Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes

[BigMac1212]

Look, I'd be pretty pissed if I was on the verge of losing my team too, but let's not get delusional here.

I think NHL hockey can still succeed in Phoenix, but it's not going to happen unless bankruptcy voids the lease in Glendale and allows the Coyotes to move back downtown.

Saying that Phoenix was not a hockey town before the coyotes came is both ignorant and dulusional.

 

[kombayn]

There are only 3 options the Coyotes can do...

1) Take control of the team, keep them in Glendale and rename them the Arizona Coyotes (They need to market the team to the entire state like the Cardinals & D-Backs).

2.) Take control of the team, cancel the lease and move this team to Las Vegas. I think it would take balls but would be a success in the city overall.

3.) Lets Basillie buy the team, move them to Southern Ontario and rename them the Hamilton Jets! Trust me, it would be P.R. marketing bliss for the NHL in Canada. Basillie would own the logo, team-name, colors, etc. if he is able to acquire the team.

I think option 3 is the best. Already 3 other teams are struggling financially and that's the Atlanta Thrashers, New York Islanders & Tampa Bay Lightning. Relocation is coming for at least one of those teams and it's either to Kansas City or Portland. I think Kansas City will get 1 team whether it be NBA (Kings) or NHL and stick to that only.

 

[bhawk24bob]

Saying that Phoenix was not a hockey town before the coyotes came is both ignorant and dulusional.

Supporting a minor league team doesn't make one a hockey town.

By your logic, Cedar Rapids, IA is a hockey town because it supports the Roughriders.

 

[kdb209]

Sorry for going off topic, but there was hockey in Phoenix before the Coyotes came. I came to the Valley of the sun in the summer of 1992, and the Arizona Veterans Memorail Coliseum was packed during Roadrunners game. If it wasn't for the Roadrunners, there's no way in **** that the Jets move to Phoenix.

That's just the truth.

Yup - the Roadrunners have been around in various incarnations since 1967 and there was even an earlier team in the 50's.

Cut-and-pasting from earlier in this thread:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/...tname=&tcity=Phoenix&tstate=&tleague=&y1=&y2=

Phoenix Apaches (Phoenix, AZ) - 1958-1959 - California Hockey League (1954-1963)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1967-1974 - Pacific Coast Hockey League (1944-1952) - Western Hockey League (1952-1974)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1974-1977 - World Hockey Association (1972-1979)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1977-1979 - Pacific Hockey League (1977-1979)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1977-1978 - Central Professional Hockey League (1963-1968) - Central Hockey League (1968-1984)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1989-1997 - International Hockey League (1945-2001)
Phoenix Cobras (Phoenix, AZ) - 1993-1995 - Roller Hockey International (1992-1999)
Phoenix Coyotes (Phoenix, AZ) - 1996-2009 - National Hockey League (1917-2009)
Phoenix Mustangs (Phoenix, AZ) - 1997-2001 - West Coast Hockey League (1995-2003)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 2005-2009 - East Coast Hockey League (1988-2009)

 

[BigMac1212]

Supporting a minor league team doesn't make one a hockey town.

By your logic, Cedar Rapids, IA is a hockey town because it supports the Roughriders.

Now that's some sort of logical error.

BTW, look up at the earlier post...

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Phoenix had hockey before the Coyotes came. Pretty obivous you know little about the Valley of the Sun.

Just because you HAD hockey does not mean it was some crazy hockey town. I don't think you understand.

Just because you have some podunk little minor league team does not make your city a big time hockey town.

 

[RR]

As carpenter and others have stated about 1000 times before, and I will state it one last time, a judge can not change the basic terms of a contract. It may very well be, and probably is, that the franchise agreement is for a team in Phoenix - not for a team in XYZABCD location.

As such, the judge may very well award the team to JB, but it is doubtful that there is much he/she would be able to do in terms of forcing the NHL to allow JB to relocate the team.

