Leaf Fans
Registered User
- Sep 29, 2017
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Athletic Has Leafs as 3rd best in contract Values
- Thread starter NoTeeth
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...and just how would folks around here respond to guy who puts up worse defensive numbers than Holl or Ceci in more or less the same roll (his super low hits/60 would leave him open to all sorts of "soft" accusations as well)?
I still think he does a decent job in his role but people around here are just ruthless. (cue our awesome broadcasters zooming in on defensive D whenever a goal goes in).
I think Nylander is far more dynamic and has been the more valuable player but Pesce would have had his perks as a stable RHD partner for Morgan for sure.
He is decent yes.. i was not a fan of his playoff but he has been decent
Cause i said hindsight is fun
Rielly Pesce
Brodie Liljegren
Sandin Holl
I'd say the bolded is a pretty fair take.
Sounds like we're right up against the edge at three - in your opinion. Since no team has done it yet with more than zero it's quite a stretch too.
With no proven ELC's and Murray in net to start the season I'm not sure we're in a good position to thread the needle here.
Ever notice the join date? September 2018. A few months after Dubas is hired as the GM. Since then, 15,000 posts.
Some of these Dubas advocates seem to be Dubas fans, not actual Leafs fans.
Throw More Waffles
Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
- Oct 9, 2015
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Nylander WAS overpaid at time of signing. Significantly.
He was a 20 goal/60 point player and his defenders were using a guy who paced for 37 goals/78 points on final elc year as his direct comparable. Nylander got the Pastrnak contract at the same term, FAR more front loaded, FAR more in signing bonuses, and 1 less ufa year. A disgusting contract that set the tone for the other core players. And Pastrnak also didn't have a literal write-off year where he was literally a disgraceful hockey player like Nylander did.
Remember... GOOD gm's don't pay 20 goal/60 point players on the HOPES they get better. They pay them JUST as a proven 20 goal/60 point player. Everybody in the world knew MacKinnon would be elite. Dubas would have paid him based on that. But MacKinnon's gm was a GOOD gm, paid him ONLY on what he'd proven at that point. That's what GOOD gm's do. Not rookies who literally admit they're "learning as they go".
Josey Wales
Registered User
- May 16, 2022
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The Athletic also employ assholes like Rob Rossi & Josh Yohe for Pittsburgh Athletic
But again, that's pretty much meaningless. Considering that the cap has only recently been at a point where 10m+ contracts exist, it's essentially the same as saying that a handful of teams - most of which weren't even in a competitive phase - didn't win the cup over the last half decade or so. And we've seen teams win with 9.5m forwards, which is not really a significant difference. We've seen teams win with all sorts of cap allocations, build styles, play styles, etc. over the years. There's no one way to win the cup. As long as you're getting good value out of your three 10m+ forwards, there's no real reason it should prevent a team from winning.
Poor drafting certainly doesn't help a setup like this, and our prospect pool was pretty depleted by the time we were entering this stage, but through effective management, we've still been able to add some non-drafted players to give us a similar effect that an ELC would at an ELC price, and we've really improved our prospect pool under Dubas. We have a good chance to add a couple effective ELC forwards this year. As for Murray, you can have your personal feelings about him, but at 4.7m, he's not really an example of not being able to allocate money elsewhere. We got him because we believe in him.
Leafsfan74
Registered User
- Jul 2, 2018
- 5,741
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As far as I am concerned none of it matters until there is a Cup. Fancy stats, individual awards, all star games, team records, all are nice but only Cups matter at the end of the day.
You could have horrible contracts but they deliver a.ring or two. No fan will care about the down years of the overpaymemts.
Habs are worst but they were in the Finals in covid year. How much wou!d Leaf management give to have a Cup Finals appearance?
Leafs have deserved better, but they need to realize it's them against the world.
You could have horrible contracts but they deliver a.ring or two. No fan will care about the down years of the overpaymemts.
Habs are worst but they were in the Finals in covid year. How much wou!d Leaf management give to have a Cup Finals appearance?
Leafs have deserved better, but they need to realize it's them against the world.
Once again you show you don't understand the game of hockey. So I'll explain the Montreal series for you.
