Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes

[BogsDiamond]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2009/05/06/20090506spt-bickleycoyotes.html

When the team was good and when the team was close, we supported hockey just fine. But we're not spending hours in a car on a weekday night cheering a faceless team that hasn't won a playoff series in 22 years.

All of the above would not happen in Hamilton or in Southwestern Ontario.

This team has been facing relocation for at least 2 seasons and how did the fans respond? By not showing up.

When Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton faced relocation and extinction the fans responded by coming to the rink. Nuff said.

EDIT: I should add that expansion team Columbus sold out nearly every home game for 4 seasons before the fans grew restless with a losing organization. They didn't inherit an NHL team with bonafide stars that made the playoffs 5 of their first 6 seasons.
Phoenix was handed a midiocre team and that's the exact kind of fan support it's received.

I find it funny that there's only 3 guys in this entire thread that keep coming back defending what a fantastic hockey market Phoenix is. And anytime someone disputes this with evidence the excuse's come flocking out:
"The Canadian media is the reason we're in trouble!"
"We haven't won enough!"
"The arena is too far away!"

Face it. You filed Chapter 11. You were bleeding $30M a year. You had the 3rd lowest attendance in the league.
Even some of your own reporters don't care that the teams leaving.

It's over. Phoenix is a bad hockey market and all the numbers point to that.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

If the Coyotes come to Hamilton tomorrow, the Bulldogs will be gone the day after. I will miss them, my Bulldogs will stay remain my most prized possession. I'm having a baby in June and I was going to go to Hamilton and buy some Bulldog (and some Ticat) stuff for her, but I guess I should hold off until I see which way this goes....

AFAIK, this won't be occurring tomorrow, just starting tomorrow, I'd still go get the Bulldogs merchandise, no matter how the Coyotes bankruptcy goes, Evil, because it's all but announced that the Coyotes won't be relocating yet. Congrats in advance

 

[Hounsy]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2009/05/06/20090506spt-bickleycoyotes.html

I guess the real problem facing Phoenix is finding someone to gamble a couple hundred million on it.

 

[btn]

Simply put, in Hamilton, Toronto, Waterloo, Kitchener, anywhere in Southwestern Ontario, you can sell out an 18,000 seat arena for any price you want every single night.

Just curious, why did Ottawa have problems selling out this year, and in the past?

Or do you think that these areas are vastly superior to Ottawa when it comes to supporting inferior on ice products over long periods of time.

The on ice product matters.

 

[Jumptheshark]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2009/05/06/20090506spt-bickleycoyotes.html

This is not our fault. When the team was good and when the team was close, we supported hockey just fine.


from the article

sorry

it is easy to support the team when it is winning

but when the team struggles that is when you find out what kind of support the team truly has.

Look at the Lightening--dead last a year ago and fans still came out.

It botheres me when people go "IF YOU WIN THEY WILL COME"--those are not fans--those are the guys who buy the latest clothes cuaser they are in style, they are the ones who buy s cd cuase it is cool, they are the ones who buy into a diet cause some famous person says it works.

Sorry--just annoys me when people say that

Locally, it's getting tense. After contributing $180 million to the arena, the city of Glendale could be stuck with an empty building and no anchor tenant. The financial ramifications could be severe, and politicians will scramble like rats off a sinking ship.

See what other cities have done--rock concerts and what not

 

[Warden of the North]

Just curious, why did Ottawa have problems selling out this year, and in the past?

Or do you think that these areas are vastly superior to Ottawa when it comes to supporting inferior on ice products over long periods of time.

The on ice product matters.

Im not sure, but wouldnt South Western Ontario have much more population to draw from then Ottawa?

 

[BogsDiamond]

Just curious, why did Ottawa have problems selling out this year, and in the past?

Or do you think that these areas are vastly superior to Ottawa when it comes to supporting inferior on ice products over long periods of time.

The on ice product matters.

What stats are you looking at?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2009

Ottawa filled their rink to 105% capacity. What problems were you referring too?

In fact, all 6 Canadian teams sold out to 100% or better in 2009.

Point. Set. Match.

EDIT: Just to slam the point about Ottawa home.

2009 - 105%
2008 - 107.1%
2007, 2006 - 106%

 

[Johnny Law]

The only problem I have with all of this is why it had to be now.

Will all the great things going on in the playoffs and we have to discuss the Coyotes and Balsillie ?

 

[The Pouzar]

Questions and Thoughts

I've been reading the thread for about 1.5 hrs and had a few question and thoughts on what could or could not happen. As well as a few other posts.
Does anyone know what the significance of PSE being formed in Delaware is? Does this state have more conducive laws for what JB is trying to do?

