Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes

[Jake16]

Jake, you beat me to the punch over on this Board. Here is a post that i made on Mirtle's blog about three hours ago:



Great minds think alike.

It took awhile but we finally found something we can agree on.

 

[iceless]

Bettman will find a way to keep the team in Phoenix. He seems to love failing American franchises.

 

[jessebelanger]

I'll agree with that. And I'm a Canes fan living in North Carolina, so no one can blame me of being a northerner or Canadian. Bettman's grand experiment in some places of southern expansion has reaped grand dividends, Raleigh and Dallas for example. Some other places, it's languid at best with no improvement from the previous location, and further places have been dramatically poor. In the interest of future growth and expanding the NHL, get rid of the dramatically poor, not only in the South or Southwest but wherever the dramatically poor are located on the continent.

I was asking another person that used to be a broadcaster in pro sports (not hockey) that now lives in the Phoenix area about the Coyotes, him previously being a broadcaster he has more insight into how pro sports work behind the scenes than most of us on here. This is from a month ago before all the recent news came out, so FWIW:

Your post is somewhat contradictory - you quote someone who claims that growth of the sport is not dependent on a winning on-ice product, but at the same time you mention the financial success of "non traditional market" clubs like Carolina and Dallas, both of which have won the Stanley Cup in the last 10 years and have been, for the most part, perennial contenders.

To believe that, for some reason, the people of Phoenix are completely different then the people of Dallas or Raleigh is interesting logic. Obviously, there are social and cultural differences, but it is pretty basic sport economics that a winning product tends to draw fans, regardless of whether they are from Alberta or Arizona.

There are exceptions, of course, but with a market the size of Phoenix, and in particular the significance of Sports and Leisure in Phoenix and Arizona as a whole, there is no reason to believe that Phoenix could not be a financially successful franchise, given time to develop and be successful on-ice - despite what significantly uninformed posters on this message board will tell you.

 

[SoCalPredFan]

Jake/GSCarpenter:

Why has the NHL not monetized the S.Ontario "asset" yet? Is it b/c the Leafs are somehow blocking it?

Is that location a shoe-in when the league goes to 32? (along with one new US-market like Houston, Portland, KC, Vegas?

How do you continue to hold back the wolves (Moyes, JB, other owners who may want to move to move their teams to S.Ontario)?

-t

 

[bbud]

Maybe I need to clear up why I'm so emotionally involved in this. First, I've been a Coyotes fan since the first day they were announced. They have had a huge impact on my life including playing hockey for the first time, meeting life long friends, and even my first job. However, I'm also a tax payer in the City of Glendale. I paid for that stadium. Now that Moyes has filed for bankruptcy, he has a "get out of jail free card" from the penalty he would receive if he ended the contract prematurely. That means that our new rink will sit empty and it will be on my dime. That's unfair.

Everyone here can think of me how they want, but you don't understand the situation I'm in. Some of you do with former teams being moved, but it seems like most of you don't. Put yourself in my shoes for a minute and ask yourself, "What if it was my team?" No matter how awful the team is, nobody wants to see their franchise moved, let alone, foot the bill for an empty stadium. Some of your arguments are valid, some...not so much. To be quite honest, I don't care. You can argue with me until you're blue in the face and I'll keep saying the same thing; "I don't want my team to be moved." That's the bottom line. Most of you don't care if we lose our team and you should be ashamed. As hockey fans, we share a united bond of sorts through our sport. Canadian or American: it shouldn't matter the nationality because we all love hockey.

I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and allow people to argue for the relocation of my team. I'll fight it to the very end. If you keep posting arguments for relocation, I'll keep rebutting them. You can count on that.

So, when you do post something, before you hit the "submit" button, think for a second. This is a team, a culture, that will be moved from the Southwest. There are people here who care even if you don't.

I stated in an earleir repost fans such as you are what will grow the game but they need enough to support the huge costs which seems difficult in Pheonix and i do admire your conviction and desire to keep your team if i were you blame Buttman he knew for some time how bad this was and hid it from fans , in fact he made public statements that led most people to think hockey in Pheonix was doing well , I also feel sorry about seeing passionate fans maybe losing a team but if that happens do not stop supporting local hockey from minor for kids to junior to minor pro because in time having success with all those will make an NHL team viable in those regions

 

[iceless]

Dude ... it's EASY to speed up the "slow, organic growth" of hockey in an non-traditional market WHEN YOU WIN A CUP. Dallas, Tampa, and Carolina have accomplished that. It speeds up the process for that community to embrace the sport.

