Blue Jays Discussion: Blue Jays acquire TROY TULOWITZKI... did I mention his idol is Derek Jeter?

[Longshot]

I'm guessing you don't know who tulo is, and u havnt watched the jays in quite sometime. I'm upset with losing Hoffman too, but reyes was such a liability in the field

I have Tulo on my fantasy team. And I watch the Jays every night.

Tell me, how is the starting pitching and bullpen any better after this deal?

Yesterday, those were the two main problems everybody was braying about.

Now, they go out and get a big name and it's like those problems don't exist.

 

[BlueForever]

This move signals that the Jays are about to make another deal shortly. We need an upgrade on Doubrount in the 5th spot. Which wont cost us one of our remaining top pitching prospects in Osuna, or Sanchez, or Stroman, or Norris, or Boyd. Upgrading the rotation with someone that can go out and pitch every 5th day from now until the end of the season will instantly make our rotation better. No need for an ace at this point.

Now actually you have options, instead of going for a starter only you can go get a closer like Kimbrel or Chapman and move Sanchez back into the rotation. Or simply go get a 2-5 starter which wont cost you Norris. Should be interesting.

 

[LaCarriere]

They have the best run differential in the game, by a mile, already and are a .500 team.

This does nothing to address to starting pitching concerns and leaves them with two less assets to do that.

I can't believe how angry I am right now.

An injury prone SS with a bad contract... Where have I heard that song before?

Bottom line: they aren't going anywhere with Dickey, Hutch and Doubront making three out of every five starts.

But unusual doesn’t mean incorrect. While I’m sure there will be plenty of people arguing that the Blue Jays should have taken the path of least resistance and upgraded the pitching staff instead, the reality in baseball is that a run is a run is a run. You win games by outscoring your opponents, and you don’t get any less credit for winning 7-5 than you do 5-3. Troy Tulowitzki will help the Blue Jays score more runs, so while he’s not going to help the team’s run prevention improve that much, those runs he creates will still count in the final tally.

...

How big is that upgrade? Over the remainder of this season, the gap between the two shortstops is estimated at roughly one win, or roughly the same upgrade the Astros got by adding Scott Kazmir to their rotation, and again, that’s without considering the non-linear nature of run scoring. So, while going from Reyes to Tulowitzki might not be quite as impactful in 2015 value as landing a guy like Johnny Cueto, the upgrade is along the same lines as adding any of the next tier of pitchers.


for all the advanced stats that get thrown around here, it seems silly to avoid the obvious.

 

[Longshot]

And this is why Toronto sports fans have such a bad rep, give your head a shake. What if Hoffman and/or Castro are the next Marty Janzen or Todd Van Poppel? Than what, you would complain that they should have traded these guys for proven players. No clue

How is the Jays starting pitching and bullpen any better after this deal?

Can you answer that?

Two prime prospects are gone and they haven't addressed the main two issues.

Are you even reading what I'm saying?

 

[Bjindaho]

And this is why Toronto sports fans have such a bad rep, give your head a shake. What if Hoffman and/or Castro are the next Marty Janzen or Todd Van Poppel? Than what, you would complain that they should have traded these guys for proven players. No clue

Hoffman has similar hype to Janzen or Karsay

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I'm guessing you don't know who tulo is, and u havnt watched the jays in quite sometime. I'm upset with losing Hoffman too, but reyes was such a liability in the field

He's entitled to his opinion. You did use a 60 FV and 50 FV prospect to get the deal done, and those are assets that could have been used to acquire a pitcher. His beef is with asset allocation and opportunity cost.

 

[LaCarriere]

I have Tulo on my fantasy team. And I watch the Jays every night.

Tell me, how is the starting pitching and bullpen any better after this deal?

Yesterday, those were the two main problems everybody was braying about.

Now, they go out and get a big name and it's like those problems don't exist.

Nobody is saying the starting pitching still isn't a problem -- they just chose to improve the team in another way.

Also, the bullpen does get a boost with Hawkins, especially if that means we don't see any more of Tepera.

 

[kessel]

The trade deadline has not passed yet. AA still has sometime to try to add a quality starting pitcher and they still have some pieces left in the minors. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SLYhMuiHGbLMYHUEqduAPk6ZF0q52xTZaT0tRNRY6jw/pubhtml

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

I'm guessing you don't know who tulo is, and u havnt watched the jays in quite sometime. I'm upset with losing Hoffman too, but reyes was such a liability in the field

Do you really think the jays are a 500 club is because of Reyes' fielding?

