Babcock fired by the Leafs discussion

[Joey Hoser]

You're the one that said I was whining and playing the victim.

Why say that if you can't specify of what I am a victim of ?

You clearly have no intention of discussing the actual subject. Never mind.

 

[Teeder Keon]

You clearly have no intention of discussing the actual subject. Never mind.

C’mon boys and girls , it’s Leaf night and we will hammer that Halloween team tonight !
Leafs Nation
GLG

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I never said anything about that specific situation, all I wanted to do was to help you on the road to understanding that there is a difference between yelling and mental abuse. I'll quit while I'm ahead, enjoy the game tonight!

All I’ve said is that I haven’t as yet seen enough evidence to conclude that Babcock crossed the like from “yelling” at Franzen to “emotionally abusing”.

It’s amazing that that’s offended you so much.
I also wouldn’t say what he did to Marner was “emotional abuse” either. It wasn’t very nice. But neither is screaming at someone.

 

[Kiwi]

See, the problem is, the people who don't understand this, are stupid, and can't understand it.

"Mental abuse" is a subjective term that's open to a massive amount of personal interpretation

I've had that 2) example done to me and in no way did I see it as "Mental abuse", it was an accepted coaching practice at the time

For instance calling people who don't agree with you "stupid" could also be interpreted as "Mental abuse" because guess what? It's subjective

Franzen was having psychological problems but I'm going to need to see what Babcock said to him, how often and Franzen's mental state before I'd accuse someone of something like "psychological abuse"

 

[Throw More Waffles]

"Mental abuse" is a subjective term that's open to a massive amount of personal interpretation

I've had that 2) example done to me and in no way did I see it as "Mental abuse", it was an accepted coaching practice at the time

For instance calling people who don't agree with you "stupid" could also be interpreted as "Mental abuse" because guess what? It's subjective

Franzen was having psychological problems but I'm going to need to see what Babcock said to him, how often and Franzen's mental state before I'd accuse someone of something like "psychological abuse"

I’m still waiting to hear what the specific line is between “shouting at” and “mentally abusing”... and then to hear what specifically Babcock said that crossed that line.

I mean... these guys are acting so high and mighty, but then get awfully vague when we actually question their virtue signalling.

 

[CelticDruid]

"Mental abuse" is a subjective term that's open to a massive amount of personal interpretation

I've had that 2) example done to me and in no way did I see it as "Mental abuse", it was an accepted coaching practice at the time

For instance calling people who don't agree with you "stupid" could also be interpreted as "Mental abuse" because guess what? It's subjective

Franzen was having psychological problems but I'm going to need to see what Babcock said to him, how often and Franzen's mental state before I'd accuse someone of something like "psychological abuse"

Yes, I noticed that, but I didn't want to get into it as it's like driving nails into your own forehead.

People in glass houses and all that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

All I’ve said is that I haven’t as yet seen enough evidence to conclude that Babcock crossed the like from “yelling” at Franzen to “emotionally abusing”.

It’s amazing that that’s offended you so much.
I also wouldn’t say what he did to Marner was “emotional abuse” either. It wasn’t very nice. But neither is screaming at someone.

If you've already forgotten what you've said in previous posts then I feel for you buddy, I really do.

 

[saffronleaf]

I'm sure the apologists will come out in full force to defend Cruelcock over yet another allegation:

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I'm sure the apologists will come out in full force to defend Cruelcock over yet another allegation:

As far as I can tell, everybody agrees that he yells at people sometimes. There is then a debate that’s arisen asking if that qualifies as “abuse” or not. I still say no until I have actual evidence showing otherwise. Like, specific words that were used which crossed the line.

If actual evidence appears that shows he has been abusive, then I will then agree he is abusive.

 

[Kiwi]

I'm sure the apologists will come out in full force to defend Cruelcock over yet another allegation:

Is this one about him getting into the face and yelling at a journalist in 2008 because he wrote a story he didn't like?

Unless he threatened the reporter with physical assault, a racial slur or threatened to have his press credentials revoked this just an example of Babcock being an ass

Which isn't exactly new information

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

"Mental abuse" is a subjective term that's open to a massive amount of personal interpretation

I've had that 2) example done to me and in no way did I see it as "Mental abuse", it was an accepted coaching practice at the time

For instance calling people who don't agree with you "stupid" could also be interpreted as "Mental abuse" because guess what? It's subjective

Franzen was having psychological problems but I'm going to need to see what Babcock said to him, how often and Franzen's mental state before I'd accuse someone of something like "psychological abuse"

Why do you need to hear direct quotes? Is Franzen’s account not good enough?





I feel that if you make any employee or subordinate dread coming in to work or make them overly anxious you’ve probably crossed into abusive territory.

