Babcock fired by the Leafs discussion
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Great to see us in middle of a nice heater here with Keefe. By XMAS it will be Boston 1st, Tampa 2nd and Leafs 3rd. I hope it stays that way til seasons end (maybe we can end up with home ice vs Tampa). I think we can beat down Tampa. and then some wildcard will beat down Boston.
moon111
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Babcock was like a used `84 Ford 3/4 ton truck that was bought when we started our construction business.
It immediately made us a legit outfit. Over time, things broke. Over time, these issues became intolerable.
It was time for a new unit, and think it'll be even appreciated more, but think the old did carry the load to this point.
It immediately made us a legit outfit. Over time, things broke. Over time, these issues became intolerable.
It was time for a new unit, and think it'll be even appreciated more, but think the old did carry the load to this point.
TMLS
Registered User
We finished dead last in the league his first year. It was when Matthews/Marner/Nylander played together the second szn when we turned things around. Your giving this overated pos coach way too much credit here. Just like how people think he amazing coach bc he wont a gold medal with TEAM CANADA.
ULF_55
Moderator
Hyman leads the NHL in winning puck battles and creating Ozone turnovers and one of the best things for scoring goals by Matthews and JT would be to have someone get the puck.. Its really hard to score goals when the opposition has the puck.
I think Keefe is going use Hyman to bring games home when Leafs have the lead and closing out games and as his main PKer also.
Coaches love players like Hyman due to his effort level and 2-way play that allow you to play him throughout the line-up.
The first roster moves that Keefe made was to move Mikheyev and Hyman to JT wing while demoting the icetime of players like Kapanen and Johnsson.
I have no doubt Hyman will continue to be a big player for the Leafs, but I think we'll see bigger usage of the stars.
Hyman is just an easy target when he's playing and the stars are sitting and they're looking for offense.
Hyman can steal the puck and win puck battles all night long, but he shouldn't be taking offensive ice time from the stars when the team is trailing.
It isn't as bad as having the 4th. line out there when they need a goal late in a game.
Only exception would be if the Leafs have the worst sports science team in the league and their star players aren't as fit as other teams.
Clark4Ever
What we do in hockey echoes in eternity...
It will take some time for the Marner story to blow over, but I have no doubt he'll have offers from other NHL clubs before next season.
ULF_55
Moderator
I'm curious is an expansion team has a plane that is large enough to fit in his suitcases? They might have to weigh his baggage?
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
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I don't think people involved in the game will think that it was that big a deal.
Certainly not well thought through but not something that will be held against him, IMO.
You’re giving him no credit. Buffalo and Edmonton had great prospects and they struggled more than we have because of poor coaching.
When we finished last that was still an improvement over the season before. Babcock absolutely made us a better team and made players like Kadri and Reilly better. It was time for him to go, but he’s had a positive impact on this team.
ULF_55
Moderator
Everyone should agree he's a good coach.
The debate is how good.
He's probably there with several other 1 Cup coaches, but there have probably been better coaches who never won the Cup.
Trapper
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ULF_55
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moon111
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The thing is, any Babcock antics at the beginning would be put up with. I've never immediately quit on a jerk boss, especially if I was being paid well. But after enough was enough, I left even without another job lined up.
I think Babcock believed this team could win hockey games with their free-wheelin' style, but never a Championship. Hope they prove him wrong.
Mess
Global Moderator
The only thing I would add here is that Hyman is a LWer when everyone is healthy and not sure how much his icetime is based on centres AM and JT and RWers Marner and Nylander..
Keefe could run his offensive horses into the ground and really have no bearing on Hyman usage based on position..
Only if we see something new here where Keefe would follow the Pens or Oilers examples where they stack there #1C and were Crosby and Malkin play on the same line or McDavid and Draisaitl when done and need 3rd period offense..
So if we see Matthews tossed out there on LW replacing Hyman and joining Tavares and Marner to form 1 stacked line 5v5, that would be different via a coaching change.
