Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes

[SuperDave21]

Despite the fact i am highly in favour of the team moving to S.Ont for the good of the league, this is a really good point. I'd love to see the debate on this point

Then again, the fans that will be "lost" are for the most part lukewarm (I know there are actual hockey fans in Phoenix, but not enough to carry a team as the numbers show). And while the NHL wouldn't be gaining fans in Hamilton, the fans they have their would be fanatical enough to support the team financially.

Personally, i think it sucks Hamilton and Phoenix can't both have a team. I've never been a fan of markets losing teams (i'm still bitter over the mass exodus out of Atlantic Canada by the AHL in the 90s), but Hamilton has fans who would support the team, and an owner whose willing to bankroll it. Phoenix has neither it seems. If we had to choose between the two, i'd say Hamilton would be the best move.

I think there's still life for hockey in Phoenix, they just have to find their niche. Maybe if they lose the Yotes, give them Hamilton's AHL team and see how that works? In the example i gave above for Atlantic Canada, the region that lost AHL has regained it's hockey footing with QMJHL franchises, which until recently have drawn some fo the largest crowds in the league and have acheived much success (. Crowds that i believe were larger than their AHL followings (but i'd need to double-check).

First off, thank you for the compliment on my argument.

I think when it comes down to it, the lateral move of fans from somewhere else to Hamilton, combined with the lost fans of Arizona, will ultimately result in a loss for the league. We can all argue till we're blue in the face about this, but adding another team in Canada will not result in a better revenue stream for the league, period. The people of Hamilton, I'm assuming, are already hockey fans. They probably drive to see their favorite team play and watch them on TV. So what happens with a new team in the city? They go see that team instead of the other team. That's it. That's not a new "fan" at all. You're just giving more nuts to the same squirrel: He's still going to eat them no matter where they came from.

In all honesty, I would love to see a new team in Canada, just not my Coyotes, or any other NHL team. An expansion team would be great, but there's really no point is there?

Since baseball is our national past time, look at what happened with the Expos. They moved to Washington, donned a new/old team name, and now what? They still stink and no one goes to games anymore. People love baseball in America. They love baseball in Washington. So what did the MLB gain by moving them? Not a damn thing. They are still the laughing stock of the league but now have different team colors and logos. The same thing will happen if the Coyotes move back to Canada. Hamilton fans will sell out the first few years (like the Coyotes and Nationals) and when they suck again, people will look elsewhere (like the Nationals).

 

[GSC]

Do you hear yourself as you type? I'm giving you examples of how hockey, as a sport, is growing in Arizona and you patronize me? How bitter are you, honestly? So Winnipeg lost their team, get over it. It's been 13 years, just let it go.

You can make all the arguments you want, but the real fact of the matter is, moving a team to Canada will be a lateral move for the NHL, period. More butts in seats? For the first few years maybe. Then what happens when they start losing or people lose interest in a Hamilton team? They go somewhere else, possibly to the same team they watched for years.

Stop assuming that there are no hockey fans in Arizona. Just stop. It takes time to build a fan base. The Leafs have that long line of season ticket holders BECAUSE THEY WERE PART OF THE ORIGINAL SIX. How long have those teams had to build a rabid fan base? Now compare it to our timeline. One of these things is not like the other...

FYI, I'm an American.

Let's assume this Southern Ontario team loses a bit to begin with, just like the Ottawa Senators did. Did Ottawa abandon their team? Hardly, they've embraced the Sens despite being stuck between the deep fanbases of Toronto and Montreal. Have Canadians in the Capital Region ditched the Sens because of the Leafs and Les Canadiens?

You really don't understand how incredibly popular and entrenched the game is in Canadian culture (by law, it's the national winter sport). Have you followed the world championships at all? Did you follow the world juniors this past year? Canadians do, with a passion. You provided weak examples of how the game is "growing" in Arizona. Compared to Canada and the entrenched American hockey markets (New England and the Great Lakes), you'll never meet the same level of interest and prowess. Not a chance.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

First of all, this whole chapter 11 filing is still going through the hearing process. Moyes, a scum bag, filed it behind the NHL's back. It's not a fair assessment to go from "NHL team files for bankruptcy so therefore hockey doesn't work in the state." That's narrow-minded. Hockey is thriving BECAUSE of the Coyotes existence in the state. Without them, we wouldn't even have travel teams. But according to some posters, our lack of talent makes us a less viable candidate for a hockey franchise or some other nonsense.

It's not U.S. vs. Canada. It only appears that way BECAUSE of the Canadian media. I don't want my team to move, period. I don't care if it's to Portland, K.C., Hamilton, or Brazil. I don't want them to leave my state.

I love your last statement though. "...so we can all enjoy it." Well except for people not in Canada, people in the southwest, or people with bad teams, correct? Beautiful words.