 

[CelticDruid]

I'm sure the apologists will come out in full force to defend Cruelcock over yet another allegation:

Got to watch out for these Apologists, as they be crazy old vegan folks playing bingo.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Why do you need to hear direct quotes? Is Franzen’s account not good enough?





I feel that if you make any employee or subordinate dread coming in to work or make them overly anxious you’ve probably crossed into abusive territory.

But he clearly has anxiety issues. He said he was scared to score goals when he was just entering the league because it would put the spotlight on him. Is that Babcocks fault as well?

 

[Kiwi]

Why do you need to hear direct quotes? Is Franzen’s account not good enough?





I feel that if you make any employee or subordinate dread coming in to work or make them overly anxious you’ve probably crossed into abusive territory.

Probably?

If somebody has underlying psychological problems (which it looks like Franzen may have had) we have no idea what it would take to make him feel that way

The guy is employed in one of the most mentally taxing industries in the entire world, by a fair margin

"Anxious" "afraid to make mistakes"
If your in a performance based sport a lot of people feel this way, it's mentally taxing

I'm not saying Babcock is a good person or he hasn't crossed a line but that isn't evidence of "mentally abusive behaviour"

 

[The Apologist]

Why do you need to hear direct quotes? Is Franzen’s account not good enough?





I feel that if you make any employee or subordinate dread coming in to work or make them overly anxious you’ve probably crossed into abusive territory.

Wow, I've worked for quite a few abusive companies.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Wow, I've worked for quite a few abusive companies.

Well then I feel sorry for you. Even in my blue collar job I never felt anxious or scared to go to work or make a mistake. Definitely didn’t witness any of my bosses verbally attacking employees that’s for sure.

 

[The Apologist]

Well then I feel sorry for you. Even in my blue collar job I never felt anxious or scared to go to work or make a mistake. Definitely didn’t witness any of my bosses verbally attacking employees that’s for sure.

I suffer from anxiety and every single day is a battle. Criticism is often taken as attacks and makes it worse whether the 'attacker' meant it or not. I too feel sorry for me, my employer, my family and everyone I know as it's not fun to deal with but it's also not really something you can entirely avoid or blame others for. You really have to know your limits.

Who knows, maybe Babs really was going over the line with Franz, maybe he was singling him out or making his life unbearable on purpose.
From experience I can also see a point that maybe he was just coaching.

Sorry that was way more preachy than I meant it to be.

 

[Menzinger]

Ots been quite a turn of events the last few days. When i got the news he was fired i had figured he'd be coaching again within a few months.

Now im not so sure that will be thr case.

 

[Pookie]

Why do you need to hear direct quotes? Is Franzen’s account not good enough?





I feel that if you make any employee or subordinate dread coming in to work or make them overly anxious you’ve probably crossed into abusive territory.

This is true.

The challenge is that none of us gets to define what is abusive/harassing.

That’s up to the person on the receiving end.

Franzen experienced and feels Babcock is the worst person in the world.

Shanahan was a teammate, saw the same things, heard the same stories and concluded he wanted him to be the Coach of the Leafs and the highest paid Coach in the NHL.

Same situation. Vastly different interpretations.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Funny how Babs was all about Bell let’s talk day, now some of things that come out, just seems odd.

 

[CupInSIX]

Why do you need to hear direct quotes? Is Franzen’s account not good enough?





I feel that if you make any employee or subordinate dread coming in to work or make them overly anxious you’ve probably crossed into abusive territory.

This probably explains why he was anti-goon.

And people thought he was ahead of the curve...

 

[Moonman]

Funny how Babs was all about Bell let’s talk day, now some of things that come out, just seems odd.

the guy clearly was never about practising what he preaches. in a word -- FRAUD.

 

[Pookie]

the guy clearly was never about practising what he preaches. in a word -- FRAUD.

What about Franzen’s teammate, Mr Shanahan?

He hired Babcock didn’t he? Saw the same stuff. Heard the same things.

 

[Stephen]

I suffer from anxiety and every single day is a battle. Criticism is often taken as attacks and makes it worse whether the 'attacker' meant it or not. I too feel sorry for me, my employer, my family and everyone I know as it's not fun to deal with but it's also not really something you can entirely avoid or blame others for. You really have to know your limits.

Who knows, maybe Babs really was going over the line with Franz, maybe he was singling him out or making his life unbearable on purpose.
From experience I can also see a point that maybe he was just coaching.

Sorry that was way more preachy than I meant it to be.

With some hindsight, you could say that Babcock's decision to push Franzen's buttons a certain may not have been the best choice when it came to the mental health of the player, but between his long history of concussion problems and head trauma suffered playing the game, you have to wonder. Strangely enough, Franzen's entire career, minus two games with Jeff Blashill, was coached by Babcock.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Babcock: I want you to make a lis...

Matthews: Shut the f*** you piece of shit for brains.

Babcock: ok bye...