Places like Phoenix, Nashville, and Atlanta haven't had anywhere near that kind of success. These markets take time. And by time I mean generations, decades. The seeds are planted and growing. You have to give them time!

Why give them time when you can make money NOW by moving a franchise to Canada or the Northern States?

 

[Jake16]

I don't think you have an argument here.

K-W and Hamilton are both outside the GTA. I would put the value of a Hamilton franchise at about $250-280 million (it's not like we're talking about another Toronto or Montreal team). Hamilton simply isn't worth it in the long term to pay 300+ million.

If he moves the team he'll most likely have to pay territorial fees to Toronto and Buffalo, which could possibly hit 50-80 million.

212.5 + 17 + 50ish = 280+ million

I would hate to be an owner looking at all the money Moyes lost and start thinking that could be me next. It's hard to think that a judge would turn down 212.5 for 120. Money makes the world go round.

I think the Leafs for one, would beg to differ with you. I guarantee you that MLSE thinks another team in their backyard is worth far more than 212.5. Plus, having lived in Toronto, I understand that an original 6 team downtown may have a higher value, but you can't credibly say that putting the team wherever Balsillie wants to put it is "not like we're talking about another Toronto or Montreal team." Balsillie said he was looking to put a team in that 7-8 million person metro area. Doesn't the fact Tampa sold for like 206 tell you the Ontario team is woirth alot more. The Habs are about to be sold for over 500.

I guess the way to tell for sure is to open the process to bidders for an expansion team.

 

[GSC2k2*]

It took awhile but we finally found something we can agree on.

Even if it is something that, while seemingly obvious to lawyers, seems to be escaping the typical hockey fan.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=421711&cmpid=rss-News in English

Wednesday: Bettman reiterates support of Phoenix franchise

 

[iceless]

I think the Leafs for one, would beg to differ with you. I guarantee you that MLSE thinks another team in their backyard is worth far more than 212.5. Plus, having lived in Toronto, I understand that an original 6 team downtown may have a higher value, but you can't credibly say that putting the team wherever Balsillie wants to put it is "not like we're talking about another Toronto or Montreal team." Balsillie said he was looking to put a team in that 7-8 million person metro area. Doesn't the fact Tampa sold for like 206 tell you the Ontario team is woirth alot more. The Habs are about to be sold for over 500.

I guess the way to tell for sure is to open the process to bidders for an expansion team.

Yes, because expansion is really viable in this economic environment.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Jake/GSCarpenter:

Why has the NHL not monetized the S.Ontario "asset" yet? Is it b/c the Leafs are somehow blocking it?

Is that location a shoe-in when the league goes to 32? (along with one new US-market like Houston, Portland, KC, Vegas?

How do you continue to hold back the wolves (Moyes, JB, other owners who may want to move to move their teams to S.Ontario)?

-t

The answer to that is pretty straightforward.

They have been using it as leverage to help other teams get whatever they may need from their existing locations - a new arena for PITT, a way better lease for NASH, what have you.

I don't know if it is a shoe-in.

As to how to keep the wolves at bay, self-interest is a powerful motivator. With the slot empty, every team can leverage it if needed in their current locations. Beyond that, and the $10 million-per-team pot of gold, it would be a simple POV of "hey, why should YOU get the spot, instead of me?"

 

[rj]

Dude ... it's EASY to speed up the "slow, organic growth" of hockey in an non-traditional market WHEN YOU WIN A CUP. Dallas, Tampa, and Carolina have accomplished that. It speeds up the process for that community to embrace the sport.

Places like Phoenix, Nashville, and Atlanta haven't had anywhere near that kind of success. These markets take time. And by time I mean generations, decades. The seeds are planted and growing. You have to give them time!

I disagree. 15 years is plenty time. A person that was in kindergarten when the Coyotes came to Phoenix is now in college.

I'll give you how many ever years you want. 20, 30, 40, 100. Look at the demographics of Phoenix. Will it ever pass any one of the following in terms of support. A simple yes or no.:

-Diamondbacks
-Cardinals
-Suns
-Arizona Wildcats
-Arizona State Sun Devils

Heck, while we're at it considering the large Hispanic population of the Phoenix metro area, let's say Phoenix got an MLS team tomorrow. What would have more fans, the Coyotes or that MLS team? I'm not talking people in the arena/stadium, I'm talking fans that go to games and also follow the team.

