Babcock fired by the Leafs discussion

[Dough72]

he deserves some criticism for the Marner thing, but not much. I only glanced at the other complaints but it all sounds like normal coaching to me.

 

[Pookie]

I suffer from anxiety and every single day is a battle. Criticism is often taken as attacks and makes it worse whether the 'attacker' meant it or not. I too feel sorry for me, my employer, my family and everyone I know as it's not fun to deal with but it's also not really something you can entirely avoid or blame others for. You really have to know your limits.

Who knows, maybe Babs really was going over the line with Franz, maybe he was singling him out or making his life unbearable on purpose.
From experience I can also see a point that maybe he was just coaching.

Sorry that was way more preachy than I meant it to be.

You aren’t alone my friend.

MBSR, CBT, SSRIs... know them all too well.

We are all imperfectly perfect. And that’s ok.

 

[The Apologist]

With some hindsight, you could say that Babcock's decision to push Franzen's buttons a certain may not have been the best choice when it came to the mental health of the player, but between his long history of concussion problems and head trauma suffered playing the game, you have to wonder. Strangely enough, Franzen's entire career, minus two games with Jeff Blashill, was coached by Babcock.

I agree although I wonder if Franzen ever made him aware of it. I just recently found the courage to discuss it at work after years of fearing for my job if I did.
It's not easy to do but you can't really blame others for things they can't possibly understand.
While Babs is a jerk (you almost have to be to succeed in pro sports) I doubt he's a psychology major.

 

[Semantics]

he deserves some criticism for the Marner thing, but not much. I only glanced at the other complaints but it all sounds like normal coaching to me.

Why is no one speaking out against the dozens of other normal coaches then?

 

[The Apologist]

Why is no one speaking out against the dozens of other normal coaches then?

They haven't been fired yet.

 

[CelticDruid]

You aren’t alone my friend.

MBSR, CBT, SSRIs... know them all too well.

We are all imperfectly perfect. And that’s ok.

Well said.

 

[CelticDruid]

Delete.

 

[Polaris1010]

Well . . .

After reading the reactions to this Flyers game . . .

Fire Shanahan . . . fire Dubas . . .

Bring back Randy Carlyle!

 

[sxvnert]

Screaming at players who have guaranteed no move million dollar contracts is pointless. Reducing ice time will always send the best message.
Put Matthews on the third line for a couple of games to see if that improves his defensive play.

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[cesareborgia]

Just to clarify: like many of you, I was on the fire Babcock train.

We made a mistake. Babcock was not the problem at all. In fact, at least he tried to hold the players accountable when they didn't show up. The problem was always with the players and therefore Dubas. We need to get rid of the wonder boy before he devastates this team even more, Awful, awful GM. It was the most important period for the franchise in the last few decades. With a competent GM, we are a legitimate cup threat. With wonder boy ... well the results speak for themselves.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Just to clarify: like many of you, I was on the fire Babcock train.

We made a mistake. Babcock was not the problem at all. In fact, at least he tried to hold the players accountable when they didn't show up. The problem was always with the players and therefore Dubas. We need to get rid of the wonder boy before he devastates this team even more, Awful, awful GM. It was the most important period for the franchise in that last few decades. With a competent GM, we are a legitimate cup threat. With wonder boy ... well the results speak for themselves.

What does a competent GM do with this roster? Do we have all of Matthews, Marner, and Nylander sitting right now without contracts until they're all willing to sign for 7x8?

 

[cesareborgia]

What does a competent GM do with this roster? Do we have all of Matthews, Marner, and Nylander sitting right now without contracts until they're all willing to sign for 7x8?

I guarantee that a competent GM would never say something as idiotic as "we can and we will." Rather, something not idiotic like "we want them on our team, but only if the price is right."

The team held all the cards and had all the leverage. Wonder boy couldn't understand this.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I guarantee that a competent GM would never say something as idiotic as "we can and we will." Rather, something not idiotic like "we want them on our team, but only if the price is right."

