Sens of Anarchy
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That has certainly been pointed out by many... It is what it is. I won't try to explain it.
C Marco Rossi - Ottawa 67’s, OHL (2020 Draft)
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That has certainly been pointed out by many... It is what it is. I won't try to explain it.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
I don't know how you can be taken seriously when you waste other's time for nonsense like this.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
I'm not sure I have an answer to your question. I'm not taking a view. I'm reporting facts, which you don't like.
SteveCangialosi123
Registered User
You spending paragraphs blathering about meaningless things like how there are no good centers under your arbitrary 5’10” threshold and then respond like this when proven wrong? Plus you don’t even know Rossi’s official height.
What about them do I not like, exactly? Rossi's not Finnish last I checked.
If you are "reporting facts", and aren't making any conclusions based on those facts, why exactly are you "reporting them" in this thread? Did you want people to just ignore your posts, or perhaps say "cool" and discuss completely different things instead?
Here's me reporting facts:
There are top 6 centers below 6'4" in NHL. Rossi's below 6'4", so he by his height could be a top 6 center in NHL too.
If you can't explain why half an inch of height difference stands between making NHL as a top 6 center and not doing so, then these facts aren't very meaningful.
Different angle:
Why do you think that Rossi could not become the shortest top 6 center in NHL?
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OgeeOgelthorpe
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Let's break this down a little more because I see this get tossed around a lot. There's a lot more to it than just a quick glance at the numbers show.
The number of teams above .600 win percentage in the OHL this year: 6 (excluding Ottawa, the only other team in the East above .600 was Peterborough)
Total number of teams above .600 win percentage in the OHL Western conference: 5 (London, Saginaw, Kitchener, Flint, Windsor in that order)
Ottawa played a total of 10 games against the top 5 western conference teams. Rossi played in 7 of these 10 games.
Ottawa played 6 games against Peterborough, the 2nd best team in the East. Rossi played in 5 of these games. Most of the time Ottawa as a whole did not do well against them. The games were usually low-scoring, grind it out games.
So 12 of Rossi's 56 games he only had a 1.17 PPG average.
In those 12 games Rossi's team had an average of 3.083GF, 2.916 GA.
For comparisons sake, Perfetti played 22 of 24 total games against the other top 6 teams in the OHL.
In those games he had 39 points for a PPG average of 1.77. A 0.60 PPG increase over Rossi.
In Perfetti's 4 games against the Eastern conference he had a 1.0 PPG, only 1 of those games Saginaw scored 5 GF. (Against Peterborough)
In the 18 games against the western conference teams he compiled 35 points. 1.94 PPG.
In the games that Perfetti played his team averaged 4.04 GF and 4GA. (Flint vs Saginaw had the highest averages: 4.714GF, 4.143GA in 7 games) Just under 1 GF more than ottawa, over 1 more GA than ottawa.
In the 22 games that Perfetti played against the top OHL teams, his team scored 5 or more goals 12 times. The opposition scored 5 or more goals 9 times.
In the 12 games Rossi played against the top OHL teams, Ottawa scored 5 or more goals 4 times. The opposition scored 5 or more goals 0 times.
After looking at these numbers I'd dig deeper and look at the conferences overall.
In the eastern conference only 3 teams scored above 250 goals.
In the western conference 6 teams scored above 250 goals.
I'd chalk up Rossi's lower scoring against the western conference teams to him playing more defensive, structured hockey versus the run and gun teams in the west.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
You keep responding to me on this discussion, so you clearly have an interest in it, and don't like what I'm saying.
Yes, it is true that Rossi is below 6'4. Your attempt to give facts is completely irrelevant and a bad faith argument.
The issue here seems to be that you and others keep wanting to write off the importance of the height questions surrounding Rossi's game. You are trying to argue against relevant facts. That doesn't work. You aren't going to defeat relevant facts. If you want to put forth a good faith argument, acknowledge that its an important variable, and then say that your personal opinion is that Rossi will be an exception. You are allowed to say that, but you only end up looking ridiculous when you try to deliberately play games about his height or try to argue why height is irrelevant when it's proven to not be for top 6 centers within the NHL.
Sens of Anarchy
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Way to go Ogie.. great breakdown .. makes sense as well
AB13
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Reach advantage is not really something that makes a large difference at all. Plenty of great defensive players that are not tall, a lack of reach does not prevent Konecny, Point or Marchand from being elite defensive forwards.
OgeeOgelthorpe
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When I get more time I'll look at conducting an analysis of what I call the "Chauncey Billups effect" to compare Rossi's dip in production against the opponent's.
I'd hypothesize that yes, Rossi's average PPG drops against better competition, but so does the average PPG of the other team's top centers as well. I'd also like to throw in Byfield and Perfetti into this mix to see how they also stack up. My guess is that Perfetti's competition scores at a higher pace while Byfield's stays the same.
