ATD 2022 DRAFT THREAD I

[Dreakmur]

Centerpiece of a dynasty, best player in the world foe half a decade?

That’s what he accomplished (arguably).

 

[tinyzombies]

I think these are exactly the type of results he's talking about

Last post because I'm boring myself, but if you give Lafleur Messier as a 2C and Coffey and have the Habs play run and gun instead of counterattack/puck pressure.. suddenly 119, 125, 125, 129, 132, 136 becomes 139, 145, 145, 152, 156 maybe? And Lafleur wasn't the type of guy to run it up they say. My first game ever live they won 13-0 or something vs the Penguins. He scored the first goal and disappeared the rest of the game. Suddenly, he's a lot closer to Gretzky territory. I'm not saying he was at that level, but he would be closer.

 

[tinyzombies]

That’s what he accomplished (arguably).

There's a debate about that?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Last post because I'm boring myself, but if you give Lafleur Messier as a 2C and Coffey and have the Habs play run and gun instead of counterattack/puck pressure.. suddenly 119, 125, 125, 129, 132, 136 becomes 139, 145, 145, 152, 156 maybe? And Lafleur wasn't the type of guy to run it up they say. My first game ever live they won 13-0 or something vs the Penguins. He scored the first goal and disappeared the rest of the game. Suddenly, he's a lot closer to Gretzky territory. I'm not saying he was at that level, but he would be closer.

I agree that things like team playing style and how much a player outscored his teammates/was relied on for offense should be factored into "results," but these are not what you brought up in your original comment that started all of this, you only mentioned individual skills:

"Speed, change of speed, accelaration, change of direction, one-on-one, creativity and passing at top speed, release, accuracy, scoring from distance. None of the players mentioned above could do all those things."

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

@tinyzombies To follow up, individual skills certainly could factor in to the team-building aspect of the ATD, but IMO are not a factor when trying to determine who was the "better" player.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Lafleur had no nerve. Even when you hear him in interviews, look at his body language, at his soul. This is a man who doesn't have a nerve in his body. I'm sure that plays a part in his ability to be a constant money player.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Lafleur had no nerve. Even when you hear him in interviews, look at his body language, at his soul. This is a man who doesn't have a nerve in his body. I'm sure that plays a part in his ability to be a constant money player.

Yep, it's reflected in the results

 

[tinyzombies]

I just traded up. With the 29th pick overall, the Montreal Wanderers select, from Toronto, Canada:

Brad Park

9x NHL All Star Game Participant
5x Top 9 Hart Trophy Voting(5, 5, 5, 8, 9), also received one vote in 82, 83, 84
10x Top 9 Norris Trophy Voting(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 8, 8, 9)
13x Top 15 AS Voting among Defensemen(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 6, 8, 12, 13, 15
3x Top 10 NHL in Assists(7, 10, 10)
9th in NHL in Points, 73-74
9x Top 12 Goals among Defensemen(2, 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 10, 10, 12)
11x Top 7 Assists among Defensemen(2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7)
11x Top 10 Points among Defensemen(2, 2, 2, 3*, 6**, 6, 6, 6, 7, 8, 10)
2nd in Goals in Playoffs, 77-78
5x Top 9 Assists in Playoffs(2, 5, 7, 8, 9)
2x Top 7 Points in Playoffs(3, 7)
10x Top 12 Points among Playoff Defensemen(2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12)

*one less point of 2nd place in 24 less games, 2nd best offensive defenseman that year
**2nd in PPG, 1.05 to .92 of 2nd place xxx

Brad Park was a highly efficient defender, combining size and clean but dogged tenacity with an uncanny awareness of the game. A noted hip-checker, Park was brash and unintimidated. But with the puck he became a natural chessmaster on the ice. more-than-likely make a perfect pinpoint pass to clear the puck out of the zone and start the attack. With a short burst of speed he would often jump to join the rush as a fourth attacker, and was a true power play quarterback. Park, not unlike Ray Bourque years later, was a consistently steady defender with often brilliant offensive instincts.

