Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes

[Bixby Snyder]

I find the Gretzky part of this story is very funny but to be honest I'm not sure if I even believe it. It could be some media generated thing as it does sound very un-Gretzky like to me.

Well Gretzky had no problem being made part owner in Phoenix without spending a dime and then collect 5-6 million a year to help run that franchise into the ground.

 

[BogsDiamond]

The Versus contract was for $130 million for the 2005-06 and 2006-07 seasons, and $72.5 Million for the 2007-2008 season. I can't find numbers for there 2008-09 season, but it's safe to assume its higher than the $72.5 million.

That's nothing to sneeze at.

Those are decent numbers, but I believe ESPN/ABC paid $600M for 5 years with the NHL in the late 90's.

I think the point he's making is that the idea for expanding into non-traditional hockey markets was supposed to broaden their viewership.
That coveted NFL or MLB TV deal is something NHL owners have been after for 2 decades.

On paper and theory it makes sense. However it never materialized the way they thought it would.

 

[Valic]

The Versus contract was for $130 million for the 2005-06 and 2006-07 seasons, and $72.5 Million for the 2007-2008 season. I can't find numbers for there 2008-09 season, but it's safe to assume its higher than the $72.5 million.

That's nothing to sneeze at.

Are the Coyotes leaving going to reduce what Versus is going to pay by over 35 million dollars (their loses)?

 

[SuperDave21]

FYI, I'm an American.

Let's assume this Southern Ontario team loses a bit to begin with, just like the Ottawa Senators did. Did Ottawa abandon their team? Hardly, they've embraced the Sens despite being stuck between the deep fanbases of Toronto and Montreal. Have Canadians in the Capital Region ditched the Sens because of the Leafs and Les Canadiens?

I understand what you're saying but comparing the Coyotes fan base to the Sens, Habs, and Leafs is completely unfair. How long have those teams been in the league? All of those teams have generations of fans, while we have what, maybe 3 generations? I'll tell you what, give us 100 years in the league and if we're still a horrible club with no fans, then we'll leave. Deal?

You really don't understand how incredibly popular and entrenched the game is in Canadian culture (by law, it's the national winter sport). Have you followed the world championships at all? Did you follow the world juniors this past year? Canadians do, with a passion. You provided weak examples of how the game is "growing" in Arizona. Compared to Canada and the entrenched American hockey markets (New England and the Great Lakes), you'll never meet the same level of interest and prowess. Not a chance.[/QUOTE]

Apparently I don't since the Coyotes moved from Winnipeg in the first place. If more teams in Canada bring in more revenue, then how come Winnipeg had to move? Everyone keeps clamoring about how a team in Hamilton would thrive when it didn't work in Winnipeg. Also, it's the national winter sport as it it shared with curling. And that came into being in 1994. You think I provide weak arguments, look at yourself.

Did I watch the world championships and juniors? Yes, yes I did. I wasn't able to watch all of them with my busy schedule, but when I had time, yes. I know, how weird right?

Also, the examples that I provided are not weak. Without the Coyotes, we wouldn't have Junior B teams or travel leagues. We wouldn't have the many ice rinks that we do now. Before the Coyotes, there were, what, 3-4 rinks tops spread throughout the valley? Now we have 1 or 2 in every major city. That's called a foundation. You can't build something without a foundation, especially in the decade that we have had the time to do it in.

What about the Islanders? It's not even remotely relevent to the current Phoenix situation.

How is not relevant? Bad team that loses money with horrible attendance. Which team am I talking about?

Media attention has everything to do with it, it's a reflection of basic fan interest.

That can be argued in many different ways. Just because our media doesn't cover as much hockey as TSN, doesn't make me less of a fan does it?

Wow, I didn't know the Globe and Mail was such an influential paper in the Phoenix area....

So here is your chance to enlighten me about how hockey is so important in Phoenix and that they currently are not in bankruptcy and it's all Canadian propaganda....