(For those that aren't basketball fans, Billups was a point guard on the Detroit Pistons that a lot of people overlooked because his stats weren't gaudy; He could drop 30 points against the worst teams and make it look easy, but then against the best teams he'd get 15-18 points a night. What people forgot to look at was that Billups' was the best defensive point guard in the league from 2003 to 2008, and that despite his scoring average dropping against good to great teams, the top guard on the other team saw an even bigger drop in their average scoring. Guys that were normally getting 22+ points a night were getting 6-8 fewer points a game on average than they normally would when matched against Billups and the Pistons, and even when he was sadly traded to Denver for a bum like Iverson. 7 straight conference finals appearances by Billups!)
Great Panda 2
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I think there's two things that must be true from this list
Either
1) Perfetti, Rossi, and Byfield are all top 12 OHL players from that time period
Or
2) There's fact scoring is up considerably on the OHL should add context to the numbers, while being great players they shouldn't be used in isolation to prove a point regarding players from this draft.
I'll mean to the second option.
BlizzardSloth
Registered User
This article (German, August 8th) mentions that he will be training with Zurich from "next week" on. But he won't begin the season in Switzerland due to possible injuries.
HisNoodliness
Safe is death
Personally I like Rossi a good deal. I'd take Raymond or Drysdale before him, but he's my #6 prospect and I'd be happy if the Wings took him at 4. I think there is a solid argument against him having top line C upside but it can't be boiled down to just "he's less than 5'10," that's way too reductionist.
Firstly it starts with height though. He is 5'9-5'10. That's below average NHL size and will limit the total amount of muscle that he can carry. There's no 5'9 defensive linesman in the NFL because they simply can't be strong or heavy enough at that height. Hockey isn't all strength though, and at 5'9 he certainly can be strong enough to hold his own.
Generally we expect smaller players to be pretty evasive though, and that is dependent largely on skating. Here's where the scouting comes in: from my viewings, Rossi isn't a burner. He's not slow and I think many underrate his skating, but it's not elite. Braden Point and most of the effective top line smaller centers are elite skaters.
Still though, you can be just a decent skater and be quite elusive if you have otherworldly hands and intelligence. Once again though when you watch Rossi play, he plays a very industrious game. He battles for pucks in the corner and around the net. He's not out there making highlight reel dangle after dangle. Like Crosby, he's sort of a supremely skilled grinder. Once again, he flashes high level skill sometimes, it's not like he has stone hands, but his game isn't built on that. It's built on being in the right place, battling for every inch, and having enough skill to make the right play when he earns the opportunity.
Lastly we look for how much he can potentially make gains in these regards. We know that he already works out like a pro, eats like a pro and is heavy for his height. So if we're expecting him to take his lower body strength to the next level and have that carry his skating to a new level, perhaps that's less possible for him. He might already have developed most of the leg strength that he possibly can. If we're expecting that he can add as much weight as his peers and thus continue to out muscle larger players in the NHL, that too might be a difficult expectation for him to live up to.
So ultimately, can a guy of his size, with his speed and his playstyle make it as a top line NHL center? He'd be the first.
But I used Braden Point as my example earlier very purposefully. Point produced at an elite level in his draft year and was a smaller, slower player. He worked with Barb Underhill to improve his mechanics and now he's one of the fastest players in the league. Furthermore, Point doesn't have otherworldly hands or skill. He too plays a fairly industrious game, built on making the right choices, being in the right spot and being just very good at everything.
Rossi is very good at just about everything, he is a good skater, he has great hands, a great shot, sets up his teammates, plays great defensive hockey and perhaps most of all, everyone raves about how committed he is. If anyone is going to see all the right coaches, watch all the tape, practice all the time the way that they need to in order to take their game to the next level, it's him.
I said he'd be the first player like him to be a top line NHL C, and that might make it seem unlikely but he's already the first player like him to produce like he did in juniors. There simply hasn't been the opportunity for players of Rossi's size and playstyle before. There simply haven't been players like him. He's already the first. Age, year, QoC adjusted or whatever, his production this year was elite.
Like any prospect-outside the 1st and sometimes 2nd or even 3rd OA- he has question marks. To be an elite NHLer, he'll need to develop, but he's absolutely one of the best prospects in this draft and whoever picks him is getting a fantastic player. I think anyone putting a low ceiling on him is nuts, regardless of the question marks.
Firstly it starts with height though. He is 5'9-5'10. That's below average NHL size and will limit the total amount of muscle that he can carry. There's no 5'9 defensive linesman in the NFL because they simply can't be strong or heavy enough at that height. Hockey isn't all strength though, and at 5'9 he certainly can be strong enough to hold his own.
Generally we expect smaller players to be pretty evasive though, and that is dependent largely on skating. Here's where the scouting comes in: from my viewings, Rossi isn't a burner. He's not slow and I think many underrate his skating, but it's not elite. Braden Point and most of the effective top line smaller centers are elite skaters.
Still though, you can be just a decent skater and be quite elusive if you have otherworldly hands and intelligence. Once again though when you watch Rossi play, he plays a very industrious game. He battles for pucks in the corner and around the net. He's not out there making highlight reel dangle after dangle. Like Crosby, he's sort of a supremely skilled grinder. Once again, he flashes high level skill sometimes, it's not like he has stone hands, but his game isn't built on that. It's built on being in the right place, battling for every inch, and having enough skill to make the right play when he earns the opportunity.
