Confirmed Trade: [BUF/NAS] Jimmy Vesey's Draft Rights for 2016 3rd (#76) Part III

[leaflover]

Carolina wouldn't be a bad choice. They're poised for improvement into playoff territory, have a fantastic young defense and should have a top 6 opening available. That seems to cover the supposed bases.

 

[L13]

Bravo Sierra!!! He had every intentions to go UFA from the beginning and lied to Poile for over a year. He could have told Poile he would sign after his graduation right? He is a punk liar and talks about loyalty but does not know the first thing about being loyal. I hope his career is equal to his dad's and whoever signs him releases him after his 2nd year. None of these hotshot college free agents that screw their teams have panned out so far. Ego that they think they are better and smarter than the rest.

Poile said Vesey assured him he would sign with Nashville before the trade deadline. Vesey said he did no such thing.

I don't understand why people would believe Poile and brand Vesey a liar so confidently. Both parties have incentive to lie about this. I think the most sensible position here is to ignore both statements since we have no way of knowing what was truly said between them.

 

[herzausstein]

Poile said Vesey assured him he would sign with Nashville before the trade deadline. Vesey said he did no such thing.

I don't understand why people would believe Poile and brand Vesey a liar so confidently. Both parties have incentive to lie about this. I think the most sensible position here is to ignore both statements since we have no way of knowing what was truly said between them.

When Vesey brands himself as a loyal guy then repays a team that has spent large amount of scouting resources on him by not telling them until after the trade deadline that he had no intentions of signing with them, Vesey puts himself in the position to not be believed on this topic. Nashville was lucky to salvage a pick out of him and hopefully Pitlick turns out to be great.

 

[L13]

When Vesey brands himself as a loyal guy then repays a team that has spent large amount of scouting resources on him by not telling them until after the trade deadline that he had no intentions of signing with them, Vesey puts himself in the position to not be believed on this topic. Nashville was lucky to salvage a pick out of him and hopefully Pitlick turns out to be great.

You are also premising your reading of the situation on things Poile said, not Vesey's version of events, according to which he and his agent told Nashville to conduct their business without factoring in Vesey's decision months before the trade deadline. Not saying I believe Vesey, but I see no sensible reason to dismiss his statements out of hand, so I'd rather suspend judgement of both him and Poile. It's his word against Poile's.

As for the resources argument, it's nonsensical. The scouting resources Nashville 'spent' to draft Vesey were scouts' billable hours, or the opportunity cost of scouting Vesey instead of other players. They almost certainly wasted the same amount of effort on several players they did not end up drafting. Do those other players owe Nashville any loyalty for sending scouts to watch them back in the day? Of course not.

They don't because Nashville made that effort in order to bolster their prospect pool, not for Vesey's benefit, and that effort had no direct effect on him as a player. He doesn't owe them gratitude for choosing to limit his employment opportunities, which is the only implication their pre-draft scouting had for him.

Regarding the resources that went into his development post-draft, as an NCAA player Vesey was not allowed to accept payment from Nashville, so he attended Nashville development camps at his expense. Even if he hadn't paid his own way, however, Nashville, like every other NHL team, invites non-draftees to development camp every summer and provides them with room, board and a week's worth of instruction. Many of those undrafted players attend multiple teams' development camps and benefit from multiple teams' development resources. If you're such a player, to which of the 2 or 3 teams whose development camps you attended do you owe your undying loyalty? The one that spent the most money on a hotel room for you? Of course not. Professionalism and good manners may compel you to thank each team for the invitation and the provided instruction/exposure, but ultimately both the teams and the players involved understand that there is no reasonable expectation of tendering/signing an ELC contract in exchange for summer camp attendance/a camp invite. It's one opportunity for both parties to see if there's a fit between them, not a binding commitment.