I think that comparing PHX to cities like CLB and SJ is a silly thing to do because of how each franchise came into existence as well as it location. PHX was a relocation and happened quite quickly compared to these other two. SJ as an expansion franchise had more time to build grass roots support for hockey. I believe that one of the first things that was done was starting a minor hockey program to start generating new fans. As well the SJ represented a market that was clamouring for professional sport.I believe that CLB followed a similar path as SJ and had a similar market.
PHX had no time to build that grass roots program and moved into market where there were already established 2 established sports teams as well as a future expansion franchise. It was a market that was going to be hard to succeed in.

 

[btn]

It botheres me when people go "IF YOU WIN THEY WILL COME"--those are not fans--those are the guys who buy the latest clothes cuaser they are in style, they are the ones who buy s cd cuase it is cool, they are the ones who buy into a diet cause some famous person says it works.

Sorry--just annoys me when people say that

It annoys me when people pretend that the on ice product does not matter.

Everyone wants to point to how successful the Canadian franchises are now. But I don't recall them always having sellout streaks, especially when some of them were bottom feeders.

When is the last time any Canadian team even struggled? Vancouver in 1999?

Put a bad team consistently in front of any market outside of perhaps Montreal, Toronto, and NYR....you will have empty seats...and financial problems if the lack of success is persistent.

 

[guyincognito]

What stats are you looking at?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2009

Ottawa filled their rink to 105% capacity. What problems were you referring too?

In fact, all 6 Canadian teams sold out to 100% or better in 2009.

Point. Set. Match.

EDIT: Just to slam the point about Ottawa home.

2009 - 105%
2008 - 107.1%
2007, 2006 - 106%

they sell standing room, (and alot of it) it's not a true 100%. cap it at the true seating capacity and it looks different. still very good, though. the team did play much better in the second half so it kept them from having an Avs-like disaster.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The only problem I have with all of this is why it had to be now.

Will all the great things going on in the playoffs and we have to discuss the Coyotes and Balsillie ?

Amen to that

 

[BogsDiamond]

they sell standing room, (and alot of it) it's not a true 100%. cap it at the true seating capacity and it looks different. still very good, though. the team did play much better in the second half so it kept them from having an Avs-like disaster.

They all smudge the totals.
But if you watched any of their games on Home Ice you could tell the place was sold out save a few sparse empty seats.

Compare that to Phoenix's telecasts and I think you could fire a cannon off in some sections and it wouldn't hit anyone.

 

[btn]

What stats are you looking at?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2009

Ottawa filled their rink to 105% capacity. What problems were you referring too?

In fact, all 6 Canadian teams sold out to 100% or better in 2009.

Point. Set. Match.

EDIT: Just to slam the point about Ottawa home.

2009 - 105%
2008 - 107.1%
2007, 2006 - 106%

http://www.team1040.ca/news/story/?id=1838

The Ottawa Senators sellout streak ended earlier this year after all six Canadian NHL franchises sold out all 41 regular season home games in 2007-’08

I specifically remembered someone talking about Ottawa not selling out down the stretch, and here is proof of that. I guess the southern teams aren't the only ones cooking their attendance figures

I think you will find that Ottawa also struggled with attendance earlier in its history.

 

[Alan Jackson]

It annoys me when people pretend that the on ice product does not matter.

Everyone wants to point to how successful the Canadian franchises are now. But I don't recall them always having sellout streaks, especially when some of them were bottom feeders.

When is the last time any Canadian team even struggled? Vancouver in 1999?

Put a bad team consistently in front of any market outside of perhaps Montreal, Toronto, and NYR....you will have empty seats...and financial problems if the lack of success is persistent.

I don't know how many times I need to post this, but when guaging fan interest in a particular market, attendance is only one factor you need to look at.

What are local TV ratings like? Are people listening to the radio broadcasts? Is there a strong media presence? Are people generally aware the team exists?

There was a time, not so long ago, when Vancouver was struggling attendance wise. However, fans were still following the team.

 

[mouser]

I've been reading the thread for about 1.5 hrs and had a few question and thoughts on what could or could not happen. As well as a few other posts.
Does anyone know what the significance of PSE being formed in Delaware is? Does this state have more conducive laws for what JB is trying to do?

Delaware probably has the most favorable laws and tax/cost structure for incorporating companies. It's quite common for companies to incorporate in Delaware regardless of where they actually do business in the US.

 

[jessebelanger]

It botheres me when people go "IF YOU WIN THEY WILL COME"--those are not fans--those are the guys who buy the latest clothes cuaser they are in style, they are the ones who buy s cd cuase it is cool, they are the ones who buy into a diet cause some famous person says it works.

Sorry--just annoys me when people say that

I'm not sure what your point is, other then promoting a silly sense of entitlement.