I'm in the US. Better than that, I'm in Columbus, Ohio! A freakin Blue Jackets fan and season ticketholder. Don't tell me about people not in Canada, people with bad teams, fans of teams that have been poorly run.

If Columbus lost the kind of money Phoenix appears to have lost, no matter how much I want a team and no matter how many thousands I spend on it, they would be gone. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

 

[Rick Middleton]

I really fail to understand how people can mix the concepts of potential with current. Phoenix is not a current hockey hotbed. It is a potential hockey hotbed. GTA is a current hockey hotbed, and will remain so until the end of time.

As it stands right now, the city of Phoenix has shown that it cannot support a hockey franchise. For whatever reason. Blame bad management. Blame bad luck. Blame bad whatever. But just as Winnipeg couldn't support an NHL franchise and to a lesser extent, Quebec City couldn't support an NHL franchise, Phoenix cannot currently support an NHL franchise.

This isn't about nationalism, this is about business. The business case for an NHL franchise in Phoenix is far weaker than the business case for a 2nd NHL franchise in the GTA. A 2nd NHL franchise in the GTA will never suffer from lower attendance. The simple mathematics of the GTA's population and obsession with hockey makes that an impossibility.

You can argue the illegality/immorality of Moyes move, but his move was precipitated by the fact that the Phoenix franchise was bleeding money at too high a level for it to remain sustainable.

 

[BogsDiamond]

It appears he was under the belief he was about to be stripped of the team, which would be sold on the cheap to Reinsdorf. I don't really blame him if his story is true.

I have to wonder if he had the legal right to do so though. And I'm sure the NHL and it's armada of lawyers are looking into this as well.

 

[Rick Middleton]

If Columbus lost the kind of money Phoenix appears to have lost, no matter how much I want a team and no matter how many thousands I spend on it, they would be gone. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

Precisely.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

Phoenix is a front runner city. If the team is winning then the seats will be filled, if not - then there are other things to do like golf.

I lived for 25 years in Phoenix and have attended 100's of Coyotes games and I can tell you that hockey can - and will - work in Arizona. If the team was not so horribly mismanaged both on and off the ice we would not be having these discussions. Moyes has been a HORRIBLE owner and the Gretzky experiment an unmitigated disaster.

Finally having a real GM like Don Maloney to run the team is a god-send. Having one of the best arenas in the NHL is a huge asset......the team has a stable of young talent that is ready to turn the corner.......all it needs is an owner like Reinsdorf and a good coaching staff to finally being it home.

I only hope that the PHOENIX COYOTES get the chance to pull it together to shut ALL of you up. Once they start winning you will be stunned to see the results and all of this "Phoenix sucks as a hockey market" will finally die off

Needing the team to be good in order to draw fans does not qualify the city as a good hockey market. Being able to fill seats regardless of whether the product on the ice is winning or losing makes you a good hockey market.

My two cents...there are too many teams in the NHL.

The talent pool is spread too thin, and you have too many mediocre players in the league. This makes the talented players worth more, and drives up the market for salaries. This intern makes it impossible for blossoming franchises to get any talent, and gives teams who can spend to the cap a massive advantage.

The truth is, watching a bunch of inexperienced youngsters lose games does not attract fans. And inexperienced youngsters are all these southern teams can count on, because the quality players make too much.

I don't think we should be moving teams, I think we should be contracting the league and distributing more of the talent evenly. Improve the quality of the product and people will be more likely to watch hockey over football or basketball.

Who gets the axe? How about we start with teams that have lost money for the last 5 years.

 

[Brodie]

I think so. Whether he ultimately gets a team or not, I think that Balsillie enjoys being a sort of Canadian folk hero. A Robin Hood robbing from the rich and sticking it to the evil Gary Bettman, and giving to the poor exploited Canadian hockey fans.

There's no other reason for his ridiculous PR stunts. Selling season tickets for a team he hadn't even made an offer to buy. Creating an online petition to somehow affect a process that would play out in bankruptcy court.

If Balsillie were really serious, the PR he should be concerned about is with the Board of Governors, not the Canadian public. All the public sentiment in the world isn't going to help him get a hockey team. He needs to play politics with the BoG, not PR with the media. But i think he likes cultivating a certain public image of himself.

Edit:

Case in point:

I'm sure he loves being the people's hero, but I think he's spent the past year hanging out with various owners making his case. This is just phase two of the marketing ploy, where he tries to make his case using demand.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Needing the team to be good in order to draw fans does not qualify the city as a good hockey market. Being able to fill seats regardless of whether the product on the ice is winning or losing makes you a good hockey market.

My two cents...there are too many teams in the NHL.