As for the other assistance Nashville provided to Vesey over the course of his development, I believe that mostly boils down to their player development staff/video coaches sending him feedback regularly during Harvard's season. This is undoubtedly something Vesey should be thankful for, but it represents neither a major factor in his development nor a huge investment on Nashville's part nor, again, a binding commitment. NHL teams do this for many of their North American draft picks. Sure, it would have been swell if Nashville had known Vesey wouldn't sign there years in advance so their staff wouldn't have to watch and analyse his games at all, but that is ultimately their job. Development staff invest time in players who don't pan out, become free agents, get traded, etc. as a matter of course. In Vesey's case, they did it to sell him on Nashville/maintain open lines of communication with him just as much as they did it to help him improve as a player--or, to put it another way, they were only interested in his improvement as a player while they believed it would benefit Nashville--so both sides were getting something out of it. To suggest Vesey owes Nashville years of his career because a couple of Nashville employees gave him several cumulative weeks of theirs, which they did for Nashville, not for him, and which he never asked for, is ridiculous.

Ultimately all the effort an NHL team go to to woo their draft picks post-draft has the sole purpose of improving the team's future outlook. A drafted player, on the other hand, is looking out for his career first and foremost.

Why do fans have such a hard time granting both parties the right to act in their own best interests in such situations?

 

[BruinLVGA]

When Vesey brands himself as a loyal guy then repays a team that has spent large amount of scouting resources on him by not telling them until after the trade deadline that he had no intentions of signing with them, Vesey puts himself in the position to not be believed on this topic. Nashville was lucky to salvage a pick out of him and hopefully Pitlick turns out to be great.

The draft is a system where teams get gifted the professional rights to a player, without having had to contribute a dime to his development. In essence, it's a present that falls in their lap for zero effort, zero cost.
No one obliged Nashville to scout Vesey, nor those scouts watching his games made Vesey a better hockey player. I don't think that the Predators contributed to any cost associated with Vesey's junior career, either.
Vesey played by the rules & owes absolutely nothing to any NHL team. "Repaying scouting resources": utterly ridiculous.

It's not like in Europe where young players mature in the youth system of professional teams. Those teams have to provide a complete infrastructure to bring up kids from age 6 or so, to adulthood. There's effort and costs associated there. In North America, for a pro team? None, once a year Santa comes with a Matthews or McDavid. So, stop whining.

 

[Gnashville]

Your GM is the liar. But keep on spitting this garbage out; it's amusing.

Vesey's own words. Oh please tell me where the opportunity was not right!

“I think I'm a very loyal person and at the end of the season, if the opportunity is right, I'd like to sign with Nashville,†he said at that time.

No matter what you say Vesey should have told the Predators his plan to go Free Agent. He flat out lied to them throughout the whole process

 

[Meeqs]

Carolina wouldn't be a bad choice. They're poised for improvement into playoff territory, have a fantastic young defense and should have a top 6 opening available. That seems to cover the supposed bases.

I feel like there would be better teams than Car. Why sign there over a team like Chi for a few years to boost his numbers like crazy and cash in on his following contract.

Generally though I feel like when young players do this kind of thing they are usually have a specific team in mind that they want to go to, often a home town team.

 

[SAADfather]

Vesey's own words. Oh please tell me where the opportunity was not right!



No matter what you say Vesey should have told the Predators his plan to go Free Agent. He flat out lied to them throughout the whole process

You keep saying this but see to me that's not really lying. That's just pretty standard media trained player speak. Unless theres a quote of him saying "I'm going to sign with Nashville, he's not really lying. I'd like to =/= I'm going to. He even says "If". That doesn't at all sound like a hard yes to me.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Vesey's own words. Oh please tell me where the opportunity was not right!



No matter what you say Vesey should have told the Predators his plan to go Free Agent. He flat out lied to them throughout the whole process

Clearly the opportunity was not right and therefore he did not lie. He also owed Nashville absolutely nothing and there is no need for him to go out of his way to tell Nashville every thought he had.

 

[Der Jaeger]

-Toronto and Buffalo are in the same situation -- both have good strong prospect pools, and Toronto even has Babcock, but neither team has shown they're capable of winning anything yet, and neither has an established core (Buffalo is closer to one, but even that's in the air with Kane's issues). Toronto also can't fit Vesey in with all of their bonuses without moving someone.