The team held all the cards and had all the leverage. Wonder boy couldn't understand this.

That quote really doesn't matter but ok.

It's 5 minutes until December 1st and Nylander is unsigned during one of your key competitive years, he's sitting firm on a 8x8 deal. If you don't sign him, you have your 3 best players without contracts and 100% of the leverage in about 6 months, they now have no motivation to sign early or cheap because they recognize they have you bent over a barrel if they choose to negotiate as a group.

What's the play?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I just read that Hockeybuzz article from 2007 that said that Detroit players 100% turned on Babcock and Shanahan left Detroit because of Babcock.

Im just confused at this point. Why would Shanahan fight so hard to get him as leafs head coach?

 

[cesareborgia]

That quote really doesn't matter but ok.

It's 5 minutes until December 1st and Nylander is unsigned during one of your key competitive years, he's sitting firm on a 8x8 deal. If you don't sign him, you have your 3 best players without contracts and 100% of the leverage in about 6 months, they now have no motivation to sign early or cheap because they recognize they have you bent over a barrel if they choose to negotiate as a group.

What's the play?

You're confused. The moment they realized they have wonder boy bent over a barrel was when he blinked with 5 minutes left until December 1st.

Essentially, what we did with with wonder boy is, we took the pilot of a single engine Cessna and threw him into a 747 Jumbo. We were bound to crash land. No experience, no knowledge, no respect from the players. What we need now is a competent GM that can pull this plane out of a dive. Wonder boy does not have the ability to do this. He lives in a fantasy world of "new age hockey" and simply lacks the hockey knowledge needed to be in charge of a team. Don't get me started about his negotiation skills.

I said it before, turned a golden ticket into a pile of feces.

Edit: and the quote does matter, don't be so naive.

 

[Martin Skoula]

You're confused. The moment they realized they have wonder boy bent over a barrel was when he blinked with 5 minutes left until December 1st.

Essentially, what we did with with wonder boy is, we took the pilot of a single engine Cessna and threw him into a 747 Jumbo. We were bound to crash land. No experience, no knowledge, no respect from the players. What we need now is a competent GM that can pull this plane out of a dive. Wonder boy does not have the ability to do this. He lives in a fantasy world of "new age hockey" and simply lacks the hockey knowledge needed to be in charge of a team. Don't get me started about his negotiation skills.

I said it before, turned a golden ticket into a pile of feces.

Edit: and the quote does matter, don't be so naive.

Ok so you keep Nylander unsigned throughout the year, hit July 1st, and now you have your 3 best players without contracts. You can't spend that cap space, so you miss out on any free agents that actually matter. You can't trade them, you'll never get full value for unsigned RFAs demanding 10+ mil. Nylander's price went up as the cap ceiling went up, so you can no longer even get him for 7x6. This drives the other 2's asks up as well obviously.

Don't use horrible analogies that have no tie to anything happening right now, give me specific examples of what he's doing that's wrong. I can't imagine you can make a coherent argument that the big 3 are overpaid by more than 3 million collectively. Our most physical players are either guys he traded for/signed (Hyman, Muzzin, Tavares, Mikheyev) or guys that played under him and Keefe in the Marlies (Timashov, Engvall, Moore, Marchment and Korshkov in the future). Which part of this is "new age hockey"? Getting Petan? One 4th liner that plays 8 minutes every few games?

Is it preferring to not give away the puck for free on endless dump and chases? Is that "new age hockey"? Define it for me, please. Right now it's just a boogeyman thought-terminating cliche so you don't have to actually make real arguments, you can just stick to MILLENIAL NERDS = DUMMIES.

 

[cesareborgia]

Ok so you keep Nylander unsigned throughout the year, hit July 1st, and now you have your 3 best players without contracts. You can't spend that cap space, so you miss out on any free agents that actually matter. You can't trade them, you'll never get full value for unsigned RFAs demanding 10+ mil. Nylander's price went up as the cap ceiling went up, so you can no longer even get him for 7x6. This drives the other 2's asks up as well obviously.

