Athletic Has Leafs as 3rd best in contract Values

[Racer88]

Which has nothing to do with anything I said. Having top end players doesn't guarantee you a cup. Nothing guarantees you a cup. We know we lost. We've heard it 10 billion times. It happened. It's over and done with. It's time to move on and look forward instead of dwelling in the past and blaming the wrong things out of anger instead of reason.

My point is being able to say we have the top 4 players is meanless with out success

Only 6 teams in the league have been in the playoffs for the last 6 years in a row.

And……..

 

[Stamkos4life]

Agreed.

I don't think we will have the best group of four forwards forever or for long. I am just pointing out that if we are allocating so much money to them at least it is for the right group.

What does "the right group" mean?

I feel like "the right group" wouldn't have 4 consecutive first round losses but maybe that's just me.

Only 6 teams in the league have been in the playoffs for the last 6 years in a row.

How many of those have lost in the first round every single year?

 

[Notsince67]

What does "the right group" mean?

I feel like "the right group" wouldn't have 4 consecutive first round losses but maybe that's just me.



How many of those have lost in the first round every single year?

Damn. You have me. The leafs are below top 5 in the league for the last 6 years

 

[Stamkos4life]

Damn. You have me. The leafs are below top 5 in the league for the last 6 years

Yeah I'd say any team with zero playoff wins in 6 years is below the top 5.

 

[conFABulator]

What does "the right group" mean?

I feel like "the right group" wouldn't have 4 consecutive first round losses but maybe that's just me.

Sure, if you are saying a playoff round victory or nothing...then you are not going to change your mind.

I subscribe to continued patience. Do you know that Sakic inherited a team that had O'Rielly, Duchene, Barrie, Varalamov, Tanguay, MacKinnon and Landeskog and they didn't win a playoff round in their first four years?

I feel as though if the Leafs had won a round you wouldn't be satisfied and would just move the goalposts on this one.

 

[Stamkos4life]

Sure, if you are saying a playoff round victory or nothing...then you are not going to change your mind.

I subscribe to continued patience. Do you know that Sakic inherited a team that had O'Rielly, Duchene, Barrie, Varalamov, Tanguay, MacKinnon and Landeskog and they didn't win a playoff round in their first four years?

I feel as though if the Leafs had won a round you wouldn't be satisfied and would just move the goalposts on this one.

So, to clarify, you think "the right group" would lose four first rounds in a row? That honestly makes zero sense.

It is clear that dubas is not paying the "right group" or else we wouldn't be 0-4 under his leadership. The fact you can even suggest otherwise says a lot.

How many more seasons should we be patient for? If we lose in the first round again next year, should we just continue being patient?

Sakic inherited a flawed team that had just been co-run by Roy who has one of the most toxic personalities I have ever seen in the NHL.

After four consecutive first round losses, I expect more than 1 series win in order for dubas to keep his job. But for many dubas fan boys around here, getting respect in the hand shake line was more than enough.

I feel as though it doesn't matter how many seasons the Leafs fail to get past the first round, you'll just keep making excuses for dubas.

 

[conFABulator]

So, to clarify, you think "the right group" would lose four first rounds in a row? That honestly makes zero sense.

It is clear that dubas is not paying the "right group" or else we wouldn't be 0-4 under his leadership. The fact you can even suggest otherwise says a lot.

How many more seasons should we be patient for? If we lose in the first round again next year, should we just continue being patient?

Sakic inherited a flawed team that had just been co-run by Roy who has one of the most toxic personalities I have ever seen in the NHL.

After four consecutive first round losses, I expect more than 1 series win in order for dubas to keep his job. But for many dubas fan boys around here, getting respect in the hand shake line was more than enough.

I feel as though it doesn't matter how many seasons the Leafs fail to get past the first round, you'll just keep making excuses for dubas.

So, did the Avalanche have the wrong pair with MacKinnon and Landeskog? What woudl you have done, moved on from that pair of fire Sakic?

Tampa had a seven year run 08-15 (7 years) where they won two playoff rounds and missed the playoffs 5 times. That's two rounds in 7 years with a core of Stamkos, Hedman, and Kucherov. Even Vasilevsky was there for three of those years. Stevie Wonder came in as GM in 2010. Would you have dumped that core or Stevie Y or would you have been more patient for some reason?