That wasn't my argument. It's an influential media source in Canada and a bad source at that. With their biased pieces on the Coyotes, the people who read the articles tend to agree with the bias of the author, right or wrong.

Also, I did spell out how hockey is important in Arizona but it seems like you don't want to take the time to read what I wrote. Not my problem.

The Coyotes organization, on behalf of Jerry Moyes who is not part of the franchise any longer, has filed for bankruptcy. That's it. There hasn't been a hearing to determine the outcome so therefore they are not legally "bankrupt" as of yet. They have to provide the court proof that they do not have the capacity to pay back the loans they made.

 

[Valic]

You are mistaken - but sadly it is a common mistake on these boards.

The minimum revenue sharing pool is 4.5% of league revenues.

If the Coyotes move to Canada (and their revenues increase), the revenue sharing contributions of the other Canadian teams does not go down - they may in fact increase, since total league revenues would increase. All that would change is that the other bottom 15 teams would get more $$$ and a new team could drop into the bottom half and become eligible.

Well boo... I still think its alot better for the NHL to have teams that turn a profit than continue to lose money in a market with "potential".

 

[Jumptheshark]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the judge could just throw the bankruptcy out tomorrow.

nope


only if a third party can prove that there are more assets then debts or that the money coming in is greater then taht going out.

According to the talking heads--the NHL can come into the fray and us a by-law and revoke the NHL agreement form Phoenix. However, they would not move the team but disperse the team.

What the NHL could do is come in and accept all loses for the team.

As I said ealier, looks like a back door job by bals and the owner and if the nhl can prove that thnere was an agreement between the owner and bals before this move--the judge could say that this agreement would prevent the bankrupsy procedure.

NONE OF us our lawyers and none of us are in the room with what is going on. My understanding is that this type of thing is governed by the nhl charter that all teams sign when they enter the league and all owners agree to.

This is a gamble by the dogs owner--If the nhl does their thing correctly--he might be just kicked to the curb with nothing but his jock strap and sox

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I think, given the amount of money being spent, the Bulldogs are not a big deal here.

Do you really want the AHL in the middle of this, Brodie, when in fact you already have brought 30 more cities including the Coyotes affiliate in San Antonio into this discussion regarding the Bulldogs.

what does the AHL be technically aligned with---the NHL

THIS ISN'T THE Phoenix Road Runners ceasing in AWA DUE TO the lost lease there

 

[LadyStanley]

Are the Coyotes leaving going to reduce what Versus is going to pay by over 35 million dollars (their loses)?

I doubt there will be any change to a Versus on-going contract should one team leave the country.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Are the Coyotes leaving going to reduce what Versus is going to pay by over 35 million dollars (their loses)?

I'm not arguing that the Coyotes leavng would have any impact on a national TV contract. My argument is that non-traditional hockey markets make it possible for the NHL to have a national TV contract at all. A previous poster argued that the NHL doesn't need about a dozen markets for it to have a TV deal, including San Jose and Washington, which is absurd.

 

[Brodie]

Do you really want the AHL in the middle of this, Brodie, when in fact you already have brought 30 more cities including the Coyotes affiliate in San Antonio into this discussion regarding the Bulldogs.

what does the AHL be technically aligned with---the NHL

I think the Canadiens and the Bulldogs ownership would just agree to move the team. An AHL challenging an NHL team from entering their arena would be kind of silly and counter productive. If they even tried it, the Canadiens could just break their affiliation agreement and the Bulldogs would have no choice but to fold.

 

[Valic]

I understand what you're saying but comparing the Coyotes fan base to the Sens, Habs, and Leafs is completely unfair. How long have those teams been in the league? All of those teams have generations of fans, while we have what, maybe 3 generations?



Apparently I don't since the Coyotes moved from Winnipeg in the first place. If more teams in Canada bring in more revenue, then how come Winnipeg had to move? Everyone keeps clamoring about how a team in Hamilton would thrive when it didn't work in Winnipeg. Also, it's the national winter sport as it it shared with curling. And that came into being in 1994. You think I provide weak arguments, look at yourself.