Don't use horrible analogies that have no tie to anything happening right now, give me specific examples of what he's doing that's wrong. I can't imagine you can make a coherent argument that the big 3 are overpaid by more than 3 million collectively. Our most physical players are either guys he traded for/signed (Hyman, Muzzin, Tavares, Mikheyev) or guys that played under him and Keefe in the Marlies (Timashov, Engvall, Moore, Marchment and Korshkov in the future). Which part of this is "new age hockey"? Getting Petan? One 4th liner that plays 8 minutes every few games?

Is it preferring to not give away the puck for free on endless dump and chases? Is that "new age hockey"? Define it for me, please. Right now it's just a boogeyman thought-terminating cliche so you don't have to actually make real arguments, you can just stick to MILLENIAL NERDS = DUMMIES.

Oh yeah, Nylander's value just skyrocketed after not playing for an entire year and Paternak netted 35-45 on a 6.6 contract. My friend, I don't think you have an ounce of understanding of what goes on in a negotiation. And that's fine, but don't try to argue things you don't have much knowledge about, it doesn't look good.

You get them to sign fair contracts, or you get them to sit. That simple. No chance they all resort to sitting out for who knows how long and getting paid exactly $0. These are kids who cannot wait to begin their lives as millionaires. The whispers in the media of them not caring about the team or their teammates will turn into screams. They will fold. Admittedly, probably not to a GM they don't respect like Dubas, but to a serious, competent GM, they fold.

And "new age hockey" in wonder boys's world is essentially a bunch of Cinderellas prancing around like Rudolph, and cruising to 8-4 victories. Except, unlike in wonder boy's fantasy land, hockey is an extremely physical game.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Oh yeah, Nylander's value just skyrocketed after not playing for an entire year and Paternak netted 35-45 on a 6.6 contract. My friend, I don't think you have an ounce of understanding of what goes on in a negotiation. And that's fine, but don't try to argue things you don't have much knowledge about, it doesn't look good.

You get them to sign fair contracts, or you get them to sit. That simple. No chance they all resort to sitting out for who knows how long and getting paid exactly $0. These are kids who cannot wait to begin their lives as millionaires. The whispers in the media of them not caring about the team or their teammates will turn into screams. They will fold. Admittedly, probably not to a GM they don't respect like Dubas, but to a serious, competent GM, they fold.

And "new age hockey" in wonder boys's world is essentially a bunch of Cinderellas prancing around like Rudolph, and cruising to 8-4 victories. Except, unlike in wonder boy's fantasy land, hockey is an extremely physical game.

Why is he bringing in the only players that hit on our team then? Muzzin seems like a weird guy to be in your Cinderella/Rudolph fantasy.

Why would they fold when they know you are not capable of fielding a competitive team without them? You don't have spendable cap space and you just lost your top-3 trade value assets. Their BATNA is playing in Europe and still making millions. The Leafs BATNA is running a top-6 of Johnsson-Tavares-Kapanen Marleau-Kadri-Brown. I wonder which of those two is worse.

The only Toronto GM I've seen fold recently is "respected vet" Lou folding and grovelling to get "respected vet" Marleau over here. 1 more year, a full NMC, and a million more per year than anyone else was offering him, yikes.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Just to clarify: like many of you, I was on the fire Babcock train.

We made a mistake. Babcock was not the problem at all. In fact, at least he tried to hold the players accountable when they didn't show up. The problem was always with the players and therefore Dubas. We need to get rid of the wonder boy before he devastates this team even more, Awful, awful GM. It was the most important period for the franchise in the last few decades. With a competent GM, we are a legitimate cup threat. With wonder boy ... well the results speak for themselves.

