Blue Jays Discussion: Blue Jays acquire TROY TULOWITZKI... did I mention his idol is Derek Jeter?

[KuleminFan41]

So the Jays once again mortgage the future rotation for a question mark injury prone hitter. Time to get a real GM this is getting ridiculous.

Troy Tulowitzki is 30 years old. Has played in 87 out of 97 games so far this season, which is almost more than he played all of last season at 97 games. AA has done a pretty fine job but to suggest he "mortgaged" the future is insane. People like you need to understand that you need to give up in order to get. Jays won 2 world series making trades similar to this one. How do you think the Jays got Joe Carter, Roberto Alomar, Rickey Henderson or David Cone?

 

[BlueForever]

But how does it work for visiting players?

I get he needs a work Visa, but couldn't he just play tonight like he's a visitor until that paperwork is ready?

I would think so. I don't think teams don't have their players already lined up with the ability to play in Canada. And if I am not mistaken a work visa is not needed for athletes.

 

[janesy12]

A pitching move would be welcomed sooner, rather than later. Every game counts.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Troy Tulowitzki is 30 years old. Has played in 87 out of 97 games so far this season, which is almost more than he played all of last season at 97 games. AA has done a pretty fine job but to suggest he "mortgaged" the future is insane. People like you need to understand that you need to give up in order to get. Jays won 2 world series making trades similar to this one. How do you think the Jays got Joe Carter, Roberto Alomar, Rickey Henderson or David Cone?

But the question is why did we need to get in the areas we did with Tulo? Why not address larger weaknesses? The painfully obvious answer is of course that Tulo is quality, but we're only going to maintain solid D and a top-3 offense, but we're still a .500 club. Why move prospects for a lateral move? Or am I way off?

 

[calcal798]

Troy Tulowitzki is 30 years old. Has played in 87 out of 97 games so far this season, which is almost more than he played all of last season at 97 games. AA has done a pretty fine job but to suggest he "mortgaged" the future is insane. People like you need to understand that you need to give up in order to get. Jays won 2 world series making trades similar to this one. How do you think the Jays got Joe Carter, Roberto Alomar, Rickey Henderson or David Cone?

By giving up nothing of value, hoarding prospects and taking no risks?

 

[LaCarriere]

I didn't say any of that.

I was disappointed and angry with the trade because they used prospect capital to acquire a player that doesn't help the team's two biggest needs: starting pitching and bullpen help (I don't view Hawkins as a big improvement).

That is a perfectly legitimate response to this deal.

There is no "sky is falling" aspect to my concern or "real GM" kind of snark.

And, there are real concerns about Tulo's health status, contract and possible decline (others have posted his lower walk rate and higher strikeout rate this year).

All of these are issues with Reyes too, except Reyes has already showed some pretty significant decline. He can barely pass as a right handed batter anymore, and defensively he's been a complete nightmare in July with 8 errors. Tulo has 8 errors all season in more innings/games. Look at their fielding % this year, or UZR/150 over the last 2-3 seasons. Reyes has started to implode defensively, and this is the first year since 2005 that he's had a below average bat, sitting at a 95 wRC+. If he's providing an above average bat you can somewhat turn a blind eye to his increasingly horrible defense, but his bat is starting to slip too.

With Tulo they basically set the reset button on Reyes at the position, and get a second shot at getting more than two useful years out of a top SS before decline starts to set in. Tulo's actually been healthier than Reyes this year as well.

 

[Eyedea]

What did they get out of? Tulo has a longer deal, for similar money and he's 29-years-old. The contract matter is a wash. He's signed through 2020 at big money. Reyes' deal was done after next year.

EDIT: My mistake, Reyes deal is longer than I thought. I thought the option kicked in after next year.

Dan Szymborski, ESPN analyst and ZiPS creator brought up some good points about contracts.

ZiPS has Tulo's contract at a 40m surplus value. Reyes' is at -20m. ZiPS doesn't even project Tulo to have one season >=120 games. Would anybody right now pay Reyes 55m over 2.3 years? His contract is a negative whereas Tulo's is a positive. It very well may not be a positive 4+ years from now, but the amount of value he is projected to attain is astronomically higher than what he is getting paid. Does Hoffman, Castro, and Tinoco represent the 60m + change difference that comes between Reyes and Tulo+Hawkins? Likely not.

It's the same when looking at Hamels for example. Sure he gets paid a ridiculous AAV at 23.5m, but he provides surplus value on top of that. Reyes is currently a sunk cost.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

But the question is why did we need to get in the areas we did with Tulo? Why not address larger weaknesses? The painfully obvious answer is of course that Tulo is quality, but we're only going to maintain solid D and a top-3 offense, but we're still a .500 club. Why move prospects for a lateral move? Or am I way off?

Way off.

Opportunity cost is an understandable concern, but this is very similar to those who complained about the Russell Martin signing.

 

[TF97]

Any word if the presser will be on SN?

 

[ryno23]

New lineup?