Denault was on the ice to stop Matthews from scoring.
Matthews is on the ice to score goals.
Matthews had 0 goals and two points from games 3-7.
Considering what they're on the ice to do saying that Matthews "destroyed Denault" is laughable it was pretty obvious Denault owned him.
Of those 5 points he had in the entire series. 2 came on the power play ( since I know you love to devalue those) and 1 was in garbage time of game 7.
Really destroyed the Habs.
Marner had an impressive 4 assists. Insane that we get "goalied" basically every series.
Seems you're the one that needs the Montreal series explained to you.
Danault got heavily outplayed. It was visible in real time, and literally every metric that measures the flow of play shows that Danault got caved in. No player wants that.
Danault also got outscored while he was on the ice. The Matthews line scored 3 times as many goals as the Danault line. No player wants that.
Individually, Matthews had 5 times as many points as Danault. No player wants that.
The only reason that an injured Matthews didn't embarrass Danault even more than he already did was because Price stood on his head and Matthews hit a bunch of posts.
But tell me more about how you know hockey because you looked up Matthews' point total.
Not only is that not true, but also, it's not like the goalies that "goalied" us only "goalied" us. They "goalied" others too in the same playoffs.
DarkKnight
Professional Amateur
- Jan 17, 2017
- 35,587
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Anyone actually defending that Montreal series is irrelevant to intelligent discussion. That Game 6 in Montreal, the way we came out, is one of the most embarrassing displays I’ve ever seen. You can paint it all you want with convenient metrics but the canvas is rotten.
It was awful, but it's over and doesn't mean it'll happen every year like people think
Mess
Global Moderator
Don't count your chickens so fast.
The heavily favoured Leafs who won their Div played the lowest ranked #16 ranked Montreal and lost in 2020-21 with Jack Campbell in net.
The year prior the heavily favoured #5 Pens vs #24 Montreal in the best of 5 play-in rounds 2019-20 lost 3 games to 1 with Matt Murray in net.
The Leafs have just replaced Jack Campbell with Matt Murray the other goalie that lost in epic fashion to the lowest ranked team entering the playoffs.
“Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Winston Churchill. History never repeats itself. Every single historical moment is distinct from those past. However, we must learn from our mistakes so that we do not run the risk of repeating them.
Leafs just look like their asking for it.
socko
Registered User
I think you do pay for potential. I don't think you go into Matthews discussions expecting him to take RNH money. But if there is a disagreement between potential and production, I think that's where bridge deals come into play. If you don't want to bridge the player, then you may just be agreeing with them that they're worth more. If the player just wants too much money and they're not worth it, that's when you trade them. Ultimately the GM is responsible for the outcome.
I think you are spinning an odd narrative here though.
Are you really surpised a Habs team playing back at home coming off an overtime victory with their back still against the wall wouldnt come out hard in the first period? Its literally the norm for these situations no matter the teams and the period still ended at 0-0 after they blew their load. Tampa has had just as many "embarassing" moments but they won right? Why did they? They had multiple games during that cup run where they won games they had no business winning really and if it were the Leafs they would be even bigger "embarassments" than you think game 6 was. Only managing 15 shots in a game against the Canes? Getting almost doubled in shots in a game against the Habs? They won both games so its all good. Both those games were far more embarrassing for Tampa than the Leafs start in game 6 was though. Looked like they took the night off in both games but hey, they could afford to do that right. Got that x-factor.
I mean, in that game 6 after the first, the Leafs then proceded to take over the game, outshooting them 33-16 over nearly a full game of hockey (if you include the overtime). If not for Price, the series was over (the story of the entire Habs playoff run really). If that was a Tampa game with its inevitable 2-1 victory, is the team all of a sudden heroes with the same start? Yup.
Its a sad fact that every Leafs series has literally been a game of "switch the goalies and we win". Maybe Murray with his excellent playoff pedigree can finally change that......and for all the praise over the Habs making the finals, I wouldnt trade that run to be a crap team like they became for the next 5 years A cup? For sure! .......but no one is going to remember the Habs outside of being a poorly coached mediocre team carried by a massive cinderella goalie that still failed to win in the end. Their managment slit their own throats too doubling down on thinking their team was actually good.