I'm not sure what JB can do if the BoG votes against the move - this is probably why he has started this rediculous PR compaign to try and force the NHL into allowing the move.

I think Balsillie's bottom line is a team in southern Ontario, period. He could give a crap whether it's the Coyotes, another team or an expansion team.

He saw the uniqueness of this situation (the bankruptcy) as his opportunity to mount a legal challenge to the league's contention that it, and only it, decides who owns a team and where the team plays. He knew this would tick the league off and that it would start a huge legal fight, but he must believe that he will prevail at some level legally in the process, otherwise he's gained nothing.

One legal ruling in his favor and he could be positioned to offer the league his willingness to withdraw his offer and avoid the long legal battle in exchange for another team or, more likely, an expansion team.

At that point does the league dig in its heels and risk the long and expensive legal fight that could end up with Balsillie prevailing and the league losing its control over all franchies? I think not, I think they strike a deal and the Coyotes stay put, Balsillie gets his team, and it will be up to someone else to legally challenge the NHL's authority to control its franchisees.

 

[RTN]

You didn't go to a roadrunners game before the Coyotes came, have you?

See my point? Phoenix is a hockey town no matter what lieks Jonathan puts up.

Phoenix is not a hockey town. One day it could be a city with a successful NHL hockey team in it, it's just not a "hockey town." There's nothing wrong with that, the NHL could still be in Phoenix and be fairly successful, it's just not a town that will have hockey on the front page of the sports section for a third of the year.

 

[BigMac1212]

Just because you HAD hockey does not mean it was some crazy hockey town. I don't think you understand.

Just because you have some podunk little minor league team does not make your city a big time hockey town.

Have you seen the earlier post? We had a team in the WHL, WHA, and the IHL.

Sheesh, this ignorance of Phoenix is ming bogling.

 

[BigMac1212]

Let me post this again:

Phoenix Apaches (Phoenix, AZ) - 1958-1959 - California Hockey League (1954-1963)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1967-1974 - Pacific Coast Hockey League (1944-1952) - Western Hockey League (1952-1974)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1974-1977 - World Hockey Association (1972-1979)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1977-1979 - Pacific Hockey League (1977-1979)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1977-1978 - Central Professional Hockey League (1963-1968) - Central Hockey League (1968-1984)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1989-1997 - International Hockey League (1945-2001)
Phoenix Cobras (Phoenix, AZ) - 1993-1995 - Roller Hockey International (1992-1999)
Phoenix Coyotes (Phoenix, AZ) - 1996-2009 - National Hockey League (1917-2009)
Phoenix Mustangs (Phoenix, AZ) - 1997-2001 - West Coast Hockey League (1995-2003)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 2005-2009 - East Coast Hockey League (1988-2009)

Not a hockey town? Only the ignorant would say such a thing.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Have you seen the earlier post? We had a team in the WHL, WHA, and the IHL.

Sheesh, this ignorance of Phoenix is ming bogling.

Big whoop.

All those teams folded.

I wonder why?

Maybe due to Phoenix not being a hockey town!

 

[bhawk24bob]

Now that's some sort of logical error.

BTW, look up at the earlier post...

You're not helping yourself here, nor are you going to fool anybody into thinking that Phoenix is a hockey town.

All I have to do is look over the course of the Coyotes history and see that they've consistently been in the bottom third of attendance to know either 1) Phoenix isn't a hockey town or 2) Phoenix is a hockey town that disguises itself as a town that doesn't support its team

 

[Brodie]

I think Jonathan and BigMac are arguing over a difference in terminology. Jonathan contends that the presence of a team does not equal popularity, while BigMac contends that the presence of a team makes it a hockey town.

I think we can all agree hockey is far from extremely popular in Phoenix (unlike Canada or some northern US markets) but that it still has a long history of pro hockey.

