C/RW Jonatan Berggren - Skelleftea, SWE JRs (2018, 33rd, DET)

Do we not want talent on our third line?
We need 3 scoring lines, And a shut down line. So yeah we definitely need talent on the 3rd line.
I agree, but think about it this way: if Detroit is not going to be contenders until Mantha and Bert are pushing 30 anyway, why not get assets for them while they still retain value. Obviously I don't think a trade is going to happen in the near future given Mantha's play and Bert's injury, but let's say a team like Montreal wants to give up significant assets to get Mantha, why shouldn't we humor them? I don't think any roster player other than Larkin should truly be untouchable, and if moving on from one of these guys helps maximize the team's future success then I'm all for it.
 
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Oh look, another thread where people inexplicably try to move our best player down to the third line

Bert might have nice counting stats this year but he was so bad before his injury. He turned the puck over every time he had the puck

I wouldn’t trade him tho. Bert is awesome and is a long term piece hopefully
 
Oh look, another thread where people inexplicably try to move our best player down to the third line

Tell me, do you expect that a team will be competitive at all if Tyler Bertuzzi is your best player as you have suggested? Let me help you with that: No. So here's how this works... either players like Mantha, Zadina, Larkin, Raymond, Rasmussen, Berggren, Veleno, etc. step up or step in and force Bertuzzi down the lineup, or you remain a bad team. So the way that I see it is pretty simple, either Bertuzzi is not one of your best 3 or 4 forwards, or Bertuzzi isn't a Red Wing. Sure, he might play on the first line, but the team is not going to be competitive if he is a foundational piece of the first line.
 
Oh look, another thread where people inexplicably try to move our best player down to the third line
We will be a winning team when guys like Bert aren't stapled to our first line because we have no better options. He's a good depth piece and plays winning hockey, but let's not act like he's irreplaceable either.

Bert might have nice counting stats this year but he was so bad before his injury. He turned the puck over every time he had the puck

I wouldn’t trade him tho. Bert is awesome and is a long term piece hopefully
I also don't want to move him for cheap or demote him unnecessarily, but if he's naturally pushed down the lineup by better, more dynamic players, then that is a good result for this team. Another good result would be capitalizing on Bert's value if he's going to be just about 30 when this team is good, if the right offer comes across Yzerman's desk.

Tell me, do you expect that a team will be competitive at all if Tyler Bertuzzi is your best player as you have suggested? Let me help you with that: No. So here's how this works... either players like Mantha, Zadina, Larkin, Raymond, Rasmussen, Berggren, Veleno, etc. step up or step in and force Bertuzzi down the lineup, or you remain a bad team. So the way that I see it is pretty simple, either Bertuzzi is not one of your best 3 or 4 forwards, or Bertuzzi isn't a Red Wing. Sure, he might play on the first line, but the team is not going to be competitive if he is a foundational piece of the first line.
I couldn't have said it better myself. We will be stuck in some kind of purgatory if none of our current crop of forward prospects turn out to be studs. I'm even willing to say that we may need to hit on a few of the guys you mentioned, less we end up in an Edmonton-type situation and be in purgatory anyway. If getting rid of Bert means that in 3 years we are more likely to be an actual contender, I'll take that deal.
 
Tell me, do you expect that a team will be competitive at all if Tyler Bertuzzi is your best player as you have suggested? Let me help you with that: No. So here's how this works... either players like Mantha, Zadina, Larkin, Raymond, Rasmussen, Berggren, Veleno, etc. step up or step in and force Bertuzzi down the lineup, or you remain a bad team. So the way that I see it is pretty simple, either Bertuzzi is not one of your best 3 or 4 forwards, or Bertuzzi isn't a Red Wing. Sure, he might play on the first line, but the team is not going to be competitive if he is a foundational piece of the first line.
Why do those guys get the opportunity to step up and push Bertuzzi down the line up but Bertuzzi is written off as unable to improve and on the verge of falling apart?

He went from wasted draft pick due to nepotism to overage vet that's blocking the REAL kids without anyone ever bothering to evaluate his ability to play hockey.
 
Why do those guys get the opportunity to step up and push Bertuzzi down the line up but Bertuzzi is written off as unable to improve and on the verge of falling apart?

He went from wasted draft pick due to nepotism to overage vet that's blocking the REAL kids without anyone ever bothering to evaluate his ability to play hockey.