Nah, we did well. Babcock is a terrible person. Check out what Franzen said about him
https://www.tsn.ca/report-former-de...ered-while-playing-for-mike-babcock-1.1407213

 

[cesareborgia]

Why is he bringing in the only players that hit on our team then? Muzzin seems like a weird guy to be in your Cinderella/Rudolph fantasy.

Why would they fold when they know you are not capable of fielding a competitive team without them? You don't have spendable cap space and you just lost your top-3 trade value assets.

The only Toronto GM I've seen fold recently is "respected vet" Lou folding and grovelling to get "respected vet" Marleau over here. 1 more year, a full NMC, and a million more per year than anyone else was offering him, yikes.

They fold because they will get exactly $0. They fold because you threaten to sign them for what they want and then trade them to Buffalo or Columbus. They fold because the entire city is starting to hate them. But no, they don't fold to a nincompoop GM like wonder boy.

And there you go again, talking about things you have no clue about. For all you know, Lou could have purposely gotten the final year to get the kids for less, to show them if they want to be greedy, then their father figure on the team will have to go. You have no idea what the plan was. But what is known, is that only wonder boy would give up a first so that he could have room to sign Marner at 10.9. Just lol.

 

[cesareborgia]

Nah, we did well. Babcock is a terrible person. Check out what Franzen said about him
https://www.tsn.ca/report-former-de...ered-while-playing-for-mike-babcock-1.1407213

To be fair, I don't care much about his character if he's a good coach who holds his players accountable. I also have a hard time feeling sorry for a player saying the coach said something mean, when said player makes millions. I'm sure many people get "verbal abuse" from their boss, except most people don't get paid millions to endure it. Honestly getting crybaby vibes from Franzen.

I need to be clear here, all I care about is a cup, not the feelings of these multi-millionaires.

 

[hotpaws]

I just read that Hockeybuzz article from 2007 that said that Detroit players 100% turned on Babcock and Shanahan left Detroit because of Babcock.

Im just confused at this point. Why would Shanahan fight so hard to get him as leafs head coach?

you can hate a person and still believe they are very qualified at their job

every coach has a shelf life so Shanny probably believed even though he and some of the players couldn't stand him he would help turn this team around

there's also an article saying Dats talked the soup man into signing here to play for Babs so maybe not all the players hated playing for him

 

[hotpaws]

Why is he bringing in the only players that hit on our team then? Muzzin seems like a weird guy to be in your Cinderella/Rudolph fantasy.

Why would they fold when they know you are not capable of fielding a competitive team without them? You don't have spendable cap space and you just lost your top-3 trade value assets. Their BATNA is playing in Europe and still making millions. The Leafs BATNA is running a top-6 of Johnsson-Tavares-Kapanen Marleau-Kadri-Brown. I wonder which of those two is worse.

The only Toronto GM I've seen fold recently is "respected vet" Lou folding and grovelling to get "respected vet" Marleau over here. 1 more year, a full NMC, and a million more per year than anyone else was offering him, yikes.

and LL showed he could make bad contracts disappear without pain like Phaneuf/Lupul/Robidas that he inherited so he probably wasn't too worried about dumping Marleau's last year pain free if he had too

 

[MarnerElite]

I just read that Hockeybuzz article from 2007 that said that Detroit players 100% turned on Babcock and Shanahan left Detroit because of Babcock.

Im just confused at this point. Why would Shanahan fight so hard to get him as leafs head coach?

Yeah doesn't make much sense.

Just saw Holland talking too and i found it interesting how he was extremely cautious in what he was going to say. Felt like he knew a lot more and it wasn't a big deal to him but didn't want to say it in those words. I kind of agree with some of the other posters. It does look like Babcock isn't very friendly around players(to put it extremely nicely lol) but having been around many people who suffer from anxiety(myself included), i've noticed that some people are a lot more sensitive than others and need to be communicated in a different way/tone. Babcock doesn't get this because he's too much about old way of doing things(tough love and all) and so you end with some players who don't mind it(which Holland mentioned) and others who will be extremely bothered by it.