Trapper
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Only this time we don’t want to go back in time. We want to move forward and evolve into something greater.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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let's be precise about the icetime in the first two games:
Even Strength:
Mikheyev 16:06 --- Tavares 17:00 --- Hyman 15:32
Johnsson 14:14 -- Matthews 16:53 -- Nylander 15:52
Kerfoot 12:46 ------ Spezza 10:56 ---- Kapanen 12:17
Engall 7:41 ------- Gauthier 7:11 ----- Petan 10:20/Shore 5:25
compared to the first 23 games:
Johnsson 13:57 - Matthews 15:59 -- Nylander 14:46
Hyman 14:47 --- Tavares 14:35 ---- Marner 13:16
Mikheyev 13:08 - Kerfoot 12:24 ---- Kapanen 12:44
Moore 10:29 ---- Gauthier 9:21 ---- Shore 8:31
(Petan 9:54 ----- Spezza 9:21 ------- Timashov 8:30)
and last year:
Hyman 14:16 --- Tavares 15:38 --- Marner 15:13
Marleau 14:07 -- Matthews 15:26 - Kapanen 14:00
Johnsson 11:56 - Kadri 13:05 ----- Nylander 13:23
Lindholm 9:40 - Gauthier 8:08 --- Brown 11:26
(Moore 8:47, Leivo 8:45, Ennis 8:17)
So we can already see a big difference - Matthews/Tavares lines are getting significantly more ice time, while the 3rd and 4th lines are playing less. That is awesome to see, imo. Two elite #1 centers actually getting elite #1C ice time. The 4th line on a stacked group of forwards getting very little ice time at all now. that's what we all should want to see.
Now technically hyman's ice time has actually gone up under Keefe, but that's a little misleading. It's clearer when you list the forwards in order of ice time:
Under Babcock This Year
1.Matthews 15:59
2.Hyman 14:47
3.Nylander 14:46
4.Tavares 14:35
5.Johnsson 13:57
6.Marner 13:16
Under Keefe
1.Tavares 17:00
2.Matthews 16:53
3.Mikheyev 16:06
4.Nylander 15:52
5.Hyman 15:32
6.Johnsson 14:22
So for babcock, Hyman was literally one of his most important even strength forwards even this year - 2nd of the forwards in ES toi, even ahead of Tavares, and WAY ahead of Marner. That's obviously just really dumb.
Under Keefe, while Hyman has so far kept his spot on the top 2 lines, he's clearly being used as the 3rd wheel on his line, like Johnsson on the matthews line. As a complementary top-6er, not as a lynchpin.
The bigger question is what happens when Marner comes back. There's a few possibilities there:
1. Marner replaces Mikheyeve again. This would be the best for Hyman's ice time, as the Tavares line would remain a co-1st line, and Hyman, while clear 3rd wheel, would still get plenty of ice time.
2. Marner replaces Johnsson on the Matthews line. In this case, the Matthews line would get even more ice time, and the Tavares line even less, and would probably result in hyman getting the least amount of ES toi in the top6. there would even be a chance that Johnsson and Mikheyev get the 2nd line spots, and hyman is dropped to the 3rd line.
3. Marner could simply replace Hyman on that tavares line, with hyman getting bumped to the 3rd line.
whichever happens, I'm betting we've seen the end of Hyman getting amongst the highest ES toi on the team going forward. If he stays in the top-6, I'm betting he'll be the clearcut #6 in terms of toi.
Even Strength:
Mikheyev 16:06 --- Tavares 17:00 --- Hyman 15:32
Johnsson 14:14 -- Matthews 16:53 -- Nylander 15:52
Kerfoot 12:46 ------ Spezza 10:56 ---- Kapanen 12:17
Engall 7:41 ------- Gauthier 7:11 ----- Petan 10:20/Shore 5:25
compared to the first 23 games:
Johnsson 13:57 - Matthews 15:59 -- Nylander 14:46
Hyman 14:47 --- Tavares 14:35 ---- Marner 13:16
Mikheyev 13:08 - Kerfoot 12:24 ---- Kapanen 12:44
Moore 10:29 ---- Gauthier 9:21 ---- Shore 8:31
(Petan 9:54 ----- Spezza 9:21 ------- Timashov 8:30)
and last year:
Hyman 14:16 --- Tavares 15:38 --- Marner 15:13
Marleau 14:07 -- Matthews 15:26 - Kapanen 14:00
Johnsson 11:56 - Kadri 13:05 ----- Nylander 13:23
Lindholm 9:40 - Gauthier 8:08 --- Brown 11:26
(Moore 8:47, Leivo 8:45, Ennis 8:17)
So we can already see a big difference - Matthews/Tavares lines are getting significantly more ice time, while the 3rd and 4th lines are playing less. That is awesome to see, imo. Two elite #1 centers actually getting elite #1C ice time. The 4th line on a stacked group of forwards getting very little ice time at all now. that's what we all should want to see.