Buffalo's core isn't in the air because of Kane. He was never part of it. The Buffalo core is center-defense built. O'Reilly, Eichel, Reinhart, Ristolainen. Full stop.

GM Tim Murray is looking to add another defender to that core. Rumors pointed to Fowler but it didn't pan out that way.

Kane, or Vesey for that matter, will never be part of the Buffalo core. Buffalo and owner Terry Pegula have significant scar tissue over the matter. Previous Sabres ownership and leadership would not bend team rules to give Daniel Briere and Chris Drury matching 5/$25M contracts during the 2007 season, and they let them walk. They let the entire defense walk: Brian Campbell, Henrik Tallinder, Toni Lydman, Dmitri Kalinin, and Jay McKee. Buffalo hitched their hopes to a winger/goalie dominated team build around Thomas Vanek, Jason Pominville, Drew Stafford, and Ryan Miller (who, along with Derek Roy, were called the Rochester Core due to playing together in the AHL during the lockout). When centers Derek Roy and Tim Connolly couldn't drive the team far in the playoffs, it was clear that the team needed to be torn down. No one's trading franchise centers for wingers.

Pegula inherited that type of roster when he bought the team. Hence, the tank. The purpose of the tank was to trade wingers and Ryan Miller for picks, and finish low enough to draft franchise centers and a #1 defender. That's done now.

Buffalo can lose out on Vesey. Kane can drive his value to nothing and eventually move on. The Blackhawks screwed up transactions en route to building their Cup teams (Huet, Beach, Skille, Barker) and it never hurt their core. Same thing with the Sabres. The core is built and whatever happens with Vesey or Kane doesn't change that.

 

[Gnashville]

Clearly the opportunity was not right and therefore he did not lie. He also owed Nashville absolutely nothing and there is no need for him to go out of his way to tell Nashville every thought he had.

No matter how anyone spins it he lied

 

[SAADfather]

No matter how anyone spins it he lied

Honestly, the only one spinning things here is you. I still have yet to see any direct quote saying Vesey is going to for sure sign in Nashville. Again, I'd like to =/= I'm going to. But believe me, I understand your frustration. Hawks were the last team that got screwed by a college prospect going elsewhere. Hayes was very similar to Vesey in that he said to the media that he "envisioned himself signing in Chicago after the season ends". But I hold no ill will towards Kevin Hayes. Kevin Hayes is not a liar. He took advantage of the system in place and made what he thought was the best move for his career. You owe the franchise who drafted you absolutely nothing until you sign your name in ink.

 

[Currysux*]

This is quite honestly the most laughably bad take on the Bruins situation that I've ever read. I can honestly debate your take line by line:



The defense as it current stands is pretty bad. However, they have Colin Miller and Joe Morrow ready to go this year, and Carlo, O'Gara, and Grzelcyk in Providence who could all possibly make an impact this season. Don't rule out an early season trade, either.



That's just wrong. McAvoy and Zboril, along with Carlo whom you left out, have legit #1 upside at best, but are likely 2s. They also have Lindgren, who along with Lauzon, also have #2 upside. That's 5 defenseman with #2 (or better) potential coming into the system likely in the next 2 years, some of them potentially in Boston by then. That's not even counting if the previously mentioned O'Gara and Grzelcyk work out at all. True, they lack a bonafide bluechip #1D prospect, but a whole ton of #2's might make up for that.



Glad you can see into the future. After being a borderline playoff team while working in young talent (Pastrnak, Spooner, Krug), what makes you think they're going to suddenly fall off a cliff and be way worse? The drop from Eriksson to Backes will not be that big as Backes is a better fit (even amid the supposed decline), and with everyone a year older, along with working in more high-end talent (Vatrano, possibly Heinen), they should arguably be better this year, which would actually mean a playoff berth.