Have you not noticed that there are a lot strange metrics for success and effectiveness that seem to be tailored around the Leafs in support of those that love to slag them?

There is only one thing that matters. Winning the cup! That's it. Do you know why so many talk about the Leafs not having been to a Cup Final in so many years, it's because the cup drought is less comfortable to make fun of...all Canadian teams are in at least 30 years of drought. Vancouver has never won, so now they make losing a cup final some sort of worthy accomplishment.

Winning a round? it would be nice for sure...but winning a round is NO ONE's definition of success...trust me, this will become apparent again as soon as the Leafs win won.

The core four? Why is that a magic number? Oh because the Leafs have a core four. Shouldn't the number be the core 20 you can fit under $82.5 million? Why talk about our four and their cap allocation and not talk about the Oilers defense? Maybe the Oilers is spending too much on their top 7 forwards + Nurse? Maybe their GREAT 8 is the reason why Barrie and Ceci are in their top 4.

 

[conFABulator]

So, to clarify, you think "the right group" would lose four first rounds in a row? That honestly makes zero sense.

It is clear that dubas is not paying the "right group" or else we wouldn't be 0-4 under his leadership. The fact you can even suggest otherwise says a lot.

How many more seasons should we be patient for? If we lose in the first round again next year, should we just continue being patient?

Sakic inherited a flawed team that had just been co-run by Roy who has one of the most toxic personalities I have ever seen in the NHL.

After four consecutive first round losses, I expect more than 1 series win in order for dubas to keep his job. But for many dubas fan boys around here, getting respect in the hand shake line was more than enough.

I feel as though it doesn't matter how many seasons the Leafs fail to get past the first round, you'll just keep making excuses for dubas.

So, did the Avalanche have the wrong pair with MacKinnon and Landeskog? What woudl you have done, moved on from that pair of fire Sakic?

Tampa had a seven year run 08-15 (7 years) where they won two playoff rounds and missed the playoffs 5 times. That's two rounds in 7 years with a core of Stamkos, Hedman, and Kucherov. Even Vasilevsky was there for three of those years. Stevie Wonder came in as GM in 2010. Would you have dumped that core or Stevie Y or would you have been more patient for some reason?

Have you not noticed that there are a lot strange metrics for success and effectiveness that seem to be tailored around the Leafs in support of those that love to slag them?

There is only one thing that matters. Winning the cup! That's it. Do you know why so many talk about the Leafs not having been to a Cup Final in so many years, it's because the cup drought is less comfortable to make fun of...all Canadian teams are in at least 30 years of drought. Vancouver has never won, so now they make losing a cup final some sort of worthy accomplishment.

Winning a round? it would be nice for sure...but winning a round is NO ONE's definition of success...trust me, this will become apparent again as soon as the Leafs win won.

The core four? Why is that a magic number? Oh because the Leafs have a core four. Shouldn't the number be the core 20 you can fit under $82.5 million? Why talk about our four and their cap allocation and not talk about the Oilers defense? Maybe the Oilers is spending too much on their top 7 forwards + Nurse? Maybe their GREAT 8 is the reason why Barrie and Ceci are in their top 4.

 

[hamzarocks]

So, did the Avalanche have the wrong pair with MacKinnon and Landeskog? What woudl you have done, moved on from that pair of fire Sakic?

Tampa had a seven year run 08-15 (7 years) where they won two playoff rounds and missed the playoffs 5 times. That's two rounds in 7 years with a core of Stamkos, Hedman, and Kucherov. Even Vasilevsky was there for three of those years. Stevie Wonder came in as GM in 2010. Would you have dumped that core or Stevie Y or would you have been more patient for some reason?

Have you not noticed that there are a lot strange metrics for success and effectiveness that seem to be tailored around the Leafs in support of those that love to slag them?

There is only one thing that matters. Winning the cup! That's it. Do you know why so many talk about the Leafs not having been to a Cup Final in so many years, it's because the cup drought is less comfortable to make fun of...all Canadian teams are in at least 30 years of drought. Vancouver has never won, so now they make losing a cup final some sort of worthy accomplishment.