Now technically hyman's ice time has actually gone up under Keefe, but that's a little misleading. It's clearer when you list the forwards in order of ice time:
Under Babcock This Year
1.Matthews 15:59
2.Hyman 14:47
3.Nylander 14:46
4.Tavares 14:35
5.Johnsson 13:57
6.Marner 13:16
Under Keefe
1.Tavares 17:00
2.Matthews 16:53
3.Mikheyev 16:06
4.Nylander 15:52
5.Hyman 15:32
6.Johnsson 14:22
So for babcock, Hyman was literally one of his most important even strength forwards even this year - 2nd of the forwards in ES toi, even ahead of Tavares, and WAY ahead of Marner. That's obviously just really dumb.
Under Keefe, while Hyman has so far kept his spot on the top 2 lines, he's clearly being used as the 3rd wheel on his line, like Johnsson on the matthews line. As a complementary top-6er, not as a lynchpin.
The bigger question is what happens when Marner comes back. There's a few possibilities there:
1. Marner replaces Mikheyeve again. This would be the best for Hyman's ice time, as the Tavares line would remain a co-1st line, and Hyman, while clear 3rd wheel, would still get plenty of ice time.
2. Marner replaces Johnsson on the Matthews line. In this case, the Matthews line would get even more ice time, and the Tavares line even less, and would probably result in hyman getting the least amount of ES toi in the top6. there would even be a chance that Johnsson and Mikheyev get the 2nd line spots, and hyman is dropped to the 3rd line.
3. Marner could simply replace Hyman on that tavares line, with hyman getting bumped to the 3rd line.
whichever happens, I'm betting we've seen the end of Hyman getting amongst the highest ES toi on the team going forward. If he stays in the top-6, I'm betting he'll be the clearcut #6 in terms of toi.
Gary Nylund
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It's not clear to me that coaching was the reason that EDM/BUF struggled.
I give Babcock zero credit for Kadri who was developing into a fine player as it is. Rielly, maybe some credit there though I think he was also on track to become a fine player as well.
I agree he had a positive impact, his first two years were really good. A lot of that was just due to reputation though IMO, this place was a nuthouse and having a "name" at the helm helped steady the ship some. After that though, he stared going downhill so for a "star" coach signed to 7 years, I'd say his overall performance is meh.
If I had to single out one player who thrived and might not have done as well under another coach it would be Hyman.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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no doubt that the fact that none of the kids struggled too much under babcock is worth complimenting.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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funny thing is that the marner story will look like nothing if these other stories all keep coming out.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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the other thing to remember is that the sport is always changing. strategies evolve and improve as new coaches come along and try to figure out how to beat the ones before them.
a good coach can become a bad coach if he stops trying new things. being even a great coach 10yrs ago doesn't mean you'll be even a good coach now, if you're just relying on the samestrategies you were then.
Clark4Ever
What we do in hockey echoes in eternity...
Gary Nylund
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DavePoulin4PM
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It's good for coaches to take some time off and look at the game through a different lense. The man has been coaching for 15 straight seasons. Seeing the game from an outsiders perspective is great for a coach. Being in the trenches for 15 years is a long time and it's VERY easy to put the blinders on. Babs will come back a much better coach after some time off. The exact same thing happened with Torts after his terrible one year stint in Vancouver.. he changed his approach ( he is still a hard ass though!) and he was yielded good results with what he has had to work with.
It doesn't seem like Marner holds much ill will towards Babs, so fans shouldn't either.
It doesn't seem like Marner holds much ill will towards Babs, so fans shouldn't either.
LeafsLegendAkiBerg
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I'm curious what, if anything, Lou actually did about this when it was brought to his attention. I know he and Marner approached Shanahan about it. Lou doesn't strike me as the type of guy who would look out for his players. Just look at the shit he pulled in New Jersey. IMO Babcock should've been fired then and there.
LeafsLegendAkiBerg
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The nicest thing I've seen under Keefe was on our PP last game. He calls a timeout and keeps our top unit on to try to push for a goal to increase our lead. It's so simple and obvious but Babcock would never do that in a million years. We'd have gotten 40 seconds of the first PP, 40 seconds of the second PP and then the 4th line. Hell, Babcock was pretty allergic to using his timeout full stop.
To me this bodes very well. If we're in the playoffs and it's game 7 and we're down a goal I'm confident Keefe is actually going to play our best players.
