Winnepeg NEARLY kept at team with a population of 600,000... Where they are moving has a rough metro area of up to 8,000,000 depending on wether we go by American or Canadian guidelines for a metro area.
All your talk about success on the ice is completely and utterly irrelevent, noone here cares weather they win. This is the Business of Hockey forums, success = profitability not making the playoffs.
You have no concept of reality if you do not think another team in Ontario could be successful.
Take into consideration the money people spend to go see the Leafs, take into consideration what people spend in Pheonix.
You know it is nearly cheaper for me to fly to Pheonix get a hotel room, and watch the Oilers play in Pheonix than it is to get tickets in my own city? This is with a Metro area of 1,000,000. Consider a Metor Area of 8,000,000 divded by two teams + all the tourists in the greater Toronto Area compared to Edmonton.
I cannot have a logical conversation with you anymore so I am done with you.
I don't even know where to begin. Of course we cannot have a logical discussion because you seem to have a distorted reality of "logic" really is.
Yes, this is the Business of Hockey thread. Yes, profit does equal success. But you're missing a step...the "success" part. What makes a profitable team "successful?" By putting a good (i.e. "successful") team on the ice. The Coyotes are, as of right now, not profitable because they are not a successful product. If the Coyotes put a successful team on the ice, they will become profitable. I'm not sure how to phrase that any easier without trying to sound like a cave man.
However, this model of "success" also has outliers consisting of tradition (i.e. fan base). People are Leafs fans because they're parents were Leafs fans, and so on and so forth. People in Canada have had a foundation already cemented for them by previous generations whereas our foundation is just being laid. Rome wasn't built in a day you know....
That's ridiculous. There is absolutely no connection at all between the first edition of the Senators and the recent reincarnation in terms of fan support. I have never met anyone who truly recognizes those Cups wins from the 20's or any of the players in modern records or statistics. You could have named the team "The Ottawa Boners" and people would have showed up, so your point is moot.. Sure, Ottawa has had a lot of exposure to hockey and the NHL over the years, before we got a brand new expansion team, but try coming to a game when the Habs or Leafs are in town. That's where many loyalties were previously and have subsequently moved over. We weren't waiting in droves for an NHL team to return. It has been a tough battle for the organization to lure people over I should add. Your assertion is a complete joke and completely ignorant.
I'll agree that my argument about the Sens was a little off base. Still, why did they bring them back to that particular city with that name? That's my real question. If it wasn't for brand loyalty, then what was it?
First off the problems with Winnipeg and Quebec had more to do with a weak Canadian dollar than problems with fan support, but that is neither here nor there. We're talking about Southern Ontario here with a large population base here of hockey mad people. As we can demostrate with the Toronto Maple Leafs, winning isn't neccesary for making money....something that can clearly not happen in Phoenix...
You're absolutely correct. Unlike Toronto fans, Arizona fans do not reward failure. We want winners. We demand winners. We are not lemmings and will not follow a franchise "just because." That's a huge difference. I would love to play in Toronto. All I would have to do is show up and the people would still be there. Playing here is difficult. We want our teams to win, and win often, or else we don't care about you. Is that the thought process of the normal Coyotes fan? Absolutely not. We have, more than anyone else in the league, endured far greater and more difficult challenges than any Leafs or Habs fan. It's easy to be a Leafs fan, it's hard to be a Coyotes fan.
The difference is that nobody support the Jets while they were in Winnipeg either.
And I'm allowed to say that because I lived there for a year and went to many games. You could easily walk up on game day and get tickets anywhere.
On some nights, you could hear the players yapping on the ice from the upper deck. No joke.
In Hamilton, they'll be able to charge $50 for a nosebleed seat. In Phoenix that will get you four tickets, four hotdogs and a timeshare in Glendale.
Simply put, in Hamilton, Toronto, Waterloo, Kitchener, anywhere in Southwestern Ontario, you can sell out an 18,000 seat arena for any price you want every single night.
That means more money to keep the good players you have, or grab good free agents. This means a better chance at long term success.
I give the Coyote organzation props for going after Jokinen, signing Bryzgalov(sp?) long term and other players.
The problem is, most people in Glendale and Phoenix didn't care about the team. It's why it was the 3rd lowest in the league for attendance and that's with cutthroat prices.
There's better hockey markets out there. It's time to leave Arizona and find them.
See my response above.
But aren't there too many teams in that area anyways? Detroit, Toronto, Buffalo, and now maybe a 4th team? Why? How does that create a profit? Nobody from Detroit will go watch a team in Hamilton. People in Buffalo will, but now Buffalo loses fans. People from Toronto might as well, but why when you have the Leafs? Again, it's a lateral move.
All of the above would not happen in Hamilton or in Southwestern Ontario.
This team has been facing relocation for at least 2 seasons and how did the fans respond? By not showing up.
When Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton faced relocation and extinction the fans responded by coming to the rink. Nuff said.
EDIT: I should add that expansion team Columbus sold out nearly every home game for 4 seasons before the fans grew restless with a losing organization. They didn't inherit an NHL team with bonafide stars that made the playoffs 5 of their first 6 seasons.
Phoenix was handed a midiocre team and that's the exact kind of fan support it's received.
I find it funny that there's only 3 guys in this entire thread that keep coming back defending what a fantastic hockey market Phoenix is. And anytime someone disputes this with evidence the excuse's come flocking out:
"The Canadian media is the reason we're in trouble!"
"We haven't won enough!"
"The arena is too far away!"
Face it. You filed Chapter 11. You were bleeding $30M a year. You had the 3rd lowest attendance in the league.
Even some of your own reporters don't care that the teams leaving.
It's over. Phoenix is a bad hockey market and all the numbers point to that.
I think you have some valid points. We were handed a mediocre team. That's not our fault. We came out to games when they first arrived here, but when they started to suck, we lost interest. Not me though. I try to watch as many games as I can, but it doesn't matter now.
To address the bolded section...we didn't file for chapter 11. Moyes did. He did it behind our backs (City of Glendale) and the NHL's backs. He's a scum bag. We were bleeding so much money a year due to a bunch of different reasons, not
just attendance or lack of interest. If you want proof, look at the amount of investors ready to file lawsuits if Glendale restructures their contract. The Islanders had the lowest attendance...should we move them too? Every year we'll move the teams with the lowest attendance to Canada, how does that sound? Yes, let's punish every bad team every year because they couldn't turn a profit. That should solve all of our problems. Every year there is a team or teams that do not generate a profit in every sport and every league and yet nobody wants to move them.