Did I watch the world championships and juniors? Yes, yes I did. I wasn't able to watch all of them with my busy schedule, but when I had time, yes. I know, how weird right?

Also, the examples that I provided are not weak. Without the Coyotes, we wouldn't have Junior B teams or travel leagues. We wouldn't have the many ice rinks that we do now. Before the Coyotes, there were, what, 3-4 rinks tops spread throughout the valley? Now we have 1 or 2 in every major city. That's called a foundation. You can't build something without a foundation, especially in the decade that we have had the time to do it in.



That wasn't my argument. It's an influential media source in Canada and a bad source at that. With their biased pieces on the Coyotes, the people who read the articles tend to agree with the bias of the author, right or wrong.

Also, I did spell out how hockey is important in Arizona but it seems like you don't want to take the time to read what I wrote. Not my problem.

Senators have been around a couple years longer than the Coyotes, they have no problems turning a profit.

The Jets moved because they were losing money, like the Coyotes are now. Hence why the Coyotes should be moved.

Your conspiracy theories surrounding Canadian media are getting old. What bias have they shown? They have gone on and on saying the team is losing money. People denied it called it crazy Canadian media. Guess what the Coyotes declared bankrupcy if you haven't heard.

The NHL even lied about it, giving money to the Coyotes to operate yet claimed no NHL teams were in turmoil. Guess what, the Coyotes obviously were.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I think the Canadiens and the Bulldogs ownership would just agree to move the team. An AHL challenging an NHL team from entering their arena would be kind of silly and counter productive. If they even tried it, the Canadiens could just break their affiliation agreement and the Bulldogs would have no choice but to fold.

HECFI has a valid lease w/ the Bulldogs, which was proven during the aborted Nashville attempt, Brodie, they will not move the franchise from Hamilton since the Oilers took the Abraham deal which realigned the Bulldogs to local ownership to where MLSE PUT THE Marlies.

 

[BogsDiamond]

Senators have been around a couple years longer than the Coyotes, they have no problems turning a profit.

The Jets moved because they were losing money, like the Coyotes are now. Hence why the Coyotes should be moved.

Your conspiracy theories surrounding Canadian media are getting old. What bias have they shown? They have gone on and on saying the team is losing money. People denied it called it crazy Canadian media. Guess what the Coyotes declared bankruptcy if you haven't heard.

The NHL even lied about it, giving money to the Coyotes to operate yet claimed no NHL teams were in turmoil. Guess what, the Coyotes obviously were.

Which is the proverbial nail on the head in regards to why Bettman and the NHL are furious with what Moyes and Ballsillie have done.

We all know that the league lies about how well it's doing but this is the one case where irrefutable proof has been provided.

Bettman can no longer say with a straight face that everything is fine in Arizona.

His grip of power and propaganda has loosened greatly because of what has transpired. And that's why you'll see GB and the BOG go after this with gusto even if it's not in the leagues best financial interest.
The NHL wants to be seen as a strong league where the franchises are valued greatly.
Suddenly, everyone is well aware that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

 

[LadyStanley]

First off folks, let's keep this discussion to the Balsillie offer, the Phoenix bankruptcy, not get into a discussion of TV contracts.



Second....
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2009/05/06/sp-kelly-coyotes.html?ref=rss

CBC article on NHLPA Kelly supporting Balsillie's offer.

(You just knew that was coming, right. )

 

[BigFatCat999]

I think the Canadiens and the Bulldogs ownership would just agree to move the team. An AHL challenging an NHL team from entering their arena would be kind of silly and counter productive. If they even tried it, the Canadiens could just break their affiliation agreement and the Bulldogs would have no choice but to fold.

Worst case for Phoenix/ best case for Hamilton.

Yotes move to Hamilton.

Bulldogs move the Quebec City

New arena is built in KW

New top tier team in Canada

Revensue sharing goes up and lower level teams get more cash.