 

[Valic]

So, by this rational, Quebec City isn't a hockey city, becuase it has no professional or minor league team. I know you're going to try to defend yourself, but I've just exposed you for the hypocrite you are.

Quebec isn't getting a team, We are talking about Southern Ontario.

 

[guinness]

Have you seen the earlier post? We had a team in the WHL, WHA, and the IHL.

Sheesh, this ignorance of Phoenix is ming bogling.

So Phoenix had minor league teams, but what are the youth leagues like? Back home, the Detroit-area has had oodles of kids teams, hell, even around the Bay area, especially SJ, there are lots of youth teams, and their fans are pretty passionate about the Sharks, but it helps that they've gotten their kids into hockey (or maybe it was the kids that got the parents into the Sharks), but it does seem to take the kids to like hockey, to want youth teams, that help build the foundation for a successful NHL franchise.

Winning games helps no doubt too, but what kind of foundation have the 'Yotes helped to build?

 

[BigMac1212]

You got me. Quebec City is not a hockey town.

My whole point is destroyed. Oh noez!

So, will you say Phoenix is at least hockey knowledgeable?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Will you then say that Quebec city is not a hockey town because it lacks a pro or minor league hockey club? If you have an ounce of credibility you will say yes.

Quebec City certainly isn't a future home for a NHL team.

Hockey is embedded into the culture up there, but they cannot support a pro team.

Hockey is not embedded in the culture in Phoenix and they also cannot support a pro team.

There is a huge difference in the two.

 

[bhawk24bob]

Will you then say that Quebec city is not a hockey town because it lacks a pro or minor league hockey club? If you have an ounce of credibility you will say yes.

You are missing the point - having a team/not having a team does not make one a "hockey town" - it's about the culture and what interests people in comparison to the other sports that its population follows

 

[Brodie]

I think Balsillie's bottom line is a team in southern Ontario, period. He could give a crap whether it's the Coyotes, another team or an expansion team.

He saw the uniqueness of this situation (the bankruptcy) as his opportunity to mount a legal challenge to the league's contention that it, and only it, decides who owns a team and where the team plays. He knew this would tick the league off and that it would start a huge legal fight, but he must believe that he will prevail at some level legally in the process, otherwise he's gained nothing.

One legal ruling in his favor and he could be positioned to offer the league his willingness to withdraw his offer and avoid the long legal battle in exchange for another team or, more likely, an expansion team.

At that point does the league dig in its heels and risk the long and expensive legal fight that could end up with Balsillie prevailing and the league losing its control over all franchies? I think not, I think they strike a deal and the Coyotes stay put, Balsillie gets his team, and it will be up to someone else to legally challenge the NHL's authority to control its franchisees.

I think that's the outcome he's hoping for, too. There is no way he got into this situation without knowing how open and shut it could be for the NHL unless he figured he had something to gain. I think he's trying to force them into playing ball.

I think at this point he's tired of trying to play by the rules (I know he never really did anyway) and is going for the brass ring, and he's not afraid of doing whatever it takes. I think it might work.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

So, will you say Phoenix is at least hockey knowledgeable?

I'm sure some people in Phoenix are.

As a whole? Not at all.

Then again, most cities around the US are far from hockey knowledgable. Since the sport is a 4th rate, niche sport.

And that's being polite to the sport of hockey.

 

[BigMac1212]

You are missing the point - having a team/not having a team does not make one a "hockey town" - it's about the culture and what interests people in comparison to the other sports that its population follows

Phoenix Apaches (Phoenix, AZ) - 1958-1959 - California Hockey League (1954-1963)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1967-1974 - Pacific Coast Hockey League (1944-1952) - Western Hockey League (1952-1974)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1974-1977 - World Hockey Association (1972-1979)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1977-1979 - Pacific Hockey League (1977-1979)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1977-1978 - Central Professional Hockey League (1963-1968) - Central Hockey League (1968-1984)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1989-1997 - International Hockey League (1945-2001)
Phoenix Cobras (Phoenix, AZ) - 1993-1995 - Roller Hockey International (1992-1999)
Phoenix Coyotes (Phoenix, AZ) - 1996-2009 - National Hockey League (1917-2009)
Phoenix Mustangs (Phoenix, AZ) - 1997-2001 - West Coast Hockey League (1995-2003)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 2005-2009 - East Coast Hockey League (1988-2009)

So, this doesn't justify Phoenix as a hockey town?