Winning a round? it would be nice for sure...but winning a round is NO ONE's definition of success...trust me, this will become apparent again as soon as the Leafs win won.

The core four? Why is that a magic number? Oh because the Leafs have a core four. Shouldn't the number be the core 20 you can fit under $82.5 million? Why talk about our four and their cap allocation and not talk about the Oilers defense? Maybe the Oilers is spending too much on their top 7 forwards + Nurse? Maybe their GREAT 8 is the reason why Barrie and Ceci are in their top 4.

Your post is pretty misleading for the Tampa part

Kucherov was drafted in 2011, makes the NHL in 2014, and is a 4th liner his first. In 2015 he breaks into a top 6 quality forward. He was there for 2 years you posted

Vasilevsky was drafted in 2012 and makes the Bolts in 2015, he was a 16-game backup behind Bishop that

Hedman was drafted in 2009 but took until his 5th year in 2014 to become a #1D.

The bolts retooled their team again after the Stamkos/Hedman/Connelly initial rebuild failed

Their core players weren't as strong off the bat, so their expectations in the 2008 - 2015 window haven't been as high as the leafs in the 2018 - 2022 window so far.

Leafs don't need to win 1 round in 1 year. They need to continuously win rounds, make Conference finals, and get a few cups to be considered a top 5 team like many consider here

Hawks/Bruins/Pens/Tampa all were having/currently have deep playoff runs during their peaks and were making the playoffs consistently outside a few years.

The leafs haven't shown the ability to close out a team, at home on the road, in game 6, or game 7. The elite offense has not shown they can score and takeover in an elimination do or die game.

 

[conFABulator]

Your post is pretty misleading for the Tampa part

Kucherov was drafted in 2011, makes the NHL in 2014, and is a 4th liner his first. In 2015 he breaks into a top 6 quality forward. He was there for 2 years you posted

Vasilevsky was drafted in 2012 and makes the Bolts in 2015, he was a 16-game backup behind Bishop that

Hedman was drafted in 2009 but took until his 5th year in 2014 to become a #1D.

The bolts retooled their team again after the Stamkos/Hedman/Connelly initial rebuild failed

Their core players weren't as strong off the bat, so their expectations in the 2008 - 2015 window haven't been as high as the leafs in the 2018 - 2022 window so far.

Leafs don't need to win 1 round in 1 year. They need to continuously win rounds, make Conference finals, and get a few cups to be considered a top 5 team like many consider here

Hawks/Bruins/Pens/Tampa all were having/currently have deep playoff runs during their peaks and were making the playoffs consistently outside a few years.

The leafs haven't shown the ability to close out a team, at home on the road, in game 6, or game 7. The elite offense has not shown they can score and takeover in an elimination do or die game.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't intentionally misleading. I just looked at draft years and figured I would get enough of it right to make my point.

My point is that our goal is to win a cup and anything less than that will be a failure with this group.

I believe we are showing enough progress to stick with the plan. I don't like these arbitrary markers that people like to present as accepted fact for measuring progress.

I also don't like this "core four" concern as obviously the problem. These all seem to arbitrarily arrived at to support an anti-Leaf narrative.

My concerns? Win a game 7 please. Beat teams you should beat (Montreal, maybe CBJ). I am not delusional, I am also not unrealistic on how hard it is to win a cup. I think our best chance to get there is with this group, rather than anything drastic.

Having said this, I thought this was the offseason to consider trading Willy if it helped us get a goalie.

 

[Stamkos4life]

So, did the Avalanche have the wrong pair with MacKinnon and Landeskog? What woudl you have done, moved on from that pair of fire Sakic?

Tampa had a seven year run 08-15 (7 years) where they won two playoff rounds and missed the playoffs 5 times. That's two rounds in 7 years with a core of Stamkos, Hedman, and Kucherov. Even Vasilevsky was there for three of those years. Stevie Wonder came in as GM in 2010. Would you have dumped that core or Stevie Y or would you have been more patient for some reason?

