Arrest over Johnson death / released within 24 hours, investigation remains open

[AndreRoy]

Playing a contact sport = consent to contact (that would be illegal on a sidewalk)

better example IMO would be .. "If youre driving recklessly in a bumper car race ...."

'Reckless" would be based on a reasonable person under the circumstances. "Reasonable person" = average player, "circumstances" = written and unwritten rules of sport but generally accepted acts

The “generally accepted acts” part is where injury/death inflicted during a sporting event can cross the line from tragic accident to criminal action.

For instance, McSorley’s attack of Brashear was clearly in no way a generally accepted act in the sport of hockey, and so crossed the line into the realm of criminal assault. Hitting somebody into the boards, on the other hand, is a legitimate part of the sport, and so even if a player was to injure another by boarding him in such a way as to commit a penalty under the rules of hockey, it would be difficult to stretch that into a criminal violation unless it was truly egregious - I’m talking so long after play was stopped that no reasonable person could think the puck was still live. (Fighting would make for an interesting case study: it’s against the rules and in any other [non-combat] sport would be a clear case of assault, but it is a widely accepted part of hockey. Not sure how that would turn out in court.)

When it comes to the incident at hand, I think everyone can agree that intentionally kicking a player with one’s skate is clearly not an accepted act in hockey. On the other hand accidentally cutting someone with a skate has been known to happen in the sport. So even though intent isn’t required to convict somebody of manslaughter, I think it would need to be proven in this case in order for Petgrave’s actions to be deemed reckless and beyond the realm of accepted sporting activity. Just as an accidental high stick would not lead to assault charges while McSorley’s attack rightfully did.

So the question then is did Petgrave intentionally kick Johnson? If he did then he is guilty of manslaughter, even without intent to kill, because to intentionally kick somebody with a bladed foot is both grossly reckless and not a reasonable action to take in the sport of hockey.

The problem, however, would be proving this beyond a reasonable doubt. The publicly available footage is grainy enough that proving Petgrave didn’t have his skate clipped may be impossible, and that is sufficient to induce reasonable doubt in a juror’s mind. Even though I personally think he did it on purpose, I couldn’t vote to convict based on what I’ve seen.

 

[tshack]

So if the guy says it was an accident and it was just a natural reaction to falling down, how do you argue against that?

 

[Fordy]

So if the guy says it was an accident and it was just a natural reaction to falling down, how do you argue against that?

if words were exchanged between the players. i’m sure his disciplinary history will be a major factor

 

[HolyCrap]

OK, so I'm a Canadian lawyer - though obviously that means I'm qualified in Canada (Alberta) and not the UK. At this sort of level Canadian criminal law is very similar to UK criminal law (we inherited the same law).

So the grounds to arrest are that police must have "reasonable and probable grounds" to believe an offence was committed. So if UK police are arresting the person responsible (curious the OP's article doesn't mention the name, although it's even listed on Johnson's Wiki page) they have more than just a suspicion that a crime was committed.

So the allegation is manslaughter. In order for the Crown to prove manslaughter, the Crown has to prove that the Accused person intended to commit the act - that is the Accused intended to kick or strike Johnson with his skate. If it was a pure accident then no charge is warranted.

But what the Crown doesn't need to prove is an intent to kill. If there is an intent to kill that is murder, not manslaughter. It sadly happens way more often than you think - someone punches another person in the face, they fall down, hit their head, get a brain bleed (or whatever) and die. That's manslaughter.

There is definitely no exception or exclusion to things that happen on ice during a hockey game. There are certainly examples of charges being laid in the past for on-ice incidents - the Todd Bertuzzi - Steve Moore example is perhaps the most famous, but certainly not the only one.

That being said you have to remember the burden of proof. That is - the Crown must prove the offence beyond a reasonable doubt. In this case the sequence is captured on video, so the facts themselves are not in question. In law, we call that the actus reus. The question for any judge however is one of mens rea - what was the Accused's intent or mindset? Did he have a "guilty mind"?

I haven't seen the video. Quite frankly, I don't want to see the video. I've seen enough shitty things in my job I don't need to seek out more. But that's going to be the question - did the Accused intend to kick Johnson with his skate? And in particular - can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to kick Johnson with his skate?

Thank you for posting this. I’m blown away at how so many folks have no idea how the justice system works.

 

[saska sault]

Well yeah but calling me in for questioning is not the same as being arrested…

I could be wrong but the UK court system tends to do things this way and let the investigation take place and if they find no intent, or reason for charges they will let him walk afterwards.

 

[Score08]

I was not baiting you. I just wondered if it was the same video. As I had people say to me before there are multiple videos online of Petgrave trying to kick people in the head with his skates and they all failed to provide any sources of their claims. So I had no idea which video you were talking about.

And I also believed any video being mentioned would have some relevance or even be slightly similar to the current situation, which turned out not to be the case.

What did he do twice? Have a leg on leg hit on someone? Have you never seen a leg on leg hit before? Happens every game.