 

[Stats01]

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN 4m4 minutes ago
The Toronto Blue Jays have the surplus and the option to move a hitter, with the addition of Troy Tulowitzki, but won't do that this summer.

Looks like if another deal gets completed it'll be strictly prospects. Personally I'll be shocked if another move isn't made in the next 3 days.

 

[Longshot]

But unusual doesn’t mean incorrect. While I’m sure there will be plenty of people arguing that the Blue Jays should have taken the path of least resistance and upgraded the pitching staff instead, the reality in baseball is that a run is a run is a run. You win games by outscoring your opponents, and you don’t get any less credit for winning 7-5 than you do 5-3. Troy Tulowitzki will help the Blue Jays score more runs, so while he’s not going to help the team’s run prevention improve that much, those runs he creates will still count in the final tally.

...

How big is that upgrade? Over the remainder of this season, the gap between the two shortstops is estimated at roughly one win, or roughly the same upgrade the Astros got by adding Scott Kazmir to their rotation, and again, that’s without considering the non-linear nature of run scoring. So, while going from Reyes to Tulowitzki might not be quite as impactful in 2015 value as landing a guy like Johnny Cueto, the upgrade is along the same lines as adding any of the next tier of pitchers.


for all the advanced stats that get thrown around here, it seems silly to avoid the obvious.

Okay, when I read that, I see: they upgraded, but not by much.

So, what was the point?

And, serious question. Are Tulo's offensive numbers inflated by playing at Coors Field?

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

Goodbye Stroman.

 

[inthe6ix]

Noooooo not Hoff!

Not impressed we also got a 42 yr old dino for one of our top ace prospects and Castro. AA better be all in for another SP - if this is it, the trade looks superficial at best - moving around deck chairs on the Titanic!

Anyhow, on the plus side, hopefully Reyes' departure finally means we won't have to see that stupid 'stir the pot, we've got some cooking' motion from all the boys after a hit. Maybe they can just play some solid team ball and get us into the WC instead of all the unnecessary antics.

 

[RipCityPuckers]

And who do they have left to trade for starting pitching?

Unless they're planning to completely empty the cupboard, it's unlikely they can make another significant move.

And I didn't say anything about Tulo or Reyes. I'm upset they have traded two of their best pitching prospects and haven't address the main issue with the team: starting pitching.

You weren't going to get a top end starter regardless.

Cueto is gone, Price is a free agent at the end of the year so have to guess he wouldn't have been a fit. Hamels was a possibility I guess but Stroman would have likely had to have been involved and with so many other teams after him it wouldn't have even been a done deal with him involved

And even according to reports, the Jays made a huge offer (Hoffman, Pompey, +) to Cleveland for Carassco that got rejected

When a player like Tulo becomes available and you have a chance to make a deal you don't wait to see what else you can do, you run to add a player of that caliber

A deal involving Samardzija and potentially someone like Norris is still very much a reality so I'd relax and calm down and just enjoy that your team just added the best shortstop in the entire game

 

[Bjindaho]

He's entitled to his opinion. You did use a 60 FV and 50 FV prospect to get the deal done, and those are assets that could have been used to acquire a pitcher. His beef is with asset allocation and opportunity cost.

One thing I do like about AA is that he isn't afraid to trade his guys if there's someone he likes. Previous regimes have traded away their predecessor's farm but then not stocked up. AA seems to have a pretty good idea how he's going to re-tool while still making prospects available. This reminds me more of the Gillick approach.

If a fraction of your prospects make it, why not trade the guys you don't think will make your team (or who aren't a sure thing) for guys who are already big leaguers (assuming they fit).

We got Reyes because we needed a shortstop badly. The difference between what Reyes is now and what a healthy Tulo is is around the difference from young Arencibia (before he stopped walking altogether) to Martin.

 

[theaub]

Noooooo not Hoff!

Not impressed we also got a 42 yr old dino for one of our top ace prospects and Castro. AA better be all in for another SP - if this is it, the trade looks superficial at best - moving around chairs on the Titanic!

Anyhow, on the plus side, hopefully Reyes' departure finally means we won't have to see that stupid 'stir the pot, we've got some cooking' motion from all the boys after a hit. Maybe they can just play some solid team ball and get us into the WC instead of all the unnecessary antics.

um

There were like two other pieces in this trade that are pretty important to use when evaluating.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Goodbye Stroman.