Taking into account the area's demographics (35-40% white once Hispanics are removed?) and how it works against your potential hockey fanbase, the transplant nature of the area in general, it's ranking against the three other sports teams in Phoenix and how it will most likely never pass any of them or the two college teams, and the area's economy currently which was built largely on northeastern transplants, do the Coyotes really make sense? I don't think it serves the NHL well to be in a market the size and demographics of Phoenix and be such a clear #4 in pro sports because all they'll ever get in fans and money is bread crumbs. People on here whine and complain about Versus because it's a minor-league TV station. You know why the NHL is on a minor-league TV station? Because over the past 15 years the league had too many franchises in the league where in that city hockey was a minor-league sport. Look, I'm not gloating or anything over this, I'm just calling for some rationalism. If people on this board are going to say the NHL is a big deal and is not some minor league pro sport like lacrosse or soccer, than teams like the Coyotes are an affront toward that view.

I listened to the archived podcast of a Phoenix sports show yesterday called "Bickley and MJ". Bickley apparently is the head sports writer for the Arizona Republic, Phoenix's newspaper of record. In response to a caller that was acting as if the team was in good shape and the Glendale arena was fine, he bluntly stated this to the caller: "the Coyotes in Glendale have failed". He lives there and gets paid to cover sports there, I don't live there and neither do you, so don't you think he'd know better than either of us regarding whether hockey works in Phoenix?

And also, you act like Tampa has a huge fanbase just because they won a Stanley Cup. From watching the games at the Tampa arena when the Canes play them and having friends in Tampa, they don't. And it's a widely known fact that they give out lots of freebies. Granted, some of that is because the management of the team the past few years has been completely clueless and making some boneheaded moves.

 

[SoCalPredFan]

The answer to that is pretty straightforward.

They have been using it as leverage to help other teams get whatever they may need from their existing locations - a new arena for PITT, a way better lease for NASH, what have you.

I don't know if it is a shoe-in.

As to how to keep the wolves at bay, self-interest is a powerful motivator. With the slot empty, every team can leverage it if needed in their current locations. Beyond that, and the $10 million-per-team pot of gold, it would be a simple POV of "hey, why should YOU get the spot, instead of me?"

fascinating politics.

As a die hard Predators fan, my self-interests were obviously satisfied. Our new ownership group is great and the city of Nashville continues to slowly grow the sport. One deep playoff run is all it will take to get the fan base out in droves.

 

[GSC2k2*]

I think the Leafs for one, would beg to differ with you. I guarantee you that MLSE thinks another team in their backyard is worth far more than 212.5. Plus, having lived in Toronto, I understand that an original 6 team downtown may have a higher value, but you can't credibly say that putting the team wherever Balsillie wants to put it is "not like we're talking about another Toronto or Montreal team." Balsillie said he was looking to put a team in that 7-8 million person metro area. Doesn't the fact Tampa sold for like 206 tell you the Ontario team is woirth alot more. The Habs are about to be sold for over 500.

I guess the way to tell for sure is to open the process to bidders for an expansion team.

Indeed, I find it curious that, with one breath, people will tell you that a southern ONT team is a slam dunk, huge success, top earner, blah, blah, while in the next breath peopel will suggest that it is not worth THAT much, ticket prices will be affordable, blah, blah.

Interesting, that.

 

[David_99]

Plus, isn't a second team in the greater Toronto area worth a hell of a lot more than $212.5M??? I'm fairly certain if the league put out a press release saying they would accept bids on a expansion team to be in S. Ontario, they would seek and get a lot more than $212.5. (Tampa sold last year for close to that - A team in Toronto isn't worth more than a team in Tampa??? Come on). So essentially by this ploy, Balsillie and Moyes really undercut the league (and the other owners) of that prospective revenue.

Isn't the league better off saying it will promptly put an expansion team in S. Ontario (as soon as a suitable arena can be built), let Balsillie bid on it (with a bunch of other likely bidders) and reap maybe $300M plus expansion fee for the league and the other owners. Balsillie's and Moyes' way, the league and 29 other owners get $0.

When does the league plan to expand to "reap maybe $300M"? The 2034-35 season? I'm sure by then there'll be another city in which the NHL can expand to for a heafty price. Until then, we have to focus on the NOW in which we have 30 franchises with 29 owners.