Have you not noticed that there are a lot strange metrics for success and effectiveness that seem to be tailored around the Leafs in support of those that love to slag them?

There is only one thing that matters. Winning the cup! That's it. Do you know why so many talk about the Leafs not having been to a Cup Final in so many years, it's because the cup drought is less comfortable to make fun of...all Canadian teams are in at least 30 years of drought. Vancouver has never won, so now they make losing a cup final some sort of worthy accomplishment.

Winning a round? it would be nice for sure...but winning a round is NO ONE's definition of success...trust me, this will become apparent again as soon as the Leafs win won.

The core four? Why is that a magic number? Oh because the Leafs have a core four. Shouldn't the number be the core 20 you can fit under $82.5 million? Why talk about our four and their cap allocation and not talk about the Oilers defense? Maybe the Oilers is spending too much on their top 7 forwards + Nurse? Maybe their GREAT 8 is the reason why Barrie and Ceci are in their top 4.

Great, you named two franchises where being patient paid off. I could name you a dozen times where being patient led to zero wins.

I have noticed a lot of strange "advanced stats" that seem tailor made by the dubas fan boys to boost their guy.

Winning a round >> not winning a round.

No team has ever had success with half of their cap spent on four forwards.If you can't see the negative in having zero success, then clearly there is nothing I can say that will get through to you.

 

[conFABulator]

Great, you named two franchises where being patient paid off. I could name you a dozen times where being patient led to zero wins.

I have noticed a lot of strange "advanced stats" that seem tailor made by the dubas fan boys to boost their guy.

Winning a round >> not winning a round.

No team has ever had success with half of their cap spent on four forwards.If you can't see the negative in having zero success, then clearly there is nothing I can say that will get through to you.

Can you name one team where being impatient paid off? That's the question.

Let's go back the past 10 years or so? Did anybody get impatient with the plan, blow it up and then win the cup? The answer is no.

Maybe Chicago, 13 years ago...but that was a different NHL back then...and 13 years ago.

The Avalanche were patient, so were the Lightning. The Blues too..the Capitals were epically patient. The Penguins won two but it was nine years after winning their first with Sid.

You said I named two that were patient. I think you are wrong.

Apart from bitching about this team do you have any actual ideas for what they should be doing if they are not sticking with the plan? What does impatient look like.

Also, you replying to my last post with a laughing emoji -- not a good look. At least try not to act like a troll.

 

[TheRumble]

I'd just like to point out that someone in this thread unironically stated that Marleau was preferable to Tavares and not only was he serious, he got two people to go out of their way to like it.

That's when I stopped taking this thread seriously.

 

[Uncus13]

Sure, if you are saying a playoff round victory or nothing...then you are not going to change your mind.

I subscribe to continued patience. Do you know that Sakic inherited a team that had O'Rielly, Duchene, Barrie, Varalamov, Tanguay, MacKinnon and Landeskog and they didn't win a playoff round in their first four years?

I feel as though if the Leafs had won a round you wouldn't be satisfied and would just move the goalposts on this one.

how about measuring success by the standards held leaguewide ... playoffs. The objective is to win the cup, not being the prettiest team or the most successful team in November.

.... it is to win the mug.

 

[Uncus13]

Can you name one team where being impatient paid off? That's the question.

Let's go back the past 10 years or so? Did anybody get impatient with the plan, blow it up and then win the cup? The answer is no.

Maybe Chicago, 13 years ago...but that was a different NHL back then...and 13 years ago.

The Avalanche were patient, so were the Lightning. The Blues too..the Capitals were epically patient. The Penguins won two but it was nine years after winning their first with Sid.

You said I named two that were patient. I think you are wrong.

Apart from bitching about this team do you have any actual ideas for what they should be doing if they are not sticking with the plan? What does impatient look like.

Also, you replying to my last post with a laughing emoji -- not a good look. At least try not to act like a troll.

How about patience? ..... San Jose, Ottawa, Philly, Buffalo, etc . have all committed varying degrees of patience for their teams over the past 30 years. No one wears a ring from those organizations, and they had some incredibly talented teams.
Patience is a virtue when surrounded by the talent needed to be successful. The leafs have shown over the past 6 (67) that they do not.
Facts are facts and you seem to have a penchant for making a mess out of any good and positive ideas that don't include your perception of what success really is (the idea that the leafs have been successful already has shown your bias towards facts that aren't true).