Never seen a leg hit that nearly decapited a guy before . This guy is thug, his history points to it, led the league in pim , had a history of being a dirty player. The benefit of the doubt has not been on his side for a long time. Never before in the history of professional hockey has this occurred before. Plus you keep discounting the fact that the authorities performed an investigation, interviewed multiple experts per the article, and still chose to charge him. I don’t think he tried to kill the poor man, but I think he tried to f*** him up hard, recklessly, and intended to do damage.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

And would you like to look up a few laws regarding grievous bodily harm for the class

Maybe something called "Section 20"

R v Mowatt [1967] EWCA Crim 1 (20 June 1967)

So your argument is "it's not because I say it's not"

Alright

[mod] You're arguing unlimited liability if you open up hockey violence to criminal charges. Hockey players accept a certain level of violence as part of the job just like boxers and MMA fighters. When that violence goes beyond what is acceptable in the context it becomes criminal (no one can consent to grievous bodily harm). Canadian case law is pretty clear on this. I can't speak for the UK.

 

[5 Minute Major]

So if the guy says it was an accident and it was just a natural reaction to falling down, how do you argue against that?

Expert witnesses and video evidence.

 

[Dessloch]

Never seen a leg hit that nearly decapited a guy before . This guy is thug, his history points to it, led the league in pim , had a history of being a dirty player. The benefit of the doubt has not been on his side for a long time. Never before in the history of professional hockey has this occurred before. Plus you keep discounting the fact that the authorities performed an investigation, interviewed multiple experts per the article, and still chose to charge him. I don’t think he tried to kill the poor man, but I think he tried to f*** him up hard, recklessly, and intended to do damage.

The man has not been charged with anything.

I had no idea who they guy was when I saw the incident and figured nothing would come out of it.

Why are the victims teammates supporting the accused? You fail to answer that everytime.

This could have been an accident regardless of history of the the player, you dont guess and put someone behind bars because they were a dirty hockey player before, thats not how it works.

 

[66-30-33]

I am with the Johnson family so whatever they decide i'll agree with that. The guy is f***ed for the rest of his life over this so even if he doesn't go to jail but has to pay a huge fine to the family and they are fine with that then that's justice enough.

Although nothing is enough for the loss of a loved one.

 

[Hank Plank]

So the allegation is manslaughter. In order for the Crown to prove manslaughter, the Crown has to prove that the Accused person intended to commit the act - that is the Accused intended to kick or strike Johnson with his skate. If it was a pure accident then no charge is warranted.

This doesn't sound right. If I throw a hammer at you did I intend to hit you in the head? Maybe, maybe not but the act caused harm. Isn't this case the same?

 

[Jumptheshark]

I think it's highly unlikely that he's found guilty, but even to be charged with something is pretty well unheard of for an on-ice incident. I can't think of one since McSorely.

to put it in context

He was arrested as a standard operational procedure here in the UK in relation to a work place death

 

[oldtimersask]

Well, myself, like a lot of other people here, have played and watched hockey for many decades. Not once have any of us here seen anything like this happen.

However, kicking someone or rather sticking their skate blade out towards someone to disrupt a play has happened with this exact player before.

I've seen the video from years ago of this player sticking his skate out towards an opponent, and I've seen the recent one that resulted in the death of Adam Johnson.

This player is reckless with how he plays, and in both instances had clear intent to push his foot out and at the opposition in order to try and disrupt a play. How he wasn't suspended forever after the first one is a mystery, but the second time around he took someone's life.

Manslaughter seems obvious here. We all know he did not intend to kill this young man, but he has a history of doing exactly this and nobody who has played or watched the sport can, with a straight face, convince you his skate came up like that without intent. Maybe he did not intend to aim for the neck, but he did intend to get it up somewhere towards the player.

RIP.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Thank you for posting this. I’m blown away at how so many folks have no idea how the justice system works.

Mind you, this is in the criminal context. If the Johnson family decides to bring a civil action for wrongful death under the Fatal Accidents Act, the burden of proof is lower, on the balance of probabilities (i.e., more likely than not).

 

[Score08]

The man has not been charged with anything.

I had no idea who they guy was when I saw the incident and figured nothing would come out of it.

Why are the victims teammates supporting the accused? You fail to answer that everytime.

This could have been an accident regardless of history of the the player, you dont guess and put someone behind bars because they were a dirty hockey player before, thats not how it works.

There’s a manslaughter indictment, I’d say the authorities don’t issue these lightly. Guess we’ll wait and see

 

[MotorHockey]

Every time someone says nuh uh, they should just look at the footage if they can stomach it. It was clear even with the quality of the video that his skate came up in a chopping manner, not once but twice, to try to injure him. I'm sure they saw this and more and was the deciding factor. Also Petgrave receiving a standing ovation is unbelievable. What an outrage that is.