The talent pool is spread too thin, and you have too many mediocre players in the league. This makes the talented players worth more, and drives up the market for salaries. This intern makes it impossible for blossoming franchises to get any talent, and gives teams who can spend to the cap a massive advantage.

The truth is, watching a bunch of inexperienced youngsters lose games does not attract fans. And inexperienced youngsters are all these southern teams can count on, because the quality players make too much.

I don't think we should be moving teams, I think we should be contracting the league and distributing more of the talent evenly. Improve the quality of the product and people will be more likely to watch hockey over football or basketball.

Who gets the axe? How about we start with teams that have lost money for the last 5 years.

How many markets are there really that fill seats when the team is bad? If that's your qualification, Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and St. Louis aren't good hockey markets.

 

[Brodie]

I have to wonder if he had the legal right to do so though. And I'm sure the NHL and it's armada of lawyers are looking into this as well.

That's the biggest question here, and I believe it's for the judge to decide... we'll find out a lot tomorrow.

 

[kdb209]

I'm sure he loves being the people's hero, but I think he's spent the past year hanging out with various owners making his case. This is just phase two of the marketing ploy, where he tries to make his case using demand.

Unfortunately, this may very well backfire on him - just like his heavy handed approach during the Pred's soap opera.

He is coming across as a Canadian Al Davis - the last thing the NHL (or any professional sports league) wants - and seriously risks any good will he may have brokered over the last year.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2009/05/05/20090505biz-coyotes-CP.html

City administrators were giving council members an update on hockey negotiations Tuesday in a closed-door session when word of the bankruptcy surfaced. Glendale City Councilman Phil Lieberman said that bankruptcy was the one thing that could trump the penalty.

Moyes, meanwhile, was aggressively working on the bankruptcy petition. Scudder said he called Bettman and Daly about 3:30 p.m., when the filing occurred, notifying them.

Within 45 minutes, the NHL officials were meeting with Moyes at Swift Aviation Group, his jet business at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, where they gave him a document that removed Moyes from his post.

Scudder said the document was dated Tuesday, but he did not know when it was crafted. After a five-minute meeting, the NHL executives left for New York on a Learjet.

Susan Freeman, a bankruptcy attorney for Balsillie, said her client will ask the court to start a bidding auction that would begin in early June and end before June 26, the first day of the NHL draft. A winning bid would have to exceed Balsillie's offer by $5 million.

And some other interesting tidbits about which creditors are secured/not and what they are owed.


(I know I've read somewhere that the City of Glendale is in executive session this afternoon to discuss lease, but I can't find the article I was reading... will keep looking.)

 

[Valic]

In regards to people claiming Canadian teams do not want another team in Canada I call shenanigans.

Having another very successful team in the NHL as opposed to the biggest loser helps them financially does it not? More profit across the league means they have to pay less into revenue sharing or am I mistaken?

Having the league make more money as a whole, think new local TV deal, and additional merchandise and gate revenue, creates a stronger league overall financially.

Hell, I could see the Canadian teams happily accept the increase in revenue just so they have more cap space to work with.

Teams like the Oilers, Flames, and Canucks are very unlikely to be affected in terms of CBC games as the new team in the East would likely be on the first game, where the western teams very very rarely play. TSN is thriving and given another team to work with I could see them adding more games as opposed to retracting a couple games from the other teams.

 

[Evil Doctor]

What about the Islanders? The owner recently stated that he regretted buying the team earlier this month and yet no one seems to be talking about relocating the team as much as the Coyotes.

What about the Islanders? It's not even remotely relevent to the current Phoenix situation.

Our media attention has nothing to do with the Phoenix Coyotes organization. Not even a little bit. The Arizona Republic is a laughable example of a newspaper and our newscasters barely know anything outside of baseball and basketball, let alone a sport like hockey.

Media attention has everything to do with it, it's a reflection of basic fan interest.

The media to blame here is the Canadian media. They are so hell bent on getting a team to Canada that they will do and say anything. Unfortunately, a lot of people buy into their pieces of propaganda that they pass off as "news." What a joke. Anyone who reads The Globe and Mail for their daily news source should be sent off to an island somewhere to make beaded necklaces for a living.

Wow, I didn't know the Globe and Mail was such an influential paper in the Phoenix area....

So here is your chance to enlighten me about how hockey is so important in Phoenix and that they currently are not in bankruptcy and it's all Canadian propaganda....

 

[Brodie]

I have serious doubts about the legal advice that Balsillie has been receiving. I have done a great many JV deals, and his tactics are nothing short of ludicrous.

His PR is no better. A WEBSITE as the centerpiece of his hastily arranged press conference? A request for support from the public?

That being said, JB has nothing to lose. This may very well be a lark for him. It is almost as if he enjoys being an agent provateur.