2B - Travis
3B - Donaldson
RF - Bautista
SS - Tulo
DH - EE
C - Martin
1B - Smoak
LF - Collabello
CF - Pillar

Put Smoak at 1B and field your best infield and really the only spot on the field that plays subar D is the LF whomever we put out there.

This lineup will mash even more now so hopefully the pitching can keep runs against under 12 and they have a shot to win any night

 

[Quares27]

Sucks to have to lose Hoffman but at least we didnt lose one of the absolute best young arms like Stroman, Sanchez, Norris, Osuna. And we got the best SS in the game, AA is doing work man

At this point other than Norris i'd be fine with trading anyone in the minors for a starter whether its Pompey or whoever else. We have to go all-in now

 

[selltrade]

So Hoffman and Castro are gone but still plenty of good pitching prospects both on the big club Stroman (injured) Sanchez and Osuna... Triple A has Norris and the lower levels has Sean Reid Foley, Jairo Labourt, Matt Smoral, Ryan Borucki, Albert Tirado, Jon Harris, Matt Boyd and Nick Wells. This is why you keep drafting pitching all things being equal... Hoffman hurts though

 

[KuleminFan41]

But the question is why did we need to get in the areas we did with Tulo? Why not address larger weaknesses? The painfully obvious answer is of course that Tulo is quality, but we're only going to maintain solid D and a top-3 offense, but we're still a .500 club. Why move prospects for a lateral move? Or am I way off?

Because Tulowitzki is that good, came at a decent price and at the end of the day the Jays are a better team defensively and offensively because of this move. You're talking as if the Jays aren't actively trying to get a pitcher but getting a good pitcher for the rotation with some control isn't going to come easy and it takes 2 to make that deal. You're going to have to "mortgage" the future but what needs to be remembered here is the Jays still have Sanchez and Stroman and Drew Hutchison is only 24 years old

 

[tooncesmeow]

Pitching
please
dear god
need pitching
we already destroy the league with bats we need pitchers

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I'd go back to the Phillies and ask if Hamels has changed his mind..

 

[dubplatepressure]

Because Tulowitzki is that good, came at a decent price and at the end of the day the Jays are a better team defensively and offensively because of this move. You're talking as if the Jays aren't actively trying to get a pitcher but getting a good pitcher for the rotation with some control isn't going to come easy and it takes 2 to make that deal. You're going to have to "mortgage" the future but what needs to be remembered here is the Jays still have Sanchez and Stroman and Drew Hutchison is only 24 years old

Good point. Tulo's value is not lost on me, for sure. Just surprised that we didn't go after one of the aces with that package.

 

[Amadeus]

Go big.

Shelby Miller. Chris Archer.

 

[Bad News Benning]

I imagine that Donaldson will be dealt in his final year of control and Tulo will be shifted to 3B.

Now with the argos gone I wonder if this speeds up the chances of getting grass in the rogers center. I don't see what's stopping them from making the change this winter. It's well worth the time and energy if it helps injury prevention. Maybe fix the Dunedin facilities while they are at it....damn sprinklers.

 

[Gargyn]

Not sureI like the deal. Reyes stunk defensively but was a solid leadoff option at the plate. Tulo has seen all his numbers drop and is a health risk. Now what prospects can be moved for pitching help without depleting our system? This team NEEDS pitching. It NEEDS two top starters to be a contender.

 

[mikeyz]

New lineup?

2B - Travis
3B - Donaldson
RF - Bautista
SS - Tulo
DH - EE
C - Martin
1B - Smoak
LF - Collabello
CF - Pillar

Put Smoak at 1B and field your best infield and really the only spot on the field that plays subar D is the LF whomever we put out there.

This lineup will mash even more now so hopefully the pitching can keep runs against under 12 and they have a shot to win any night

I love that batting lineup.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I'd go back to the Phillies and ask if Hamels has changed his mind..

Yup and if you have to give up Stroman to make it work, so be it

 

[theaub]

Tulo + Norris for Carrasco + Lindor

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Sucks to have to lose Hoffman but at least we didnt lose one of the absolute best young arms like Stroman, Sanchez, Norris, Osuna. And we got the best SS in the game, AA is doing work man

At this point other than Norris i'd be fine with trading anyone in the minors for a starter whether its Pompey or whoever else. We have to go all-in now

Actually, this move means you don't have to go all in right now. You've extended the window of your core to now correspond with Donaldson's controlled years.

 

[Discoverer]

Big shock, Greg Zaun said he doesn't think giving up Hoffman was a big deal...

Zaun's Twitter take on the deal was that the Jays acquired "2 old school grinders." I think that really speaks to Zaun's mentality/ability as an analyst: the fact that they acquired the best SS in the game is secondary to his status as a grinder.

 

[le_sean]

But the question is why did we need to get in the areas we did with Tulo? Why not address larger weaknesses? The painfully obvious answer is of course that Tulo is quality, but we're only going to maintain solid D and a top-3 offense, but we're still a .500 club. Why move prospects for a lateral move? Or am I way off?

Reyes wasn't very good and pitchers can be had in the offseason as FAs. There are no Tulowitzkis available in the summer.