ATD 2022 DRAFT THREAD I

[tinyzombies]

Man I just feel he is so underrated in this game.

 

[VanIslander]

Indeed.

Potvin goes 10th to applause and Lafleur overshadowed him back then. I was there. Of course, the bigger star could be less valuable. But whatever gap you think between Potvin and Lafleur, Lafleur and Potvin, should be smaller than their draft positions.

 

[tinyzombies]

Indeed.

Potvin goes 10th to applause and Lafleur overshadowed him back then. I was there. Of course, the bigger star could be less valuable. But whatever gap you think between Potvin and Lafleur, Lafleur and Potvin, should be smaller than their draft positions.

I don't see what a Bobby Hull has on Lafleur. Hull wasn't nearly as creative. And Lafleur had a rocket with those crappy old sticks.

 

[VanIslander]

I don't see what a Bobby Hull has on Lafleur. Lafleur could make a play too, Hull wasn't nearly as creative. And Lafleur had a rocket with those crappy old sticks.

Potvin vs. Lafleur, Lafleur vs. Hull, Hull vs. Mikita.

A decade plus ago the order was set hereabouts: Hull, Potvin, Mikita, Lafleur.

It has been followed religiously.

Maybe it should be reversed.

 

[Dreakmur]

Potvin vs. Lafleur, Lafleur vs. Hull, Hull vs. Mikita.

A decade plus ago the order was set hereabouts: Hull, Potvin, Mikita, Lafleur.

It has been followed religiously.

Maybe it should be reversed.

Maybe you should make an argument. If it’s good, people will listen.

 

[VanIslander]

If i was born yesterday, it would be interesting.

Changing the mind of someone who scoffs at MARGINAL top-10 standing for Lafleur is between take out the trash and recycle the bottle caps. I'll get to it.

 

[tinyzombies]

That he was able to put up good numbers post dynasty after he lost his C and RD and through an incredible stream of injuries over several years (including being kneed by Potvin, who got away with murder back then) says a lot. He got off to a slow start pre dynasty which hurts him. Xxx had him on a leash. As foe Potvin, it's like the Beliveau-Harvey comparisons. Jean was clearly considered the better player and put together another dynasty with a lesser cast. Lafleur didn't have that opportunity and unfortunately was injured late in the year even before the 1980 playoffs. The post dynasty limping Habs and Islanders were pretty even at that point, but injuries to Guy and important dmen prevented the showdown. There is a late season tie on YouTube that shows what might have been.

The chainsmoking and disco years partying didn't help lol. The guy was a superstar though and I just feel he goes too late. Eye test out. Were some of the guys ahead of him really superstars? I dunno..

I wish there was a way to factor in the penalties that SHOULD have been called, and the offense that was lost as a result. Everyone demerits him because of era, but he could have had way more points too. Just like the 1961 Chicago Cup win- the league basically gave them that Cup by letting them cheat. Same for the Flyers. The Islanders were a dirty team also by my recollection. None of that would fly today.

 

[The Macho King]

So I don't want VI's "enthusiastic" puffing of Lafleur to reflect negatively on me. I will say I think he is the best forward taken in the round. His six year peak is up there with any non Big-4 skater, and obviously he brought it in the playoffs as the star of arguably the greatest dynasty in hockey history.

I feel like I got excellent value. I did not expect him to be there and was initially trying to trade down, thinking the guys in the next grouping are all rather interchangeable and I could just build around whoever dropped to me and pick up value later in the draft, but I do think Lafleur is a clear cut above the other forwards available in this range.

 

[VanIslander]

While Jagr & Lafleur went now (post top-20), The Macho King thinks all's as it should be. K. The 29th all time is on the clock.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I've been trying to convince myself to pick somebody else, but I can't. I'll select my team's captain, Bobby Clarke.

Excellent!

I was hoping you would go there.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Haven't talked to Sturm yet and he's offline for the moment. In the meanwhile if anyone wants to discuss the possibility of a trade I'll listen so we know what our options are.

 

[The Macho King]

While Jagr & Lafleur went now, The Macho King thinks all's as it should be.

K.

I don't see an argument for Jagr over Lafleur, so I'll gladly take him.

I swear I don't understand the post though.

 

[VanIslander]

You did a lot of work to distance yourself from my Lafleur pimping, then turn around and flick Jagr away?

Look at the nuts and bolts of the positions, not just who you like that's talking. Geez.

 

[The Macho King]

You did a lot of work to distance yourself ftom my Lafleur pimping, then turn around and flick Jagr away?

Look at the nuts and bolts of the positions, not just who you like that's talking. Geez.