 

[SuperDave21]

Senators have been around a couple years longer than the Coyotes, they have no problems turning a profit.

The Jets moved because they were losing money, like the Coyotes are now. Hence why the Coyotes should be moved.

Your conspiracy theories surrounding Canadian media are getting old. What bias have they shown? They have gone on and on saying the team is losing money. People denied it called it crazy Canadian media. Guess what the Coyotes declared bankrupcy if you haven't heard.

The NHL even lied about it, giving money to the Coyotes to operate yet claimed no NHL teams were in turmoil. Guess what, the Coyotes obviously were.

The Senators were a team in the early 1900's and built a fan base foundation from there. They had such a huge fan base that they were given the franchise back in the early 90's if memory serves me right. Again, you can't compare the fan bases of the Coyotes to the Senators or any other Canadian team.

My statement about the Jets is twofold: One, they were an NHL franchise that struggled in Canada. Hence, the argument that "any team awarded to Canada will thrive" is debunked. And two, maybe we should be looking at the management of the franchise (Jets and Yotes) for answers as to why they struggled/are struggling.

Are you telling me the Canadian media isn't even slightly biased about moving the team back to Canada? Really?

The NHL has given money to many teams in the past including the Ottawa Senators. When the Senators were in trouble, did anyone even mention a relocation of the team? They didn't, you say? Well I wonder why that is...

 

[jessebelanger]

Senators have been around a couple years longer than the Coyotes, they have no problems turning a profit.

The Jets moved because they were losing money, like the Coyotes are now. Hence why the Coyotes should be moved.

Your conspiracy theories surrounding Canadian media are getting old. What bias have they shown? They have gone on and on saying the team is losing money. People denied it called it crazy Canadian media. Guess what the Coyotes declared bankrupcy if you haven't heard.

The NHL even lied about it, giving money to the Coyotes to operate yet claimed no NHL teams were in turmoil. Guess what, the Coyotes obviously were.

Bettman clearly stated at the all-star game that money was being given to the Coyotes.

Comparing Phoenix to Winnipeg is just silly, I don't know why people continue to do it. The Coyotes should be moved because the Jets were moved is very, very flawed logic, and ignores the real world economics that the NHL operates in.

 

[SuperDave21]

Worst case for Phoenix/ best case for Hamilton.

Yotes move to Hamilton.

Bulldogs move the Quebec City

New arena is built in KW

New top tier team in Canada

Revensue sharing goes up and lower level teams get more cash.

I'm confused. First the Coyotes are a bad team and that's the reason they are losing money. Suddenly, they get to Canada, and presto, they're a top tier team? Did I miss a day of school or something? Since when does playing in Canada make you a better team? Is it the air? The water? If so, you need to start bottling it and selling it. Maybe that's how we can have more cash for poor teams such as the Yotes... Nope no biased or elitist thoughts in this post. We're safe folks!

 

[saskganesh]

Bettman clearly stated at the all-star game that money was being given to the Coyotes.

Comparing Phoenix to Winnipeg is just silly, I don't know why people continue to do it. The Coyotes should be moved because the Jets were moved is very, very flawed logic, and ignores the real world economics that the NHL operates in.

real world economics has nothing to do with who "deserves" a team, but which team has an owner or organisation behind it who can absorb losses so the team can continue to operate until the day that team turns a profit and everything turns up roses.

this applies to both "potential" market and "traditional" market teams. so whether its Moyes, the NHL, the NHL BOG, Balsilie, Barry Shenkarow or the City of Glendale/Winnipeg, it's the same bottom line.

 

[bishop12]

I'm confused. First the Coyotes are a bad team and that's the reason they are losing money. Suddenly, they get to Canada, and presto, they're a top tier team? Did I miss a day of school or something? Since when does playing in Canada make you a better team? Is it the air? The water? If so, you need to start bottling it and selling it. Maybe that's how we can have more cash for poor teams such as the Yotes... Nope no biased or elitist thoughts in this post. We're safe folks!