In almost any other time period Brad Park would have been considered the best defenseman of his time. But Park played in the enormous shadows of Bobby Orr in Boston and Denis Potvin on Long Island. The only thing that kept the spotlight on them as opposed to Park was their team success and a combined 6 Stanley Cup championships to Park's zero.

That's right, Brad Park never had the chance to sip champagne from the Stanley Cup, despite participating in the playoffs each of his 17 NHL seasons. Along with the likes of xxx, xxx, and xxx, Park may be the best player ever not to have tasted Stanley Cup victory.

Park went from unbridled prodigy to popular sensation in New York, ranking him as perhaps the greatest defenseman in the long history of the Blueshirts.

"Park reminds me of xxx," once said Chicago coach xxx. "Both were relatively compact men who could accelerate better than most forwards."​

 

[Sturminator]

I just traded up. With the 29th pick overall, the Montreal Wanderers select, from Toronto, Canada:

​

Brad Park

My favorite player to watch...was tough trading out of the spot knowing I'd miss out on drafting him, but it was not to be this year. I don't see much real difference between Park and Chelios in terms of value. Fine pick.

 

[Voight]

Welcome to Texarkana, LW #7 "Terrible" Ted Lindsay.

 

[tinyzombies]

My favorite player to watch...was tough trading out of the spot knowing I'd miss out on drafting him, but it was not to be this year. I don't see much real difference between Park and Chelios in terms of value. Fine pick.

Hull and Ovie in my division scared me into it.

 

[The Macho King]

My favorite player to watch...was tough trading out of the spot knowing I'd miss out on drafting him, but it was not to be this year. I don't see much real difference between Park and Chelios in terms of value. Fine pick.

While Chelios' Norris trophy years obviously weren't against a force of nature like Orr, he did have some pretty insane competition (including drafted players like Bourque and Coffey and some very notable undrafteds) that he came out on top with. And until Detroit he was on generally good but not great teams.

Not getting totally into the qualitative "this guy over that guy" between these two because I think they bring different elements which are each defensible, but if one were so inclined there is a pretty easy argument for Chelios there.

 

[The Macho King]

Welcome to Texarkana, LW #7 "Terrible" Ted Lindsay.

Love me a union man. Renaming the Pearson after him was the best thing the NHL did since they got rid of the two-line pass.

 

[Dreakmur]

There's a debate about that?

What years was he the clear cut best player in the world? He wasn’t in 1975 or 1976. He wasn’t anymore by 1979. What’s the half decade?

 

[Professor What]

Wow, Lindsay went close to where I took him last year. Stock rising a bit?

 

[tinyzombies]

What years was he the clear cut best player in the world? He wasn’t in 1975 or 1976. He wasn’t anymore by 1979. What’s the half decade?

Clarke belonged in jail, Lafleur played hockey. Hockey. That's the name of the game, right? And I remember 1979 well, 129 points and maybe the second most iconic goal ever scored in the NHL to save the entire dynasty? Helloooooo (valley girl)

 

[The Macho King]

What years was he the clear cut best player in the world? He wasn’t in 1975 or 1976. He wasn’t anymore by 1979. What’s the half decade?

I think if you factor in the regular season and postseason, you can easily make the argument that he was the best player of the late 70s. And when you factor in how much Lafleur was outscoring his linemates (when compared to, for instance, Clarke) - I think that paints Lafleur in a very positive light.

Clarke's 76 Hart he has 119 points to UNDRAFTED's 112 and OTHER UNDRAFTED's 91 (with 61 goals). Meanwhile, Lafleur outscored the closest Hab by 20, and the next closest by 46. Guy was doing a lot more driving of the Habs offense than Clarke was.

Obviously you balance that out with Clarke's defense, but Lafleur at least has an argument for 76 and 79 - the only guy other than maybe Potvin who can say the same for that entire stretch. (For my money, I'd put Potvin as the best player of the late 70s, but Lafleur as the best forward).