I read one legal analyst say he was 60% sure the team will end up with Balsillie... I assume you think differently?

 

[Soundgarden]

Who gets the axe? How about we start with teams that have lost money for the last 5 years.

Only if Pittsburgh and Chicago are the first to go.

 

[roosterman]

I heard on the radio today (fan590) that there is a report that Jim B has offered Gretzky a 10-15% ownership stake and offered to name a new arena after his father...


who knows if this is true, but it keeps getting weirder by the moment...

 

[Brodie]

Unfortunately, this may very well backfire on him - just like his heavy handed approach during the Pred's soap opera.

He is coming across as a Canadian Al Davis - the last thing the NHL (or any professional sports league) wants - and seriously risks any good will he may have brokered over the last year.

I think he thinks there's a solid chance that the rest of the league is so tired of him being a thorn in their side that they'll let him in. He's also sure of two things:

That he's going to win in court and that his PR campaign will be so successful that the BOG will have to do what he wants.

Whether any of that can happen, obviously remains to be seen.

 

[GSC]

I'm in the US. Better than that, I'm in Columbus, Ohio! A freakin Blue Jackets fan and season ticketholder. Don't tell me about people not in Canada, people with bad teams, fans of teams that have been poorly run.

If Columbus lost the kind of money Phoenix appears to have lost, no matter how much I want a team and no matter how many thousands I spend on it, they would be gone. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

I'm from Youngstown, OH, not too far from you (fun fact: Ohio was once considered part of Canada). Columbus is an example of how the league can work in traditional markets and STILL grow. C-bus is a huge city (now the most populous city in Ohio) and it continues to grow in terms of its fan base.

Furthermore, it's situated in a region where the game has thrived already. And it throws out the argument that situating a team between two traditional markets - Detroit and Pittsburgh - will somehow make it less viable. I'm not a Jackets fan (Oilers fan), but I do love what the city has done with the team and with the NHL realizing that mid-Ohio is one of the best options to place an NHL franchise.

 

[BogsDiamond]

I heard on the radio today (fan590) that there is a report that Jim B has offered Gretzky a 10-15% ownership stake and offered to name a new arena after his father...


who knows if this is true, but it keeps getting weirder by the moment...

LOL! I wouldn't be surprised.

Ballsillie is turning into the next Barnum and Bailey. Except he's a one man show. Hahaha!

This guy is getting more bizarre by the day. No wonder the BOG's don't like him.

 

[Evil Doctor]

How has the NHL propped up Washington and San Jose? Those teams are thriving right now.

And no, it doesn't make more sense to have teams in hockey markets and grow it from there. The NHL already has penetration into those markets. It needs to grow its penetration into non-hockey markets in order to bring more value to its product nationally. That's how the NFL is able to have a multi-billion dollar TV contract, and why they're the #1 league in the country, and arguably the world.

If you're starting up a brand new hockey league, that's the only scenario where it makes sense to only focus on hockey markets.

Who's talking about Washington and San Jose? I'm talking about Phoenix, Nashville, Atlanta, Miami, Tampa Bay, Raleigh...

You still haven't dealt with the central issue. They had a contract and now they don't. So how is that footprint working out?

 

[GSC2k2*]

I read one legal analyst say he was 60% sure the team will end up with Balsillie... I assume you think differently?

60%? A legal analyst said that? No lawyer worth his salt would give such a percentage, IMO. Why 60? Why not 62? 70? 75? 12?

If you read it, you must have a link or source, no?

 

[GSC]

Who's talking about Washington and San Jose? I'm talking about Phoenix, Nashville, Atlanta, Miami, Tampa Bay, Raleigh...

You still haven't dealt with the central issue. They had a contract and now they don't. So how is that footprint working out?

Yep, this is my favourite argument to hear from the Sun Belt supporters. "You need us for an American national TV contract!" Yeah, that's worked out so well...the NHL has Versus and a few NBC games (in which they focus on showing traditional teams). Not much of a contract, eh?

 

[LadyStanley]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2009/05/06/sp-doan-coyotes.html?ref=rss

Phoenix captain Shane Doan responds to situation. (Would deal with as part of business of hockey.)

 

[roosterman]

60%? A legal analyst said that? No lawyer worth his salt would give such a percentage, IMO. Why 60? Why not 62? 70? 75? 12?

If you read it, you must have a link or source, no?

There is no link but it was on Hockey Central and the Legal Analyst was Rod Becker.

He said 55-60% chance that JB would be successful in taking over the Yotes. I heard it as well.

Take it for what it's worth.

To me, if the sale is contigent on moving the franchise and a bankrupcy judge cannot approve a transfer of a team then I think there is a chance the bankruptcy judge says the 212M offer is not really a valid offer as he cannot approve a move.

Who knows...