"Also, you replying to my last post with a laughing emoji -- not a good look. At least try not to act like a troll. " Stop trying to act like Freeland and attempting to control the emotions of others.

As the song says you gotta know when to hold them and know when to fold them ....
Have an amazing day all.

 

[conFABulator]

how about measuring success by the standards held leaguewide ... playoffs. The objective is to win the cup, not being the prettiest team or the most successful team in November.

.... it is to win the mug.

I agree and said exactly that. If this team does not win the cup then it has failed. 100%

However, there are like 27 teams that haven't won a cup with their current cores...posters that make it seem like we are way behind everyone else because some teams have won a round or two in the past five years... that's BS analysis I don't agree with.

I think our team has shown enough progress to stick with the plan and make moves and tweaks within that plan.

 

[conFABulator]

How about patience? ..... San Jose, Ottawa, Philly, Buffalo, etc . have all committed varying degrees of patience for their teams over the past 30 years. No one wears a ring from those organizations, and they had some incredibly talented teams.
Patience is a virtue when surrounded by the talent needed to be successful. The leafs have shown over the past 6 (67) that they do not.
Facts are facts and you seem to have a penchant for making a mess out of any good and positive ideas that don't include your perception of what success really is (the idea that the leafs have been successful already has shown your bias towards facts that aren't true).

"Also, you replying to my last post with a laughing emoji -- not a good look. At least try not to act like a troll. " Stop trying to act like Freeland and attempting to control the emotions of others.

Wow. Politicize things much?

I didn't tell that poster not to post laughing emojis and am not trying to control anything.

I posted an opinion that it is not a good look. Use words, not little happy face pictures to explain your emotions and thoughts. That's my opinion.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Wow. Politicize things much?

I didn't tell that poster not to post laughing emojis and am not trying to control anything.

I posted an opinion that it is not a good look. Use words, not little happy face pictures to explain your emotions and thoughts. That's my opinion.

It's ok not to defend everything the Leafs management do. The Leafs and their management team aren't perfect and this is a discussion forum after all. But there are some posters, like the smiling emoji guy, who post nothing but negative posts about the Leafs. This is a 115 pt team considered by any unbiased knowledgeable hockey fan as a top 5 team in the league, regardless of playoff success. Yet these obvious trolls make it sound like we're a bottom 5 team with nothing positive to say about the team.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Sure, if you are saying a playoff round victory or nothing...then you are not going to change your mind.

I subscribe to continued patience. Do you know that Sakic inherited a team that had O'Rielly, Duchene, Barrie, Varalamov, Tanguay, MacKinnon and Landeskog and they didn't win a playoff round in their first four years?

I feel as though if the Leafs had won a round you wouldn't be satisfied and would just move the goalposts on this one.

Not only do I agree with staying the course, I think it's actually the gutsiest move. Kneejerk reactions and wholesale changes are easy. Gutting things out and sticking to a plan takes nerves. Note I'm not endorsing or criticizing any of Dubas' moves, but the situation is what it is now and I truly believe sticking it out is best for the short term.

 

[conFABulator]

It's ok not to defend everything the Leafs management do. The Leafs and their management team aren't perfect and this is a discussion forum after all. But there are some posters, like the smiling emoji guy, who post nothing but negative posts about the Leafs. This is a 115 pt team considered by any unbiased knowledgeable hockey fan as a top 5 team in the league, regardless of playoff success. Yet these obvious trolls make it sound like we're a bottom 5 team with nothing positive to say about the team.

Perfectly put. This has been a far from perfect recent run as a Leaf fan.

CBJ in the bubble? We could have had that. Habs? Don't even want to talk about it. Going into this season with Murray and Samsonov? Concerned.

Lots of smart people on here have valid reasons to have concern or wavering confidence in this plan and progress.

I love those discussions. Haters that do a very poor job on masking their hate in BS analysis are what I take issue with.