What about Helle getting swept by the Habs in the 2nd round....or Lehner?
I think Price was more of a factor than the goalies he was facing. Just an insane playoff elevation we may not see again for a while. Vasy at least had an elite team in front of him.
This is not accurate. He had 2 61 point seasons in his ELC. His PPG was actually higher than both Draisaitl and Pastrnak. Not to mention, Clayton Keller got 7.15 not long after Nylander signed and had far worse numbers with more TOI.
Your Mackinnon comment is odd given Nylander had a better ELC than Mackinnon did. The cap had risen a lot. Mack got as much as he could with seasons of 63, 53 and 38 points. How is he getting paid what he was worth but Nylander what he would become? Nylander had 2 60 point seasons. Significant. It's almost like you're saying Nylander is only worth 6.9 right now. He's underpaid.
This idea Mackinnon took a discount is garbage. No truth to it whatsoever.
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He did not dude he did his job significantly better then the job Matthews did the job he's assigned to
It's like if we're in a series and Kampf holds mcdavid to 4 points and gets one and oilers fans are on here saying that mcdavid got 4 times the number of Points so he dominated him.
Hilarious that you keep using 3 times the number of goals etc because of how few that line scored. Shows you know you're incorrect. One line was there to stop the other from scoring they were successful at it it's not that hard to see who had the better series
Maybe our stars shouldn't get locked down so easily or we should be built better and we wouldn't get "goalied" so easily
Danault's job was not to get a top-line role, score nothing, get heavily outplayed and outscored by an injured player, and pray that Price stands on his head and a bunch of posts are hit, so that he can limit the bleeding to it only being bad and not an unmitigated disaster.
We didn't get "goalied" easily, and anybody that "goalied" us "goalied" others, suggesting that it had a lot more to do with the goalie going on a run than the team they were facing being built wrong. Anyway, we scored well on one of the best goalies in the league this past year, so not sure why you're still talking about this.
That was 100% his role and was his role all playoffs.
We didn't hit that many posts we were shutdown by a line with the specific task of shutting us down. Denault was one of the main reasons they made the runs.
As I said if Kampf shuts down mcdavid and oilers fans were coming on here to brag that he had 4 times as many points as kampf with a point total of 4 you'd think it's a stupid comment as well.
A bunch of posts were hit is 100% a made up comment. Guess that happens when you don't actually watch the games though
I'm bringing it up because 3/4 of your excuses are bullshit about goalies. We got "goalied" by a jackets team that won 1 game against Tampa so obviously you're taking out of your ass
Every year got "goalied" this year you decided to claim "it was basically the conference finals" and whine about an obvious pick by Holl because it was the one year the top line actually showed up
No, that was not his role. That is just getting massively outplayed. If you think his job was to get massively outplayed in every way, and that was the best they could possibly hope for, then you're really just arguing how amazing and massively valuable and impactful Matthews is.
I'm pretty sure it was reported that Matthews hit more posts than any other player in the 1st round of that year's playoffs.
If I remember correctly, Danault did have better moments in the playoffs after getting crushed by us, but the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd reason they made their run was Price.
Columbus continued getting hot goaltending into the Tampa series. Through the same amount of ice time, the SV% was almost identical. Korpisalo set the all-time playoff save record in that series. 0.950 goaltending is obviously not sustainable. Eventually, it runs out and often rebounds the other direction. Columbus actually still ended with a better series goal differential than any other team Tampa faced on their way to the cup.
"Playoffs!" then ignores Murray's multiple cups and great playoff record to point out a small blip in his record.
How is our mod so anti-Leafs?
Denault had 4 points the entire playoffs. You need to stop making shit up. He was their version of Kampf. The post thing is completely made up by you. The only thing close to that was Keefe claiming we had good chances to justify another loss. It was neither the narrative nor after a Google search anything that I could find reported
Columbus gave up 3/3/2/5 goals vs the lightning and averaged less then 30 shots the last 4 games he faced 47 shots the last two games and gave up 0 goals. His game one juiced his save percentage.
The lightning didn't get goalied in any game besides game one that they won
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