Arrest over Johnson death / released within 24 hours, investigation remains open

[Bojack Horvatman]

Richard Zednik got cut in a similar way only it was his teammate. The teammate was falling over with one foot planted and the other leg came up. I believe these were involuntary muscle reflexes to keep the body balanced. The body has these involuntary reflexes to either protect the muscles or the entire body.

 

[saska sault]

So you’re saying if im working with some dude and he falls and kills himslef, arresting me is just a normal part of the investigation? That doesn’t seem right unless there’s a good reason to do so.

If you are working in a butcher shop and you accidentally fall and kill your co worker on the way down, they will likely ask you some question and have an investigation yes. If he fell on the other side of the room and didn't touch you, probably not.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I haven't watched the clip as I don't have the stomach for it, but knowing what I do about British law enforcement, they would not have brought charges in this situation unless the evidence left them no other choice.

 

[Panteras]

If you are working in a butcher shop and you accidentally fall and kill your co worker on the way down, they will likely ask you some question and have an investigation yes. If he fell on the other side of the room and didn't touch you, probably not.

Well yeah but calling me in for questioning is not the same as being arrested…

 

[JadedLeaf]

yikes, I don't like this 1 bit. I do feel he did intentionally throw the leg but no way he intended for that result. I am more on the side of no criminal charges but a good long suspension

If he intentionally threw the kick how can you justify NOT charging him with manslaughter?

 

[Frank Drebin]

If he intentionally threw the kick how can you justify NOT charging him with manslaughter?

Exactly. Its like getting behind the wheel when you've been drinking. Sure you didn't mean to go out and kill someone but you did.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

If he intentionally threw the kick how can you justify NOT charging him with manslaughter?

How about we ask this differently - you good with assault charges for every headshot that happens in the NHL, no matter how circumstantial?

 

[PB37]

How about we ask this differently - you good with assault charges for every headshot that happens in the NHL, no matter how circumstantial?

If it kills someone, yes.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

If it kills someone, yes.

Crimes are crimes, bud.

 

[Jets4Life]

The kick was clearly intentional. Petgrave positions his body in such an angle that his foot was planted in order to raise his leg to try and stop Johnson from heading towards the net. So it was clearly intentional. Obviously he never intented to kill Johnson, and probably feels horrible. However, comparing it to other plays (Zhitnak, Malarchuk, etc) is disingenuous at best. Those were legitimate accidents, where players fell and lost control. Petgrave was in full control of his body when he kicked his blade towards Johnson.

Having said that, I don't believe anything will be gained by sending Petgrave to prison. Additionally, no jury in the World will convict him, considering people are still arguing on this forum whether it was intentional or not.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

How about we ask this differently - you good with assault charges for every headshot that happens in the NHL, no matter how circumstantial?

Assault requires intent. Todd Bertuzzi was charged with assault causing bodily harm.

Hockey players can be charged with assault if their actions go beyond the bounds of the game and intentionally cause harm to another player. Criminal charges stemming from on-ice behavior are rare, and players consent to a certain level of violence when they lace up their skates, whether it’s absorbing a hard bodycheck or in some cases, dropping the gloves and exchanging bare-knuckle punches. However, there are times when the level of violence exceeds what has been deemed acceptable and the long arm of the law occasionally extends onto ice level.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Assault requires intent. Todd Bertuzzi was charged with assault causing bodily harm.

We've spent literally this entire thread talking about how intent is not the determining factor.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

We've spent literally this entire thread talking about how intent is not the determining factor.

I'm talking about your example, bud. Not the incident.

 

[Pass the Saitl Sauce]

Different country so hard for me to speak in absolutes. Seems pretty insane to get arrested for a freak accident.

Manslaughter is usually a freak accident caused by reckless behaviour, kicking his leg up to impede Johnson was a reckless act causing death without intent, it’s manslaughter.

 

[PB37]

Crimes are crimes, bud.

Killing someone because of your reckless actions is otherwise known as manslaughter. Most head shots in hockey are not criminal in nature. It's the line between hockey violence and a criminal act that usually doesn't get crossed. There's enough in this one to suggest that it could have.

 

[AKL]

I'm not going to read this entire thread, but I read OP's article and it made no mention of who was arrested or the player whose skate it was. Then I read a couple more articles, and both explicitly mention Petgrave as the player whose skate contacted Johnson's neck, but also explicitly state

The man, whose identity was not released by the police, remains in custody.

Arrest made in skate blade death of Johnson

A man was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter in the death of ex-NHL player Adam Johnson, whose throat was cut by a skate blade during a game.

www.espn.com

As per UK law, the suspect's name will not be made public until charged with a crime.

Police Arrest Man on Suspicion of Manslaughter in Skate Death of Hockey Player Adam Johnson

A man has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter over the skate death of hockey player Adam Johnson

people.com

Is this just a weird quirk?