Not only do I agree with staying the course, I think it's actually the gutsiest move. Kneejerk reactions and wholesale changes are easy. Gutting things out and sticking to a plan takes nerves. Note I'm not endorsing or criticizing any of Dubas' moves, but the situation is what it is now and I truly believe sticking it out is best for the short term.

Yes. Gutsy. It might not work out, but you know what never works out? Trying to follow the other guys plan. Doing what they did.

My initial reaction after we got Murray was..."well, Dubas' has guts". He could have taken way less controversial paths...Husso for example, maybe even Talbot.

He has a vision and a plan and he sticks to it...let's hope it is the right one.

 

[Dekes For Days]

how about measuring success by the standards held leaguewide ... playoffs. The objective is to win the cup, not being the prettiest team or the most successful team in November.

Regular season results (and playoff performances, outside of just surface level outcomes) are also a leaguewide measure for the quality of a team and where you're at, and they often dictate the majority of decisions. In fact, relying too much on exclusively playoff outcomes when making decisions often leads to counterproductive actions that hurt the team moving forward.

The objective is to win the cup, but only 1 team each year wins the cup. That means that for the objective of this league, there are 31 losers each year. Some people have gotten it into their head that getting to a later round automatically means you're closer to winning the cup (and who needs context!), but there's nothing to actually support that. There are actually a surprising number of 1st round losses and even playoff embarrassments that directly surround winning seasons, and a lot of teams that go far in the playoffs never end up winning anything.

Each of our last 3 playoff series outcomes could have been changed by 1 singular goal. If we had one shot or one save go a different way in those series, and we had ended up winning, are we actually closer to winning the cup next year? No, of course not.

There's no prior playoff criteria for winning. There's no secret formula. There's no necessary build style. Making bad moves just for the sake of change doesn't help anything.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Regular season results (and playoff performances, outside of just surface level outcomes) are also a leaguewide measure for the quality of a team and where you're at, and they often dictate the majority of decisions. In fact, relying too much on exclusively playoff outcomes when making decisions often leads to counterproductive actions that hurt the team moving forward.

The objective is to win the cup, but only 1 team each year wins the cup. That means that for the objective of this league, there are 31 losers each year. Some people have gotten it into their head that getting to a later round automatically means you're closer to winning the cup (and who needs context!), but there's nothing to actually support that. There are actually a surprising number of 1st round losses and even playoff embarrassments that directly surround winning seasons, and a lot of teams that go far in the playoffs never end up winning anything.

Each of our last 3 playoff series outcomes could have been changed by 1 singular goal. If we had one shot or one save go a different way in those series, and we had ended up winning, are we actually closer to winning the cup next year? No, of course not.

There's no prior playoff criteria for winning. There's no secret formula. There's no necessary build style. Making bad moves just for the sake of change doesn't help anything.

Absolutely correct. For some people, that one goal changes the narrative from having a good team to one that is constantly floundering. But that shouldn't be the deciding factor on whether the team is on the right track. I honestly believe that if Kerfoot doesn't take that penalty on Hedman in Game 6, or Matthews' tip in overtime goes in, or if Kerfoot scores on that breakaway in overtime, that the Leafs would have gone on a long playoff run. Would that have satisfied people into thinking the Leafs had a successful season, or would they continue their anti-Leaf rants? It really shouldn't.

 

[tmlms13]

Rank the Leafs 3rd to drive clicks and new subscription.

That's what they do. It's just like someone else who's name is forbidden here.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Rank the Leafs 3rd to drive clicks and new subscription.

That's what they do. It's just like someone else who's name is forbidden here.

Yeah it has to be a conspiracy, because there's no way a 115 point team has an efficient salary structure

 

[Racer88]

Not only do I agree with staying the course, I think it's actually the gutsiest move. Kneejerk reactions and wholesale changes are easy. Gutting things out and sticking to a plan takes nerves. Note I'm not endorsing or criticizing any of Dubas' moves, but the situation is what it is now and I truly believe sticking it out is best for the short term.

How long are you prepared to stick it out. It’s 6 years and counting. How long before maybe it’s time to not blow it up but maybe change 1 or two of the expensive 4