Because Bertuzzi is 26 years old and established in the NHL and doesn't have the physical profile really to find another level. He's, in my opinion, an average at best skater, with nothing noteworthy in terms of game breaking talent...meaning he isn't going to skate past you, through you, dangle around you. His vision is nice, but he's not hitting seams in the defense to find an open shooter. His shot isn't going to beat goalies consistently from distance.

He's a good hockey player, but with many limitations that stand in his way from being a great hockey player. Could he still find more untapped potential, sure, but he has made no visible growth in any of these areas to make him special. He's a smart hockey player, that finds spots on the ice that help him produce. He does a lot of the little things and the greasy things really well, and there's always going to be a spot in the NHL for him, but what player with his skill set is an elite level player in the league today? At a certain point you pushed your limitations as far as you possibly can.

All that being said, I hope that your feverish faith can become reality, because nobody is going to turn away Bertuzzi if he actually shows the growth to warrant that foundational label.
 
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I agree, but think about it this way: if Detroit is not going to be contenders until Mantha and Bert are pushing 30 anyway, why not get assets for them while they still retain value. Obviously I don't think a trade is going to happen in the near future given Mantha's play and Bert's injury, but let's say a team like Montreal wants to give up significant assets to get Mantha, why shouldn't we humor them? I don't think any roster player other than Larkin should truly be untouchable, and if moving on from one of these guys helps maximize the team's future success then I'm all for it.
If the right offer is proposed then of course. It'd really suck not to see lil Bert play playoff hockey for us, but you gotta pull the trigger if the deal makes sense.
 
Almost any winning team has Bertuzzi types in their top 6, that's just how complementary players work, they help the skilled players a lot. You can't fill the top 6 with soft, skilled players, you need the Berts, Hymans, Holmstroms, Hornqvists... and these players have the intelligence and grit to follow and help.
 
Almost any winning team has Bertuzzi types in their top 6, that's just how complementary players work, they help the skilled players a lot. You can't fill the top 6 with soft, skilled players, you need the Berts, Hymans, Holmstroms, Hornqvists... and these players have the intelligence and grit to follow and help.
Sure. But until the Wings can get the elite talent that those complimentary players can compliment, we will be stuck in either the gutter or purgatory. A common theme of the players you mentioned, sans Bert, is that they played (or are playing with) franchise-level talents at least. While finding good role players is absolutely essential to any team sport, having the top-level to properly utilize those role players is even more critical for success.

To bring this back around to Berggren, I think having a guy who brings a lot of what Happy Hudler brought to the Wings (minus the high-end shot and high-end partying) would net us more offense than what Bert will provide. This is not necessarily a zero-sum game because I still wouldn't mind having Bert be the grizzled vet for us in some hypothetical playoff game and have Berggren making some magic happen with Raymond or Zadina (or whomever), that would be great. But, if I had to pick which player archetype I would prioritize from a roster construction standpoint, I'll take the guy who has the skating, passing and hockey sense to play high-leverage minutes when the team needs to score. And that's not a knock on Bert, because he's turned himself into the best hockey player he could be.
 
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And that's not a knock on Bert, because he's turned himself into the best hockey player he could be.
I believe he’s the only Red Wing with an upward trend in Pts/GP for 5 straight seasons now. He also projects as a possible impact player in the playoffs.

Berggren-Larkin-Bertuzzi would be such a good line.
 
I believe he’s the only Red Wing with an upward trend in Pts/GP for 5 straight seasons now. He also projects as a possible impact player in the playoffs.

Berggren-Larkin-Bertuzzi would be such a good line.
It absolutely could be. A line with two excellent skaters (Berggren and Larkin), two high IQ players (Berggren and Bert) with all three bringing some amount of grit sounds great to me. We need to see how Berggren performs on smaller ice before we can really project him accurately, but I'm hopeful that he'll make the adjustment.
 
Tell me, do you expect that a team will be competitive at all if Tyler Bertuzzi is your best player as you have suggested? Let me help you with that: No. So here's how this works... either players like Mantha, Zadina, Larkin, Raymond, Rasmussen, Berggren, Veleno, etc. step up or step in and force Bertuzzi down the lineup, or you remain a bad team. So the way that I see it is pretty simple, either Bertuzzi is not one of your best 3 or 4 forwards, or Bertuzzi isn't a Red Wing. Sure, he might play on the first line, but the team is not going to be competitive if he is a foundational piece of the first line.