I think he means pro team, as opposed to top tier team.

 

[jessebelanger]

real world economics has nothing to do with who "deserves" a team, but which team has an owner or organisation behind it who can absorb losses so the team can continue to operate until the day that team turns a profit and everything turns up roses.

this applies to both "potential" market and "traditional" market teams. so whether its Moyes, the NHL, the NHL BOG, Balsilie, Barry Shenkarow or the City of Glendale/Winnipeg, it's the same bottom line.

That was my point.

This talk of Winnipeg "deserving" a team, or Phoenix not "deserving" a team....

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Worst case for Phoenix/ best case for Hamilton.

Yotes move to Hamilton.

Bulldogs move the Quebec City

New arena is built in KW

New top tier team in Canada

Revensue sharing goes up and lower level teams get more cash.

suggest you do some google searches using Hamilton Bulldogs as a key search term, BFC999

The current Bulldogs did in fact compete in Quebec City (1999-2002) after going through Fredericton, Sherbrooke and Halifax and even MTL going back to 1969, BUT found that due to the history/rivalry between the Nordiques (now Avalanche) and the Canadiens and the surging popularity of the Remparts forced the relocation to Hamilton.

 

[Valic]

The Senators were a team in the early 1900's and built a fan base foundation from there. They had such a huge fan base that they were given the franchise back in the early 90's if memory serves me right. Again, you can't compare the fan bases of the Coyotes to the Senators or any other Canadian team.

My statement about the Jets is twofold: One, they were an NHL franchise that struggled in Canada. Hence, the argument that "any team awarded to Canada will thrive" is debunked. And two, maybe we should be looking at the management of the franchise (Jets and Yotes) for answers as to why they struggled/are struggling.

Are you telling me the Canadian media isn't even slightly biased about moving the team back to Canada? Really?

The NHL has given money to many teams in the past including the Ottawa Senators. When the Senators were in trouble, did anyone even mention a relocation of the team? They didn't, you say? Well I wonder why that is...

Claiming the Ottawa region created a fanbase from a team they had 80 years ago is laughable.

We are not talking about moving the team to Winnipeg, we are talking about moving them to an area with ten times the population to draw from. If you have a single doubt that the team would be a lot more successful financially in Ontario compared to Pheonix you are in denial.

The onus is on the accuser to provide at least a semblance of fact to back up a claim about the Canadian media, or maybe a more fitting response to your arguement would be "Maybe the facts and figures you are getting in Arizona are biased".

Now about the Senators.... How long did they lose money? How long did it take them to be profitable. Now, how many years out of the 13 the Coyotes have had has a profit or even close to a profit been achieved? Comparing two completely different situations.

 

[Valic]

I'm confused. First the Coyotes are a bad team and that's the reason they are losing money. Suddenly, they get to Canada, and presto, they're a top tier team? Did I miss a day of school or something? Since when does playing in Canada make you a better team? Is it the air? The water? If so, you need to start bottling it and selling it. Maybe that's how we can have more cash for poor teams such as the Yotes... Nope no biased or elitist thoughts in this post. We're safe folks!

We'll for one, they would be able to you know, spend to the cap, not be stuck in a perpetual rebuild.

 

[Valic]

Bettman clearly stated at the all-star game that money was being given to the Coyotes.

Comparing Phoenix to Winnipeg is just silly, I don't know why people continue to do it. The Coyotes should be moved because the Jets were moved is very, very flawed logic, and ignores the real world economics that the NHL operates in.

The Coyotes should be sold and moved if that is the best offer being put forth for the Coyotes and their owner. If some American Billionare wants to buy the team and keep them in Phoenix and absorb losses until they can make a profit then FANFRICkINTASTIC. That is fine by me. If however, the NHL has to take control of the team, and they continue to be a financial burden for the league, then yes they should be moved to a profitable location.