 

[Dessloch]

Every time someone says nuh uh, they should just look at the footage if they can stomach it. It was clear even with the quality of the video that his skate came up in a chopping manner, not once but twice, to try to injure him. I'm sure they saw this and more and was the deciding factor. Also Petgrave receiving a standing ovation is unbelievable. What an outrage that is.

Why do you think Johnsons teammates have stood behind and supported the accused and it being a complete freak accident?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

So if the guy says it was an accident and it was just a natural reaction to falling down, how do you argue against that?

Because there's a blurry video that clearly shows he meant to kick him!

No actually I agree with you. Unless there's some compelling evidence from several people who were right there and/or better video of the incident, there's completely reasonable doubt.

 

[BrendanGaunce4Selke]

Both Petgraves teammates and Johnson’s teammates are saying it was clearly an accident. I’d say they’d have the better view than anyone, no?

I mean. no. I wouldn't say that at all.

 

[GreatSaveEssensa]

can someone post the video so we can judge if there was an intentional kick or not?

Not the place for it at all. Goggle is your friend but be warned, it is very disturbing.

 

[nowhereman]

Reading over this thread and Twitter has me completely blown away. How can anyone watch that play and, with any level of finality, claim it was a complete accident? People are throwing around the whole "anyone who disagrees doesn't watch hockey" schtick, claiming it was just a "freak accident" and it is grossly irresponsible to suggest otherwise (even dragging this whole thing into the perpetual culture war nonsense). Many are rendering a verdict on the play without even having watched the clip, which is just mind-numbing.

I've played highly competitive hockey my entire life and have watched the NHL since I was old enough to walk - I have never once seen a play like that ever. We keep hearing "it happens every game" and, yet, every single video example of a player's skate flying above waist-level has been from a hip check or a player getting upended from behind. When a player is tripped, their skates will fly in the opposite direction of their momentum. It makes absolutely no sense for a player to send a skate flying forward in that situation, especially not at neck height. And Petgrave was turning in toward Johnson when the incident occurred, so he was leaning his upper body weight away from his skates.

I would never propose that the result was intentional but the action that led to the result is, at the very least, grossly negligent and reckless. I refuse to believe that, after watching this video frame-by-frame numerous times, this was a "freak accident" completely outside of Petrave's control.

 

[amnesiac]

as much as it was obviously an accident, it did seem like a reckless hockey play that he CHOSE to take a chance on executing that had tragic results. So yes, that is manslaughter.

I dont believe his leg flung up because of an external force, as he was in control in my opinion.

 

[Dessloch]

I've played highly competitive hockey my entire life and have watched the NHL since I was old enough to walk - I have never once seen a play like that ever. We keep hearing "it happens every game" and, yet, every single video example of a player's skate flying above waist level has been from a hip check or a player getting upended from behind. When a player is tripped, their skates will fly in the opposite direction of their momentum. It makes absolutely no sense for a player to send a skate flying forward in that situation, especially not at neck height. And Petgrave was turning in toward Johnson when the incident occurred, so he was leaning his upper body weight away from his skates.

I would never propose that the result was intentional but the action that led to the result is, at the very least, grossly negligent and reckless. I refuse to believe that, after watching this video frame-by-frame numerous times, that this was a "freak accident" completely outside of Petrave's control.

Why do you think Johnsons teammates have stood behind and supported the accused and it being a complete freak accident if it were so clear it was malicious? I assume they also play competitive hockey?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Killing someone because of your reckless actions is otherwise known as manslaughter. Most head shots in hockey are not criminal in nature. It's the line between hockey violence and a criminal act that usually doesn't get crossed. There's enough in this one to suggest that it could have.

Sorry, this is the lawyer in me coming out.

I've said that there's nothing magical about being on a hockey rink that excludes you from criminal responsibility. In this I totally agree with you.

But I have to cringe at the word "reckless". In order to prove manslaughter you need more that recklessness - you need intent. Not intent to kill - but intent to assault.

There is an offence of "criminal negligence causing death", but that is separate from manslaughter. For Crim neg you need conduct that shows a "wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of others". And again, you need to prove that "wanton or reckless disregard" beyond a reasonable doubt. As a matter of proof you generally need conduct that goes for an extended period of time, not just a momentary lapse of judgment. See R v Beatty [2008] 1 SCR 49 (offence of dangerous driving causing death, but basically the same test).

 

[Peter Griffin]

What happened to Adam Johnson was also an accident I do not believe for one second Matt Petgrave thought to himself "I'm going to kill this man" and then went out and did it.

Obviously not and I don’t think anyone is saying that. The question is whether or not Petgrave made a reckless play by sticking out his leg to make contact with Johnson, or if it was a completely accidental fall that caused his leg to fly up. That’s for the courts to decide if it gets that far.

I don't believe there was a sred of intent I believe just like the Perro Aguayo Jr incident, that the Adam Johnson incident was a freak accident with NO intent to kill whatsoever.

You don’t need to have any intent for manslaughter, just neglect or recklessness.