Holmstrom

first lines aren’t always your best 3 players.
 
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Holmstrom

first lines aren’t always your best 3 players.

But your best players are the foundational pieces of your top lines. If Bertuzzi is a foundational piece of your first line, you have the league’s worst first line.

I’m not sure Berggren is the solution here, but I hope that he makes the discussion one worthy of being had. If we find ourselves debating if Bertuzzi should be forced down the lineup, that’s probably a good thing. That’s the main point.
 
Sure. But until the Wings can get the elite talent that those complimentary players can compliment, we will be stuck in either the gutter or purgatory. A common theme of the players you mentioned, sans Bert, is that they played (or are playing with) franchise-level talents at least. While finding good role players is absolutely essential to any team sport, having the top-level to properly utilize those role players is even more critical for success.

To bring this back around to Berggren, I think having a guy who brings a lot of what Happy Hudler brought to the Wings (minus the high-end shot and high-end partying) would net us more offense than what Bert will provide. This is not necessarily a zero-sum game because I still wouldn't mind having Bert be the grizzled vet for us in some hypothetical playoff game and have Berggren making some magic happen with Raymond or Zadina (or whomever), that would be great. But, if I had to pick which player archetype I would prioritize from a roster construction standpoint, I'll take the guy who has the skating, passing and hockey sense to play high-leverage minutes when the team needs to score. And that's not a knock on Bert, because he's turned himself into the best hockey player he could be.

From a roster construction standpoint, you are right, I would never argue against this. I just don't think Bertuzzi will be a third liner whenever Berggren and co are on the roster. Bertuzzi's unique skillset will most likely keep him a top 6 spot for a good part of his career. But yes, you don't build around those guys, the elite talent players are the priority, there's no doubt about it.
 
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Why do those guys get the opportunity to step up and push Bertuzzi down the line up but Bertuzzi is written off as unable to improve and on the verge of falling apart?

He went from wasted draft pick due to nepotism to overage vet that's blocking the REAL kids without anyone ever bothering to evaluate his ability to play hockey.
How many average 40-50pt players suddenly improve at the age of 26+ ?
 
How many average 40-50pt players suddenly improve at the age of 26+ ?
16-17: 0.00 pts/g (7 games)
17-18: 0.50 pts/g
18-19: 0.64 pts/g
19-20: 0.68 pts/g
20-21: 0.78 pts/g (9 games)

Look at that sudden improvement. Keep in mind from 18-19 to 19-20, the Wings Went from 2.73 G/GP to 2.00 G/GP, probably fair to assume Bert could have even better numbers on a higher scoring team.

Having watched Berggren and Raymond A LOT this season, a guy like Bertuzzi is exactly who I want in the mix with them in a future top 6. We should aim for that Pastrnak-Bergeron-Marchand line, not a Pastrnak-Bergeron-Pastrnak line.
 
The year he having this year is surprising because his stats last year weren't really great
Perhaps his stats weren't good, because he missed half the season with injuries.
Injury issues last year, not sure he was even fully healthy in the games he did play
He's been injured the past two seasons. And not many teens can play at a 0.5 PPG pace in the third best league in the world at the age of 19.
 
16-17: 0.00 pts/g (7 games)
17-18: 0.50 pts/g
18-19: 0.64 pts/g
19-20: 0.68 pts/g
20-21: 0.78 pts/g (9 games)

Look at that sudden improvement. Keep in mind from 18-19 to 19-20, the Wings Went from 2.73 G/GP to 2.00 G/GP, probably fair to assume Bert could have even better numbers on a higher scoring team.

Having watched Berggren and Raymond A LOT this season, a guy like Bertuzzi is exactly who I want in the mix with them in a future top 6. We should aim for that Pastrnak-Bergeron-Marchand line, not a Pastrnak-Bergeron-Pastrnak line.
Uhh... Bert is NOT a Marchand, not even close. His pts/game has gone up because his role and ice time has continuously gone up as well. Hes simply not a 1st line player at all.
 