 

[tinyzombies]

I think if you factor in the regular season and postseason, you can easily make the argument that he was the best player of the late 70s. And when you factor in how much Lafleur was outscoring his linemates (when compared to, for instance, Clarke) - I think that paints Lafleur in a very positive light.

Clarke's 76 Hart he has 119 points to UNDRAFTED's 112 and OTHER UNDRAFTED's 91 (with 61 goals). Meanwhile, Lafleur outscored the closest Hab by 20, and the next closest by 46. Guy was doing a lot more driving of the Habs offense than Clarke was.

Obviously you balance that out with Clarke's defense, but Lafleur at least has an argument for 76 and 79 - the only guy other than maybe Potvin who can say the same for that entire stretch. (For my money, I'd put Potvin as the best player of the late 70s, but Lafleur as the best forward).

Yes, but the Islanders didn't get it done. They knocked on the door, like the Bruins and Flyers in 76, but Lafleur beat them. And what's up with that total Islander collapse in 1979? Nobody then or now is saying the Islander dynasty was better or Potvin was better than Lafleur. That's a small minority maaan. And that brand of hockey didn't age well either. Lafleur could step in and play today, Potvin not so much- have to get rid of all the slashing and spearing and highsticking and all the other crap he got away with back then.

 

[The Macho King]

Yes, but the Islanders didn't get it done. They knocked on the door, like the Bruins and Flyers in 76, but Lafleur beat them.

I mean... the Islanders obviously eventually did get it done.

But yeah - leading your team in scoring every postseason on the way to four straight Cups is quite the exclamation point on the regular season performance. But let's not pretend that the Habs weren't obscenely stacked versus the Islanders back then.

 

[Sturminator]

Wow, Lindsay went close to where I took him last year. Stock rising a bit?

He deserves it.

Just finished a deep dive on Lindsay's career. His playoff statistics are extremely close to Gordie's if we throw out the injured seasons (49-50 and 50-51) for both skaters. I know Ted's VsX totals are somewhat deceiving because he spent most of his prime with Gordie, but he won a scoring title, and that unadjusted number is lofty.

 

[The Macho King]

He deserves it.

Just finished a deep dive on Lindsay's career. His playoff statistics are extremely close to Gordie's if we throw out the injured seasons (49-50 and 50-51) for both skaters. I know Ted's VsX totals are somewhat deceiving because he spent most of his prime with Gordie, but he won a scoring title, and that unadjusted number is lofty.

Also if you want to build your forward corps from the wings in (which makes sense due to relative depth).

I don't think he's the 30th best player of all time, so maybe it's a reach in that sense, but it's certainly defensible from a team building perspective here.

 

[tinyzombies]

Also if you want to build your forward corps from the wings in (which makes sense due to relative depth), there are really only two other decent options for this pick range, and Ted brings a little bit extra to the table.

I don't think he's the 30th best player of all time, so maybe it's a reach in that sense, but it's certainly defensible from a team building perspective here.

Another guy the league let get away with murder. But I badly wanted him...

Half of that Rocket autobiography Fischler did is Rocket grumbling about Lindsay lol.

I was surprised at his skating when I looked at old Youtube videos. Acceleration was off the charts.

 

[Professor What]

I have no regrets of taking him where I did last year. I had a plan, and even if my team went out first round, I feel that part of my build was quite successful (the Lindsay-Francis-Richard line). To me, I think he's pretty clearly the #3 left wing of all time, certainly no lower than #4, and I think he's got good balance (goal scoring, playmaking, defensive responsibility, toughness).

 

[tinyzombies]

Good chance I would have taken Lindsay at 32.

To be honest, I thought he's who TZ was trading up for

I was half asleep when I made the trade, I thought I was being clever and would get both. SHould have taken him. Oh well, Gordie Howe covers up lots of mistakes - i hope

 

[Dreakmur]

Obviously you balance that out with Clarke's defense, but Lafleur at least has an argument for 76 and 79 - the only guy other than maybe Potvin who can say the same for that entire stretch. (For my money, I'd put Potvin as the best player of the late 70s, but Lafleur as the best forward).

Sounds like you agree with me...