I don't think Lafleur has a real argument for top 10 of all time - that was the puffing I was talking about. I don't know about you, but when I see ... overenthusiastic selling of a player, I tend to reflexively go the other way. I disagree with the extent of your praise of Lafleur, so I just don't want that reflex to work against me.

Wasn't meant to be personal at all.

And I think my issues with Jagr are fairly well documented by now. No signature playoff runs and a lot of empty calorie scoring. Clearly he belongs in this range, but I don't think there is an argument for him as better than Lafleur without just looking at scoring finishes.

Let me put it this way - Jagr, despite his dominance of the scoring race in the late 90s, walked away with one Hart trophy. And for the most part no one questions those results.

 

[tinyzombies]

I could see Lafleur as a better player or at least just as good as any of these guys. Guy was the center of that dynasty, not Robinson. Bourque and Potvin have the longevity and positional value in ATD, Rocket fought through the adversity when it mattered- literally having to fight his way on the ice with no help from the league.. but otherwise I don't have a problem with Lafleur going ahead of anyone on that list. Hasek was a similar peak type player, Roy was very pedestrian many years but his playoff record on defensive teams lifts him. Still I have no problem seeing Lafleur taken first. And nobody back then is taking Potvin over Lafleur.

Massive steal at 28.

7. Voight - Texarkana Bandits - Raymond Bourque, D
8. BenchBrawl & Sturminator - Montreal Canadiens - Bobby Hull, LW
9. The Macho King - Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs - Nicklas Lidstrom, D
10. ImporterExporter - Three Rivers Hockey Club - Denis Potvin, D
11. tony d - Pittsburgh Pirates - Maurice Richard, RW
12. Dreakmur - Orillia Terriers - Eddie Shore, D
14. tabness - Bloomfield Hills Dollar Bills - Howie Morenz, C (traded to VanIslander)
15. VanIslander - Milwaukee Admirals - Red Kelly, D/C
16. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Slava Fetisov, D
17. Claude The Fraud - Hull Olympiques - Larry Robinson, D
18. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Mark Messier, C/LW

Round 2:

19. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Dominik Hasek, G
20. Claude The Fraud - Hull Olympiques - Patrick Roy, G
21. ImporterExporter - Three Rivers Hockey Club - Alexander Ovechkin, LW/RW
22. tabness - Bloomfield Hills Dollar Bills - Paul Coffey, D
23. tabness - Bloomfield Hills Dollar Bills - Chris Chelios, D
24. nabby12 - Winnipeg Victorias - Jaromir Jagr, RW
25. Dreakmur - Orillia Terriers - Bobby Clarke, C
26. tony d - Pittsburgh Pirates - Stan Mikita, C
27. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Frank Nighbor, C



28. The Macho King - Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs - Guy Lafleur, RW

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Thank you.

My friggin' pick Morenz accepted the Hart trophy by saying WE ALL KNOW WHO DESERVES THIS, indicating Nighbor. He should be a top-15 player.

When was that?

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'm asking for the sake of the entire group, the people watching/following along. Can we PLEASE just discuss picks without seemingly needling people in the process?

If we all held robotic views on this fine sport, the entire point of the draft would be moot. The greatest aspect to this should be the discussion and learning experience for everyone involved especially newer folks who are just starting out or watching and thinking about joining in the future.

My take on Lafleur? He goes too low based on the position he plays and all around ability as an offensive winger. He was a superstar. There are more than enough game video's out there and testimonials and peak to come to that conclusion, even if you weren't alive or old enough to have seen him in the 70's. He was a fantastic pick now for MM.

With that being said, he simply does not have the longevity to be a top 10 player ever. After age 28 he hit 80 points in a season once despite entering the highest scoring era in league history. Yes, there was the car crash, the smoking, the disco/coke lifestyle I'm sure given the era. But that does matter. It has to factor into the equation. His superstardom really is confined to a 6 year window, historically speaking. That coincided with one of the best assembled teams in hockey history. Nobody can win title after title without help. That doesn't diminish what Lafleur was or what he meant to those teams specifically but to break into the top 10, you need to have both sustained star power and the longevity/consistency.

Premium Dmen are always going to go above RW's for the most part in this exercise based on supply and demand. RW is simply a deeper position than D and historically speaking D are arguably the most critical position on championship winning teams.

Just my .02

 

[tinyzombies]

I'm asking for the sake of the entire group, the people watching/following along. Can we PLEASE just discuss picks without seemingly needling people in the process?

If we all held robotic views on this fine sport, the entire point of the draft would be moot. The greatest aspect to this should be the discussion and learning experience for everyone involved especially newer folks who are just starting out or watching and thinking about joining in the future.