Lol. Wtf is this?

 

[King Mapes]

Love this trade.

I wonder if Votto can come via trade involving Bautista + Encarnacion.

I think a top 5 of

Travis
Donaldson
Votto
Tulowitzki
Martin

looks better than

Travis
Donaldson
Bautista
Encarnacion
Martin

Less HRs but higher avg hitting.

Fantasy aside, PLEASE re-sign Anthopoulous. I don't think the Jays organization will be able to find anyone to top him any time soon.

No.. It's not. Then we wouldn't have Travis hitting 9th to turn the lineup over. Bautista + EE for Votto? Dear lord

I think Pompey is now being shopped. Though if he isn't he could make a great lead off hitter if his bat improves. Imagine, with his speed, if he could hit 260-270 even? Then Tulo, Donaldson, Bautista, EE, Martin.

But Pompey and Norris are definitely named being brought up in trade talks. What kind of pitcher could we get?

Hawkins, Osuna, Schultz, Delabar, Loup... Suddenly our BP looks good. Sanchez likely back to starting.

 

[LaCarriere]

Okay, when I read that, I see: they upgraded, but not by much.

So, what was the point?

And, serious question. Are Tulo's offensive numbers inflated by playing at Coors Field?

Probably to a degree. It's widely recognized as one of the most hitter friendly parks due to the altitude, but it's not like Rogers Centre is a pitcher's haven either.

Also, most players aren't going to give you more than +1.0 - 1.5 WAR over the player they are replacing at this point in the season. A projected 1 win improvement over an already positive WAR player is a pretty decent upgrade at this point in the season.

 

[Longshot]

Anyhow, on the plus side, hopefully Reyes' departure finally means we won't have to see that stupid 'stir the pot, we've got some cooking' motion from all the boys after a hit. Maybe they can just play some solid team ball and get us into the WC instead of all the unnecessary antics.

Actually that move is a "reel in the runners" signal! Like a fishing pole. I didn't know what he was doing either until someone posted it in the game day thread, or maybe Buck and Pat mentioned it.

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

Lol. Wtf is this?

Do you really think we are acquiring an ace and a closer with assets not involving Stroman?

 

[rojac]

Probably to a degree. It's widely recognized as one of the most hitter friendly parts due to the altitude, but it's not like Rogers Centre is a pitcher's haven either.

Also, most players aren't going to give you more than +1.0 - 1.5 WAR over the player they are replacing at this point in the season. A projected 1 win improvement over an already positive WAR player is a pretty decent upgrade at this point in the season.

I saw somewhere that Tulo's stats are actually better on the road than at Coors.

 

[Bjindaho]

Okay, when I read that, I see: they upgraded, but not by much.

So, what was the point?

And, serious question. Are Tulo's offensive numbers inflated by playing at Coors Field?

Short answer, yes...http://www.fangraphs.com/statsplits.aspx?playerid=3531&position=SS&season=0

Long answer, not by a whole lot and he's moving to a bandbox. Keep in mind, when he isn't in Colorado, he plays the majority of his road games in San Francisco, San Diego, Arizona and LA (aka collectively the worst division for hitting parks in the Majors even when considering Colorado is in the division).

 

[theaub]

Do you really think we are acquiring an ace and a closer with assets not involving Stroman?

I still don't see why we need to acquire an ace or a top tier closer.

 

[inthe6ix]

You weren't going to get a top end starter regardless.

Cueto is gone, Price is a free agent at the end of the year so have to guess he wouldn't have been a fit. Hamels was a possibility I guess but Stroman would have likely had to have been involved and with so many other teams after him it wouldn't have even been a done deal with him involved

And even according to reports, the Jays made a huge offer (Hoffman, Pompey, +) to Cleveland for Carassco that got rejected

When a player like Tulo becomes available and you have a chance to make a deal you don't wait to see what else you can do, you run to add a player of that caliber

A deal involving Samardzija and potentially someone like Norris is still very much a reality so I'd relax and calm down and just enjoy that your team just added the best shortstop in the entire game

And if Samardzija ends up costing us Stro, is it still time to relax?

The cupboard is bare - nobody wants Norris or Sanchez in a package deal for an ace, or they would have been gone by now. That would couldn't get Kazmir for any of our prospects, should say something in itself.