Because frankly Boston is in a situation that none of those other teams are, whether you actually want to admit it or not.

-Chicago has real money problems, and with how they've treated some of their younger guys by their 2nd contracts, why would Vesey go through all this to go somewhere he'll be traded from in 2 years? That's not to mention the fact that Chicago has had to move so many picks/prospects to maintain their run that they don't really have a farm, which is why they need someone like Vesey in the first place.

-Pitt went all out going for the Cup, and are in somewhat of the same situation. They have a weak farm, which not much hope coming along any time soon, and are currently over the cap for next season.

-Toronto and Buffalo are in the same situation -- both have good strong prospect pools, and Toronto even has Babcock, but neither team has shown they're capable of winning anything yet, and neither has an established core (Buffalo is closer to one, but even that's in the air with Kane's issues). Toronto also can't fit Vesey in with all of their bonuses without moving someone.

The fact is, Boston is currently a playoff contending team, with a proven core (who I think you believe are way older than they are), as well as a top 5-10 prospect pool with legit depth at all positions, which is something pretty much no other team can say. They also don't have much in the way of money issues, and have even gone so far as to PLAN AHEAD for someone like Vesey coming in (they left both cap and bonus space available for him). Especially given that he's from Boston, why wouldn't he want to come here?

You think my statement is wrong is so you say something even more crazier? Mcavoy and Zboril dont have legit #1 upside and it's laughable you think Carlo does. They will likely be 2nd pairing dmen. If they had "legit" #1 upside they would have been picked higher than they were dont you think? They have an outside chance but it would be unlikely like Keith or Paraykp. Just because the guy has upside doesnt mean that is what they will be. Travis Dermott has #1 upside too, but its 98% likely he doesn't become that.

 

[Currysux*]

No matter how anyone spins it he lied

According to who? A sulking Poile? Your the one spinning stuff. There is no proof that Vesey actually told the Preds he would sign. Vesey is just exercising his right. I bet you didnt have this opinion when Hayes left the Hawks. If Vesey was the leaving the Hawks for Nashville you probably wouldn't be singing the same tune you are now.

 

[Jim Bob]

It's his right, the system just doesn't make sense. The MLB has it right, the NHL has it wrong

Players fall at the top end of the MLB draft all the time due to "signability" concerns.

They are not a good example of how to do things.

Players also get drafted multiple times if they go the NC$$ route.

They are far from a good example of how to do things.

I think the NHL needs to change things to a system, like the 50 contract rule, where a team gets X prospects that they own the rights to. A team only loses the rights to a player if they rescind their rights to clear space to either draft or trade for a prospect as they have hit the limit.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

You think my statement is wrong is so you say something even more crazier? Mcavoy and Zboril dont have legit #1 upside and it's laughable you think Carlo does. They will likely be 2nd pairing dmen. If they had "legit" #1 upside they would have been picked higher than they were dont you think? They have an outside chance but it would be unlikely like Keith or Paraykp. Just because the guy has upside doesnt mean that is what they will be. Travis Dermott has #1 upside too, but its 98% likely he doesn't become that.

Where do you gather your information about the Bruins from? You may want a few new sources!! As the other poster mentioned, a franchise defenseman from this group is unlikely but a very good set of top pairing defensemen is far from crazy.

 

[Djp]

When Vesey brands himself as a loyal guy then repays a team that has spent large amount of scouting resources on him by not telling them until after the trade deadline that he had no intentions of signing with them, Vesey puts himself in the position to not be believed on this topic. Nashville was lucky to salvage a pick out of him and hopefully Pitlick turns out to be great.

Vesey would have signed with Nashville if he didn't play as well in the NCAA as he did.

The draft is a system where teams get gifted the professional rights to a player, without having had to contribute a dime to his development. In essence, it's a present that falls in their lap for zero effort, zero cost.
No one obliged Nashville to scout Vesey, nor those scouts watching his games made Vesey a better hockey player. I don't think that the Predators contributed to any cost associated with Vesey's junior career, either.
Vesey played by the rules & owes absolutely nothing to any NHL team. "Repaying scouting resources": utterly ridiculous.