 

[Yukon Joe]

OK, so I'm a Canadian lawyer - though obviously that means I'm qualified in Canada (Alberta) and not the UK. At this sort of level Canadian criminal law is very similar to UK criminal law (we inherited the same law).

So the grounds to arrest are that police must have "reasonable and probable grounds" to believe an offence was committed. So if UK police are arresting the person responsible (curious the OP's article doesn't mention the name, although it's even listed on Johnson's Wiki page) they have more than just a suspicion that a crime was committed.

So the allegation is manslaughter. In order for the Crown to prove manslaughter, the Crown has to prove that the Accused person intended to commit the act - that is the Accused intended to kick or strike Johnson with his skate. If it was a pure accident then no charge is warranted.

But what the Crown doesn't need to prove is an intent to kill. If there is an intent to kill that is murder, not manslaughter. It sadly happens way more often than you think - someone punches another person in the face, they fall down, hit their head, get a brain bleed (or whatever) and die. That's manslaughter.

There is definitely no exception or exclusion to things that happen on ice during a hockey game. There are certainly examples of charges being laid in the past for on-ice incidents - the Todd Bertuzzi - Steve Moore example is perhaps the most famous, but certainly not the only one.

That being said you have to remember the burden of proof. That is - the Crown must prove the offence beyond a reasonable doubt. In this case the sequence is captured on video, so the facts themselves are not in question. In law, we call that the actus reus. The question for any judge however is one of mens rea - what was the Accused's intent or mindset? Did he have a "guilty mind"?

I haven't seen the video. Quite frankly, I don't want to see the video. I've seen enough shitty things in my job I don't need to seek out more. But that's going to be the question - did the Accused intend to kick Johnson with his skate? And in particular - can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to kick Johnson with his skate?

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I'm talking about your example, bud. Not the incident.

And would you like to look up a few laws regarding grievous bodily harm for the class

Maybe something called "Section 20"

R v Mowatt [1967] EWCA Crim 1 (20 June 1967)

Killing someone because of your reckless actions is otherwise known as manslaughter. Most head shots in hockey are not criminal in nature. It's the line between hockey violence and a criminal act that usually doesn't get crossed. There's enough in this one to suggest that it could have.

So your argument is "it's not because I say it's not"

Alright

 

[Yukon Joe]

Exactly. Its like getting behind the wheel when you've been drinking. Sure you didn't mean to go out and kill someone but you did.

Please, no offence intended, but that's a bad example.

Because of the problems that drunk drivers cause on the highways, in law we created an entirely different crime - impaired driving causing death (section 320.15(3) of the Canadian Criminal Code, though almost all jurisdictions have something similar).

But in impaired driving causing death, the mens rea, that is the intent, is just that you went driving while you were drunk, and that as a result you caused someone's death. Theoretically, you can be driving perfectly, and get into a perfectly understandable accident (I dunno, you hit some black ice or something), but if you caused the death of someone you're guilty of impaired driving causing death merely because you were driving while drunk.

In this case, the Crown must prove that the Accused intended to kick Johnson.

 

[Northerner]

Is there a reason England authorities aren't naming Petgrave as the arrested?

 

[JadedLeaf]

How about we ask this differently - you good with assault charges for every headshot that happens in the NHL, no matter how circumstantial?

Throwing a hit is a hockey play. You accept that you're going to be hit,, it's part of the game. Getting kicked in the throat is not and never had been. And yes, if it could be proven a player targeted a players head and the result was a player getting killed then yes, assault at the very least. And no, i'm not talking about a missed check or bad timing, I'm talking about intent to hit the head resulting in death.

The one thing I've learned is that no matter what happens on the ice during a game, there's always going to be that small group of people performing mental gymnastics to justify it.

 

[PB37]

And would you like to look up a few laws regarding grievous bodily harm for the class

Maybe something called "Section 20"

R v Mowatt [1967] EWCA Crim 1 (20 June 1967)

So your argument is "it's not because I say it's not"

Alright

I think you're made yourself willfully confused.

 

[Crosby2010]

I don't know what to make of this. I really don't like that kick look on the play. No way does he try to slice his neck, we know this, but why is his leg up that high? I can see the knee on knee thing as a reactionary thing and not deliberate. But how can you be careless like that with your skates? I've just never seen a play like that before.

I am not sure if he needs to be arrested for this or not of course, I am just talking out loud here.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Throwing a hit is a hockey play. You accept that you're going to be hit,, it's part of the game. Getting kicked in the throat is not and never had been.

This makes absolutely no sense when we suspend players for headshots

I think you're made yourself willfully confused.

Feel free to tell us all what this very arbitrary "criminal in nature" determination means, then.

 

[Hawkster]

Is there a reason England authorities aren't naming Petgrave as the arrested?

Privacy law.

https://archive.ph/7TiNK

From a news story, yesterday - 'The driver of the Nissan, a man aged in his 60s, was arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving and for drug driving.'

That's how arrests are reported due to the ruling in that link. The person can come out and name themselves if they wish (a member of parliament did this last week). Otherwise, it's no name until charged.