Uhh... Bert is NOT a Marchand, not even close. His pts/game has gone up because his role and ice time has continuously gone up as well. Hes simply not a 1st line player at all.
But was Marchand a Marchand the first 5-6 seasons in the NHL?

Pts/GP:
0.53
0.72
0.80
0.65
0.55

But, sure, you have a point. Being on the Wings 1st line is a guarantee for production. We have seen that with Bromé.. oh. But Manth..oh. But Zad..oh. Ra.. Sve.. Ry..F...oh. I... I guess it actually isn't. I guess being on the Wings 1st line is actually kind of the worst situation you can find yourself in?
 
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But was Marchand a Marchand the first 5-6 seasons in the NHL?

Pts/GP:
0.53
0.72
0.80
0.65
0.55

But, sure, you have a point. Being on the Wings 1st line is a guarantee for production. We have seen that with Bromé.. oh. But Manth..oh. But Zad..oh. Ra.. Sve.. Ry..F...oh. I... I guess it actually isn't. I guess being on the Wings 1st line is actually kind of the worst situation you can find yourself in?
Mantha and Larkin have both scored at 70+ pt paces. Bertuzzi has not. And yes players who arent NHL calibre will not succeed. Good NHL players but not top line players will succeed with added ice time in roles above where they normally play (see:Hymen, Nash, Duclair, Vatrano, etc).

If you actually expect a Marchand like explosion in production then you're going to be MASSIVELY disappointed. Bert is a very good 40-50pt player, but that's it.
 
Mantha and Larkin have both scored at 70+ pt paces. Bertuzzi has not. And yes players who arent NHL calibre will not succeed. Good NHL players but not top line players will succeed with added ice time in roles above where they normally play (see:Hymen, Nash, Duclair, Vatrano, etc).

If you actually expect a Marchand like explosion in production then you're going to be MASSIVELY disappointed. Bert is a very good 40-50pt player, but that's it.
One doesn't need to expect a Marchand like scoring development to understand that Bertuzzi is unlikely to have reached max-scoring-potential on a team that scores 2.00 goals per game (3rd lowest scoring team in the 2000s).
Bromé was a high scorer in the SHL, he would 100% put up better numbers on the Leafs 3rd line than he does on the Wings 1st line. Look at Larkin's numbers the last seasons. It's sort of a control-sample for what is happening. He can be a 70+ Point player. He's a 50 Point guy because no one but a superstar approaches being involved in 50% of a team's overall scoring.
 
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One doesn't need to expect a Marchand like scoring development to understand that Bertuzzi is unlikely to have reached max-scoring-potential on a team that scores 2.00 goals per game (3rd lowest scoring team in the 2000s).
Bromé was a high scorer in the SHL, he would 100% put up better numbers on the Leafs 3rd line than he does on the Wings 1st line. Look at Larkin's numbers the last seasons. It's sort of a control-sample for what is happening. He can be a 70+ Point player. He's a 50 Point guy because no one but a superstar approaches being involved in 50% of a team's overall scoring.
Bertuzzi is absolutely not improving from a ~50pt player and to expect more is completely unreasonable. Hes 26, and is getting by far the most icetime and PP time he will ever get as he will be pushed down the lineup as the team actually gets good players. If Bertuzzi is one of our top 3 players we arent going to anywhere close to successful. Hes a very good 2nd/3rd line player.

Not sure why youre bringing up Broome as hes out of the league in 1-2 years from now at this pace.
 
Bertuzzi is absolutely not improving from a ~50pt player and to expect more is completely unreasonable. Hes 26, and is getting by far the most icetime and PP time he will ever get as he will be pushed down the lineup as the team actually gets good players. If Bertuzzi is one of our top 3 players we arent going to anywhere close to successful. Hes a very good 2nd/3rd line player.

Not sure why youre bringing up Broome as hes out of the league in 1-2 years from now at this pace.
This might be the most icetime and PP time that Larkin ever gets but if you think he's currently scoring at his peak potential you have a very different view of him than me.
Brome is a good example of a skilled guy getting fed top line minutes and not being able to produce. It's NOT a benefit for scoring to play on the Wings top line. Very few players can handle it.
Maybe Bert's icetime will be reduced in coming years but his numbers will likely improve. Again, expecting guys like Bertuzzi/Larkin to factor in on ~50% of team scoring is ridiculous. They're not going to get 70 points on a team that scores 140 goals.
 

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