Remember with Vesey playing in the NCAA Nashville could not invest one dime into his development. If they did it kills his NCAA eligibility. This includes a team paying the cost yo bring a player to the team complex for a summer camp.

Where do you gather your information about the Bruins from? You may want a few new sources!! As the other poster mentioned, a franchise defenseman from this group is unlikely but a very good set of top pairing defensemen is far from crazy.

Statistically a Dman drafted in the teens likely end up as #2 or #3 Dman. Could they be a number 1... It's possibly nut not likely.

 

[Number8]

No matter how anyone spins it he lied

As fans we can all share your frustration. Given that fans of other team are excited over the prospect of getting a talented "free" asset..... you have every right to be upset that your team lost that same asset.

But it begins and ends there. Vesey was a THIRD round pick who decided to gamble and stay in school. He could have been badly injured or just plain not developed very well and risked not being signed by anyone as a result.

Turns out he won. He got a great degree and has what appears to be several teams trying to sign him for the max and for big bonus potential --- something that he may not have got if he signed his ELC as the 66th pick in the league.

He is doing something that is clearly clearly clearly within his rights under the CBA. A CBA that was negotiated by teams and players alike.

Stop making it out that he's some sort of disloyal, ingrate. It's ridiculous.

The NHL doesn't operate by indentured servitude any more.

 

[Gnashville]

According to who? A sulking Poile? Your the one spinning stuff. There is no proof that Vesey actually told the Preds he would sign. Vesey is just exercising his right. I bet you didnt have this opinion when Hayes left the Hawks. If Vesey was the leaving the Hawks for Nashville you probably wouldn't be singing the same tune you are now.

Yes I was upset at Hayes, want to check my posting history I have been against this rule since Blake Wheeler. These kids are bypassing the draft and should at least have the dignity to be honest about their plans.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Yes I was upset at Hayes, want to check my posting history I have been against this rule since Blake Wheeler. These kids are bypassing the draft and should at least have the dignity to be honest about their plans.

Your team just bought out 2 players and terminated their contracts. Why wasn't the NAS Gm honest about his plans with Nystrom when he signed him to that contract? Why didn't he tell him "Oh we're signing you for X number of years but we don't really want you for that long."

Because things change and teams and players need to do what is best for themselves.

You want it both ways: Teams can walk away from players but players can't walk away from teams. Your line about "dignity" is a laugh. What would be undignified would be for a player to get down on his hands and knees and say "Yes, Master, I will deny myself the rights written into an agreement you signed because some irrational fans will be upset if I do."

 

[Dr Quincy]

The defense as it current stands is pretty bad. However, they have Colin Miller and Joe Morrow ready to go this year, and Carlo, O'Gara, and Grzelcyk in Providence who could all possibly make an impact this season. Don't rule out an early season trade, either.



That's just wrong. McAvoy and Zboril, along with Carlo whom you left out, have legit #1 upside at best, but are likely 2s. They also have Lindgren, who along with Lauzon, also have #2 upside. That's 5 defenseman with #2 (or better) potential coming into the system likely in the next 2 years, some of them potentially in Boston by then. That's not even counting if the previously mentioned O'Gara and Grzelcyk work out at all. True, they lack a bonafide bluechip #1D prospect, but a whole ton of #2's might make up for that.

He may be underrating Boston's D prospects, but I think you are overrating them. Morrow is a borderline NHLer and at best is a #6. Same with O'Gara. And I don't think they have 3 guys with #1 potential nor 3 "likely" #2's.

They have a good collection of guys and I think together they'll make a decent group, but yes as of now I do worry that there is nobody that is a true #1.

I also think he's right that it's likely 3-4 years that these kids are ready to play big time minutes on a good team.

 

[thrillhous]

No matter how anyone spins it he lied

So you are saying that you know for a fact that at that the moment when he said those words he was not telling the truth? That at that very specific moment he didn't actually intend to sign with the Preds at the end of the season if the opportunity was right?