 

[smokes lets go]

quick question: If this deal goes through, is JB aloud to "temporarily" place the team in Copps until he can build a new arena. It would make 0 sense to keep it in PHX while a new arena were to be built

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Delaware probably has the most favorable laws and tax/cost structure for incorporating companies. It's quite common for companies to incorporate in Delaware regardless of where they actually do business in the US.

most hockey fans are behind the Coyotes and their fanbase and their mods, hang in there

 

[Evil Doctor]

AFAIK, this won't be occurring tomorrow, just starting tomorrow, I'd still go get the Bulldogs merchandise, no matter how the Coyotes bankruptcy goes, Evil, because it's all but announced that the Coyotes won't be relocating yet. Congrats in advance

Thanks

Of course I did say 'IF' since I have no idea how this will play out, I just know how I want it to play out. Of course as they say "If wishes were horses we all would be riding..." I will deffinately be buying the Ticat bibs and onesies but I will hold off on the Bulldogs untill I know which way it goes, Coyote bibs and onesies will look just as good

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Thanks

Of course I did say 'IF' since I have no idea how this will play out, I just know how I want it to play out. Of course as they say "If wishes were horses we all would be riding..." I will deffinately be buying the Ticat bibs and onesies but I will hold off on the Bulldogs untill I know which way it goes, Coyote bibs and onesies will look just as good

we'll know more beginning tomorrow, but I suspect for now, the Coyotes will be in Phoenix or technically Glendale, and the Dogs will be in Copps, hope everything works well.

the Bulldogs would have to file a relocation application if this goes the wrong way

 

[SoCalPredFan]

Wow ... a lot of posts, not enough substance.

FIRST:
Bettman and the BOG continues to fight Balsillie as an owner (be it PITT, NSH, PHX or anywhere else) because of ONE simple reason:
Balsillie does not want to play by the rules.There is a process to follow in obtaining a team and in where that obtained team is located. JB wants it his way and his way only. If he followed the process, he'd eventually get somewhere. You simply CANNOT fault Bettman and BOG for standing their ground when someone (anyone) tries to curtail the process that protects the league and its owners.

SECOND:
All this rhetoric about Canada v USA is ridiculous. There's simply a philosophical difference between "growing" the league. One viewpoint maintains take the teams to the established hockey hotbeds to maximize gate revenue and support. Other viewpoint says take teams to new markets to continue to expand overall market size. One focuses on maximizing current market and revenues within it. The other is focused on increasing size with a potential larger reward long term.

Bickering back and forth like a bunch of self-righteous idiots ad-naseum is tiring and dilutes the actual valuable content of this thread.

BOTTOM LINE:
- If Balsillie won't follow the process established by the league to become an owner, then he shouldn't be allowed to become one.
- The long-term viability of the league depends on both existing markets and new markets. Not just one or the other.

-t

 

[Evil Doctor]

The only problem I have with all of this is why it had to be now.

Will all the great things going on in the playoffs and we have to discuss the Coyotes and Balsillie ?

Well aparently the NHL was about to shove an offer down Moyes throat and he had to make a move to protect his assets.

I know what you are saying, I hadn't heard about this last night. I turned on TSN this morning to get the final score of the Canucks/Black Hawks game and found out about the desert power play...

 

[guyincognito]

They all smudge the totals.
But if you watched any of their games on Home Ice you could tell the place was sold out save a few sparse empty seats.

Compare that to Phoenix's telecasts and I think you could fire a cannon off in some sections and it wouldn't hit anyone.

I don't think they really fudge the totals, it's just if you sell a thousand or so standing room, and you can do that 20 times, it's like having an extra full house and it skews the attendance up. You get a situation where they didn't sell out every game but still ended up over capacity.

Definately wasn't nearly as bad as the poster was making it out to be, though.

It's not so much the attendance as the gate, though... you can have teams that price like Boston and the Devils and get "meh" crowds, but still easily outpace teams like Buffalo that go at, or over, capacity in the gate department. The Devils, for example, brought down alot of their prices next year. They should draw well over 16K a night next year, unless that disaster of a Game 7 leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth. But, with the dropped prices, the gate won't necessarily go up.

Problem for Phoenix is that they have *both* bad attendance and bad gate.

 

[BogsDiamond]

http://www.team1040.ca/news/story/?id=1838



I specifically remembered someone talking about Ottawa not selling out down the stretch, and here is proof of that. I guess the southern teams aren't the only ones cooking their attendance figures

I think you will find that Ottawa also struggled with attendance earlier in its history.

LMAO!!!! Your statement was:

Just curious, why did Ottawa have problems selling out this year, and in the past?

They didn't sell out every game. So what? How many games didn't they sell out? 3? 4?
They still averaged over 100% capacity!

Geez, I'd love to see your defintion of how poorly the Coyotes sold.
Check the link I provided. They're consistently at the bottom of the list since 2001.
Their best year since then was in 2004 when they were 19th and that was the season Jobbing.com Arena was built so you know there's going to be some residual attraction because of it.

And some people say that the Canadian media has a way of spinning facts. Give me a break!