 

[Artyukhin*]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=421711&cmpid=rss-News in English

Wednesday: Bettman reiterates support of Phoenix franchise

Gary Gary Gary

wondering how may teams go bankrupt in a city ,then remain there to "flourish" successfully?


Anyone have any stats?



phx losing 30 million a year that's alot of hay to try to take off the table to get back to break even.

 

[GSC2k2*]

fascinating politics.

As a die hard Predators fan, my self-interests were obviously satisfied. Our new ownership group is great and the city of Nashville continues to slowly grow the sport. One deep playoff run is all it will take to get the fan base out in droves.

"Politics" is not really the correct concept, SoCal. It is plain, old fashioned business leverage.

 

[yotesreign]

I disagree. 15 years is plenty time. A person that was in kindergarten when the Coyotes came to Phoenix is now in college.

I'll give you how many ever years you want. 20, 30, 40, 100. Look at the demographics of Phoenix. Will it ever pass any one of the following in terms of support. A simple yes or no.:

-Diamondbacks
-Cardinals
-Suns
-Arizona Wildcats
-Arizona State Sun Devils

Heck, while we're at it considering the large Hispanic population of the Phoenix metro area, let's say Phoenix got an MLS team tomorrow. What would have more fans, the Coyotes or that MLS team? I'm not talking people in the arena/stadium, I'm talking fans that go to games and also follow the team.

Taking into account the area's demographics (35-40% white once Hispanics are removed?) and how it works against your potential hockey fanbase, the transplant nature of the area in general, it's ranking against the three other sports teams in Phoenix and how it will most likely never pass any of them or the two college teams, and the area's economy currently which was built largely on northeastern transplants, do the Coyotes really make sense? I don't think it serves the NHL well to be in a market the size and demographics of Phoenix and be such a clear #4 in pro sports because all they'll ever get in fans and money is bread crumbs. People on here whine and complain about Versus because it's a minor-league TV station. You know why the NHL is on a minor-league TV station? Because over the past 15 years the league had too many franchises in the league where in that city hockey was a minor-league sport. Look, I'm not gloating or anything over this, I'm just calling for some rationalism. If people on this board are going to say the NHL is a big deal and is not some minor league pro sport like lacrosse or soccer, than teams like the Coyotes are an affront toward that view.

I listened to the archived podcast of a Phoenix sports show yesterday called "Bickley and MJ". Bickley apparently is the head sports writer for the Arizona Republic, Phoenix's newspaper of record. In response to a caller that was acting as if the team was in good shape and the Glendale arena was fine, he bluntly stated this to the caller: "the Coyotes in Glendale have failed". He lives there and gets paid to cover sports there, I don't live there and neither do you, so don't you think he'd know better than either of us regarding whether hockey works in Phoenix?

And also, you act like Tampa has a huge fanbase just because they won a Stanley Cup. From watching the games at the Tampa arena when the Canes play them and having friends in Tampa, they don't. And it's a widely known fact that they give out lots of freebies. Granted, some of that is because the management of the team the past few years has been completely clueless and making some boneheaded moves.

Bickley is funny to listen to and read, and has interesting things to say about NFL football, which he should stick to, he knows nothing about NASCAR except they like to make left turns and he knows next to nothing about hockey. Anyone who takes what Bickley says about the NHL and Coyotes as expert opinion could probably get sucked into believing SpongeBob Squarepants is a real life oceanographer.

 

[SoCalPredFan]

I disagree. 15 years is plenty time. A person that was in kindergarten when the Coyotes came to Phoenix is now in college.

I'll give you how many ever years you want. 20, 30, 40, 100. Look at the demographics of Phoenix. Will it ever pass any one of the following in terms of support. A simple yes or no.:

-Diamondbacks
-Cardinals
-Suns
-Arizona Wildcats
-Arizona State Sun Devils

Heck, while we're at it considering the large Hispanic population of the Phoenix metro area, let's say Phoenix got an MLS team tomorrow. What would have more fans, the Coyotes or that MLS team? I'm not talking people in the arena/stadium, I'm talking fans that go to games and also follow the team.