 

[syc]

Yes I was upset at Hayes, want to check my posting history I have been against this rule since Blake Wheeler. These kids are bypassing the draft and should at least have the dignity to be honest about their plans.

Why are you not blaming your incompetent management? oh right that wouldn't suit that agenda.

 

[riverhawkey91]

You think my statement is wrong is so you say something even more crazier? Mcavoy and Zboril dont have legit #1 upside and it's laughable you think Carlo does. They will likely be 2nd pairing dmen. If they had "legit" #1 upside they would have been picked higher than they were dont you think? They have an outside chance but it would be unlikely like Keith or Paraykp. Just because the guy has upside doesnt mean that is what they will be. Travis Dermott has #1 upside too, but its 98% likely he doesn't become that.

Have you even watched any of these prospects play, or read what anyone who actually knows what they're talking about has to say?

Admittedly, you misunderstood what I was saying....the "legit" was in reference to where their max potential would land them, i.e. as an actual #1D (not a #2/#3 acting as a #1 guy, like Phaneuf in Toronto for example)...I didn't mean it as in they're extremely likely to be #1's, which should have been evident by the rest of that line.

But I think they have more than an outside chance. If anything, they're exactly what D-men drafted in that range are -- potential #1's, likely #2s. The two players you mentioned, Keith and Parayko, were drafted in the late 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively, that's not even comparable to the situation with McAvoy/Zboril. If they were more of a lock for #1's, they would have been drafted higher...the difference between top 10 and top 20 isn't necessarily the prospect's max potential, it's how likely they are to reach it. Also, why is it laughable that I think Carlo does? Because he played very well at both U20's he attended as well as during a short stint in the AHL as a 19 year old D? Take a look around at the best Dmen in the league...there's more that fall in Carlo's range than there are guys who were taken top 5. It's laughable you think you have any idea about these prospect's future when it's clear you know nothing about them.

He may be underrating Boston's D prospects, but I think you are overrating them. Morrow is a borderline NHLer and at best is a #6. Same with O'Gara. And I don't think they have 3 guys with #1 potential nor 3 "likely" #2's.

They have a good collection of guys and I think together they'll make a decent group, but yes as of now I do worry that there is nobody that is a true #1.

I also think he's right that it's likely 3-4 years that these kids are ready to play big time minutes on a good team.

Oh I agree about Morrow, I don't think he'll be anything more than a #5 at best ever (in a Krug-like role), and I'm only slightly more optimistic about C. Miller...O'Gara is still a wild card, and could be anything. I was more just saying that they have a couple guys poised to come in and push for some time immediately, so the defense might not necessarily be as atrocious as it looks depending on how those guys' development has progressed.

I also don't think it's a stretch at all to say McAvoy and Zboril have #1 upside, that's entirely what the B's drafted them to be. I added Carlo as he has looked the part so far as well, even though that's a bit above the projection from his draft slot. I don't think any of them will be high-end #1s in the manner of Doughty/Weber/Hedman etc, but I think they definitely have a shot at being in lower half of the real #1s, which if they miss, would still leave them as #2s. And as for time frame, Carlo could compete for a spot as early as this year, and depending on when he leaves college, McAvoy will probably step right in. If you meant when they're ready to run the team on their own, sure 3-4+ years, but as far as making an impact, I think 3-4 is an at-worst scenario.

I wasn't trying to turn this into (yet another) debate about the Bruins prospect pool, other than to show they absolutely have a top 10 pool along with a highly competitive core, with makes them the only team in the running for Vesey who can say that...that seems like a pretty good reason for why Vesey might want to sign here to me.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Why are you not blaming your incompetent management? oh right that wouldn't suit that agenda.

The Preds are regularly competitive, well-managed from a cap standpoint, were able to offer Vesey a chance at a top 6 roster spot and attempted to get him signed each of the last two seasons. Criticize Poile and the organization for naivety perhaps, but incompetence?