My take on Lafleur? He goes too low based on the position he plays and all around ability as an offensive winger. He was a superstar. There are more than enough game video's out there and testimonials and peak to come to that conclusion, even if you weren't alive or old enough to have seen him in the 70's. He was a fantastic pick now for MM.

With that being said, he simply does not have the longevity to be a top 10 player ever. After age 28 he hit 80 points in a season once despite entering the highest scoring era in league history. Yes, there was the car crash, the smoking, the disco/coke lifestyle I'm sure given the era. But that does matter. It has to factor into the equation. His superstardom really is confined to a 6 year window, historically speaking. That coincided with one of the best assembled teams in hockey history. Nobody can win title after title without help. That doesn't diminish what Lafleur was or what he meant to those teams specifically but to break into the top 10, you need to have both sustained star power and the longevity/consistency.

Premium Dmen are always going to go above RW's for the most part in this exercise based on supply and demand. RW is simply a deeper position than D and historically speaking D are arguably the most critical position on championship winning teams.

Just my .02

More critical to championships are superstars who deliver when it counts, whatever the position is. Defense is only one aspect- winning styles seem to rotate in and out of favor. It's not easy to score in the playoffs and Lafleur basically scored against gangs that belonged in jail - year after year. lol. Beliveau had a second dynasty surrounded by defensive guys, nothing flashy. Lafleur probably could have done the same as he was the one providing the offense.

Anyway, I understand this is all eye test and I'm not contributing anything- sorry!

 

[ImporterExporter]

More critical to championships are superstars who deliver when it counts, whatever the position is. Defense is only one aspect of the game. It's not easy to score in the playoffs and Lafleur basically scored against gangs that belonged in jail - year after year. lol. Beliveau had a second dynasty surrounded by defensive guys, nothing flashy. Lafleur probably could have done the same as he was the one providing the offense.

Anyway, I understand this is all eye test and I'm not contributing anything- sorry!

You are contributing plenty my friend. No need to apologize at all.

My comment regarding Dmen is more about looking back at the title winnings teams throughout history and seeing there is less variance in quality D vs quality wingers on the team that wins the Cup. Even those 70's dynasty Habs were insanely better on the blueline compared to any other team out there. Robinson and company. Peak and depth. Even during the post lockout/cap era you see most SC winners have a true #1 on their roster (relative to league size).

 

[The Macho King]

You are contributing plenty my friend. No need to apologize at all.

My comment regarding Dmen is more about looking back at the title winnings teams throughout history and seeing there is less variance in quality D vs quality wingers on the team that wins the Cup. Even those 70's dynasty Habs were insanely better on the blueline compared to any other team out there. Robinson and company. Peak and depth. Even during the post lockout/cap era you see most SC winners have a true #1 on their roster (relative to league size).

I think the ability to drive play from the wing is a very rare talent, at least at the level that you end up winning Cups and being on dynasties. There are maybe two active players that pulled it off. The 70s Habs are the most recent dynasty that did it. Obviously Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe, and Rocket Richard were able to do it too.

So there's a bit of... yeah most successful teams don't have that player. But I would contend it isn't because such a player isn't valuable, but rather they're much more rare.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

If I hadn't built my 2019 team around Lafleur (which was a similar sized draft at 20 teams) it would've been a very tough decision for me between him and Nighbor, but it ended up being easy because I didn't want to end up building the same type of team.

 

[tinyzombies]

I think the ability to drive play from the wing is a very rare talent, at least at the level that you end up winning Cups and being on dynasties. There are maybe two active players that pulled it off. The 70s Habs are the most recent dynasty that did it. Obviously Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe, and Rocket Richard were able to do it too.

So there's a bit of... yeah most successful teams don't have that player. But I would contend it isn't because such a player isn't valuable, but rather they're much more rare.

Speed, change of speed, accelaration, change of direction, one-on-one, creativity and passing at top speed, release, accuracy, scoring from distance. None of the players mentioned above could do all those things.

 

[Dreakmur]

Speed, change of speed, accelaration, change of direction, one-on-one, creativity and passing at top speed, release, accuracy, scoring from distance. None of the players mentioned above could do all those things.

At the end of the day, I only care about the result. All those things added up to allow him to produce the way he did. They don’t get added on.

 

[tinyzombies]

At the end of the day, I only care about the result. All those things added up to allow him to produce the way he did. They don’t get added on.

Centerpiece of a dynasty, best player in the world foe half a decade?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Centerpiece of a dynasty, best player in the world foe half a decade?

I think these are exactly the type of results he's talking about