Lastly we look for how much he can potentially make gains in these regards. We know that he already works out like a pro, eats like a pro and is heavy for his height. So if we're expecting him to take his lower body strength to the next level and have that carry his skating to a new level, perhaps that's less possible for him. He might already have developed most of the leg strength that he possibly can. If we're expecting that he can add as much weight as his peers and thus continue to out muscle larger players in the NHL, that too might be a difficult expectation for him to live up to.
So ultimately, can a guy of his size, with his speed and his playstyle make it as a top line NHL center? He'd be the first.
But I used Braden Point as my example earlier very purposefully. Point produced at an elite level in his draft year and was a smaller, slower player. He worked with Barb Underhill to improve his mechanics and now he's one of the fastest players in the league. Furthermore, Point doesn't have otherworldly hands or skill. He too plays a fairly industrious game, built on making the right choices, being in the right spot and being just very good at everything.
Rossi is very good at just about everything, he is a good skater, he has great hands, a great shot, sets up his teammates, plays great defensive hockey and perhaps most of all, everyone raves about how committed he is. If anyone is going to see all the right coaches, watch all the tape, practice all the time the way that they need to in order to take their game to the next level, it's him.
I said he'd be the first player like him to be a top line NHL C, and that might make it seem unlikely but he's already the first player like him to produce like he did in juniors. There simply hasn't been the opportunity for players of Rossi's size and playstyle before. There simply haven't been players like him. He's already the first. Age, year, QoC adjusted or whatever, his production this year was elite.
Like any prospect-outside the 1st and sometimes 2nd or even 3rd OA- he has question marks. To be an elite NHLer, he'll need to develop, but he's absolutely one of the best prospects in this draft and whoever picks him is getting a fantastic player. I think anyone putting a low ceiling on him is nuts, regardless of the question marks.
Fatass
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I’m thinking Rossi goes to the Sens at 3OA. That’s a good spot for him. He can play with other young stars like, Brady Tkatchuk.
Not sure where this idea comes from that Brayden Point was slow or a poor skater, pre-draft? He’s improved his skating, but it was always very good, it was absolutely seen as a strength in his draft year, not a weakness. Can someone link me to pre-draft scouting reports calling him slow, or a weak skater? Because that’s just not what I remember the consensus being, at all. These were typical scouting reports, from what I remember:
With that being said, I think skating is a strength for Rossi too. Phenomenal edges, very shifty/agile, great balance/strength on the puck. His top speed/acceleration is not elite, but is above average. He’s a plus skater overall IMO, just not a speed demon.
- 2014 NHL Draft Profile #44: Brayden Point
- https://thehockeywriters.com/brayden-point-the-next-ones-2014-nhl-draft-prospect-profiles/
- Brayden Point: 2014 NHL Draft Prospect Profile
- Brayden Point: Prospect Profile for Tampa Bay Lightning's 3rd-Round Pick
Point is a very good skater. He has good top end speed, very good acceleration and a quick first step. His agility and edgework are both very good, and his balance and strength on the puck is surprising for a player his size.
With that being said, I think skating is a strength for Rossi too. Phenomenal edges, very shifty/agile, great balance/strength on the puck. His top speed/acceleration is not elite, but is above average. He’s a plus skater overall IMO, just not a speed demon.
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Samsquanch
Raging Bull Squatch
I find this 2020 draft to be a funny year for scouting in that some scouts opinions seem to be all over the board on skating.
I've heard some scouts give Stutzle a 10/10 on skating, while others have said that he has limited acceleration. I've heard Lucas Raymond is a dazzling/elite skater, and others say that hes just closer to average. Same with Laffreniere... But Marco Rossi is perhaps the worst of them all in terms of varying opinions - some people seem to suggest its a big strength of his while others say its what will hold him back in the NHL... I just dont know what to believe tbh, seems to be more than fine in my limited viewings of him.
Cole Perfetti seems to be the only one that most can agree on has fairly average skating, but even then I feel like its a bit of an overblown issue that will likely not hold him or any of the above players back. Imo.
Marco Rossi trainiert beim EC-KAC | EC-KAC - Klagenfurt Eishockey
He will join the training camp of Austrian club KAC.
He will join the training camp of Austrian club KAC.
Sens of Anarchy
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Ill take that bet. I am hoping they take him at 5. Byfield/Stutzle whichever is available at 3
Hm. I think they want Drysdale at 5, and don't think Rossi will be available there anyway. Perhaps they trade down from 3 to 4, but it wouldn't surprise me if they have Rossi over Byfield.
Sens of Anarchy
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It would shock the hell out of me. I thought I was high on Rossi
I can't see them taking him at 3. If he's there at 5, absolutely you can make the case for Rossi, Raymond, Drysdale (whichever the Wings decide to pass up). Detroit could make the strong argument at 4 and it would be a good fit.
If pick 3 is on the clock, and the choices are Byfield or Rossi, I take Byfield 10/10 times. If it's Rossi/Stutzle, I could be convinced to take Rossi, but probably still go with Stutzle.
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