Taking into account the area's demographics (35-40% white once Hispanics are removed?) and how it works against your potential hockey fanbase, the transplant nature of the area in general, it's ranking against the three other sports teams in Phoenix and how it will most likely never pass any of them or the two college teams, and the area's economy currently which was built largely on northeastern transplants, do the Coyotes really make sense? I don't think it serves the NHL well to be in a market the size and demographics of Phoenix and be such a clear #4 in pro sports because all they'll ever get in fans and money is bread crumbs. People on here whine and complain about Versus because it's a minor-league TV station. You know why the NHL is on a minor-league TV station? Because over the past 15 years the league had too many franchises in the league where in that city hockey was a minor-league sport. Look, I'm not gloating or anything over this, I'm just calling for some rationalism. If we're going to say the NHL is a big deal, than teams like the Coyotes are an embarassment toward that. I listened to the archived podcast of a Phoenix sports show yesterday called "Bickley and MJ". Bickley apparently is the head sports writer for the Arizona Republic, Phoenix's newspaper of record. In response to a caller that was acting as if the team was in good shape and the Glendale arena was fine, he bluntly stated this to the caller: "the Coyotes in Glendale have failed". He lives there and gets paid to cover sports there, I don't live there and neither do you, so don't you think he'd know better than either of us regarding whether hockey works in Phoenix?

And also, you act like Tampa has a huge fanbase just because they won a Stanley Cup. From watching the games at the Tampa arena when the Canes play them and having friends in Tampa, they don't. And it's a widely known fact that they give out lots of freebies. Granted, some of that is because the management of the team the past few years has been completely clueless and making some boneheaded moves.

I lived in Los Angeles for 7 years.

- Lakers
- Dodgers
- LA Angels
- Clippers
- USC
- UCLA
- Galaxy & Chivas USA

tons of teams ... over 50% hispanic....

With the Kings or Ducks ever be top dog in the Metro area? No.
In a market of 10m+ people, does it matter? No.

Phoenix is a huge market.
An NHL team can be successful there over the long run.

Non-traditional markets are needed for the NHL to grow. The only other option is to completely accept it as a "regional sport" and relegate it to curling, ping-pong, lacrosse, beach volleyball and other "regional-only" sports.

 

[Jake16]

Yes, because expansion is really viable in this economic environment.

I'm confused. How is it any less viable for the league to sell Balsilie an expansion franchise than what he currently proposes? In one situation the league gets the money, in the other Moyes does. The price may be higher, but isn't that the league's right. Other than that Balisillie (or whoever else gets the team) has the same expenditures. So I don't agree.

The price certainly may be higher in a year or two when the economy is stronger, but who ever said this was about getting Balsillie a prime asset (an Ontario franchise) at a bargain price (the cost of a bruised Phoenix franchise).

 

[Artyukhin*]

If the Coyotes come to Hamilton tomorrow, the Bulldogs will be gone the day after. I will miss them, my Bulldogs will stay remain my most prized possession. I'm having a baby in June and I was going to go to Hamilton and buy some Bulldog (and some Ticat) stuff for her, but I guess I should hold off until I see which way this goes....

isnt this the last year the Dogs have signed to be the Canadiens farm team?

could it work out the new Hamiltion/Ont team could keep the Dogs in Hamiltion for there own farm club?

 

[Rob]

I used to think that too but I don't put blame on the fans or even Canadiens in general. On the Coyotes boards we have been getting a lot of support from Canadiens who wish to see the team be successful in Arizona.

I actually blame the Canadian media for all of this. They keep putting out garbage report after garbage report in order to appease the fans that are bitter about teams moving from Canada. They feed their fan base's hatred and fan the flames until it boils over. That's wrong and completely unethical.

Well as it turns out the Canadian media was right.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Gary Gary Gary

wondering how may teams go bankrupt in a city ,then remain there to "flourish" successfully?


Anyone have any stats?



phx losing 30 million a year that's alot of hay to try to take off the table to get back to break even.

Buffalo and Ottawa, for starters.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

isnt this the last year the Dogs have signed to be the Canadiens farm team?

could it work out the new Hamiltion/Ont team could keep the Dogs in Hamiltion for there own farm club?

PHX is affiliated w/ SA.... AND NOT afaik

 

[Vic Rattlehead*]

My point is, to assume that every single NHL game will sell out, just because it is in Canada is absurd.

The Canadian NHL teams are quite blessed with talent right now, the only teams that were not in the playoff hunt were Ottawa and Toronto. Ottawa may be on the decline, and both are coming off of consistent playoff appearances throughout the decade.

If Ottawa doesn't improve this offseason, if they get off to a slow start, don't expect them to be near 100% attendance.

Toronto hasn't iced a good team since the lockout and they continue to sell-out.

Ottawa was practically dog-**** this season and they still averaged well over 100% for home attendance. Stop arguing about a non-issue.