This is just asinine.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Yet you say that Quebec City, without a minor league team, is a hockey town, while Phoenix, with an NHL club, isn't.

If this isn't the definition of hypocrasy, I don't know what is.

How could you possibly believe that?

Your mind is extremely, extremely clouded with PHOENIX.

Quebec City is not a pro hockey town. They are not going to be getting a team and they couldn't support one.

The city also has 1.1 million less people (Phoenix, according to Wiki, has 1.5M people while Quebec City has only around 400K).

Quebec City is tiny compared to Phoenix.

Again. It's a huge hockey area, but they simply cannot support a pro level team.

 

[jessebelanger]

I think Balsillie's bottom line is a team in southern Ontario, period. He could give a crap whether it's the Coyotes, another team or an expansion team.

He saw the uniqueness of this situation (the bankruptcy) as his opportunity to mount a legal challenge to the league's contention that it, and only it, decides who owns a team and where the team plays. He knew this would tick the league off and that it would start a huge legal fight, but he must believe that he will prevail at some level legally in the process, otherwise he's gained nothing.

One legal ruling in his favor and he could be positioned to offer the league his willingness to withdraw his offer and avoid the long legal battle in exchange for another team or, more likely, an expansion team.

At that point does the league dig in its heels and risk the long and expensive legal fight that could end up with Balsillie prevailing and the league losing its control over all franchies? I think not, I think they strike a deal and the Coyotes stay put, Balsillie gets his team, and it will be up to someone else to legally challenge the NHL's authority to control its franchisees.

I agree 100%. I think there is more to this then just JB (for the life of me, I can't consistently spell Balsillie correctly) trying to move the Coyotes.

Even if the NHL is to "win" this battle, I think it will come at a considerable price...better to just allow Balsillie an expansion franchise in Southern Ontario, and keep the Yotes in Phoenix.

 

[RTN]

Let me post this again:

Phoenix Apaches (Phoenix, AZ) - 1958-1959 - California Hockey League (1954-1963)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1967-1974 - Pacific Coast Hockey League (1944-1952) - Western Hockey League (1952-1974)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1974-1977 - World Hockey Association (1972-1979)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1977-1979 - Pacific Hockey League (1977-1979)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1977-1978 - Central Professional Hockey League (1963-1968) - Central Hockey League (1968-1984)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 1989-1997 - International Hockey League (1945-2001)
Phoenix Cobras (Phoenix, AZ) - 1993-1995 - Roller Hockey International (1992-1999)
Phoenix Coyotes (Phoenix, AZ) - 1996-2009 - National Hockey League (1917-2009)
Phoenix Mustangs (Phoenix, AZ) - 1997-2001 - West Coast Hockey League (1995-2003)
Phoenix Roadrunners (Phoenix, AZ) - 2005-2009 - East Coast Hockey League (1988-2009)

Not a hockey town? Only the ignorant would say such a thing.

Kind of reminds me of...

Winnipeg Victorias (1889-1912+)
1896 Stanley Cup
1901 Stanley Cup
1902 Stanley Cup

Winnipeg Falcons (1911-1920+)
1920 Olympic Gold Medal

Winnipeg Jets
WHA (1972-1979)
NHL (1979-1996)

Manitoba Moose
IHL/AHL (1996-current)

 

[Brodie]

Quebec City has a QMJHL team, and I'd say that is probably a bigger deal than an AHL team or any other minor pro league.