Arrest over Johnson death / released within 24 hours, investigation remains open

[MXD]

I have no clue as to how British criminal law works (it can't be THAT different from Canada, right?), but what I gather from the column is that he was...basically arrested for his inquest. There doesn't seem to be any charges against him now, but he's detained despite being presumably absolutely not a danger to society (though I guess he's a flight risk).

 

[SmytheKing]

We are going down a slippery slope if we are going to charge people for accidents let me provide an example.

For those that don't know there is a professional wrestler that goes by the name of Rey Mysterio Jr.

A few years ago during a tag team in Mexico Rey Mysterio performed a drop kick on another pro wrestler by the name of Perro Aguayo Jr.

Perro Aguayo Jr fell onto the middle rope, broke his neck and died as a result of that drop kick, you could say Rey Mysterio killed Perro Aguayo Jr.

Do you believe Rey Mysterio should have been arrested and charged for something that was clearly an accident because another person died?

If no why is this different? What happened to Perro Aguayo Jr was an accident Rey Mysterio had no intent to kill his opponent.

What happened to Adam Johnson was also an accident I do not believe for one second Matt Petgrave thought to himself "I'm going to kill this man" and then went out and did it.

I don't believe there was a sred of intent I believe just like the Perro Aguayo Jr incident, that the Adam Johnson incident was a freak accident with NO intent to kill whatsoever.

That's why he was charged with manslaughter and not murder. Manslaughter means there wasn't intent but someone died because you were reckless. Cannot think of anything that fits the definition of it better than what happened in this case.

There isn't a slippery slope here. It's the literal application of laws in place.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Adam Johnson: Manslaughter arrest over ice hockey player's death

A man is held in connection with the death of Nottingham Panthers player Adam Johnson.

www.bbc.co.uk

Only broke in UK a few minutes ago. Arrested for Manslaughter. Please note arrested NOT charged at this time.

this is not good. Lot of arm chair lawyers weighing in right

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

We are going down a slippery slope if we are going to charge people for accidents let me provide an example.

For those that don't know there is a professional wrestler that goes by the name of Rey Mysterio Jr.

A few years ago during a tag team in Mexico Rey Mysterio performed a drop kick on another pro wrestler by the name of Perro Aguayo Jr.

Perro Aguayo Jr fell onto the middle rope, broke his neck and died as a result of that drop kick, you could say Rey Mysterio killed Perro Aguayo Jr.

Do you believe Rey Mysterio should have been arrested and charged for something that was clearly an accident because another person died?

If no why is this different? What happened to Perro Aguayo Jr was an accident Rey Mysterio had no intent to kill his opponent.

What happened to Adam Johnson was also an accident I do not believe for one second Matt Petgrave thought to himself "I'm going to kill this man" and then went out and did it.

I don't believe there was a sred of intent I believe just like the Perro Aguayo Jr incident, that the Adam Johnson incident was a freak accident with NO intent to kill whatsoever.

The difference is that a dropkick is a routine wrestling move. A skate slicing the neck of an upright player is anything but routine.

Regardless of what anyone thinks, this was indisputably a death in the workplace, requiring a thorough investigation. I'm content to let the UK justice system pass judgement.

 

[Lt Dan]

We are going down a slippery slope if we are going to charge people for accidents

People have been charged for accidents for years ,it's called involuntary manslaughter. The question is was there a negligent or reckless act.

Here are numerous examples of where involuntary manslaughter is applied

Involuntary Manslaughter Cases – 10 Common Examples

Examples of involuntary manslaughter are killing someone else by improperly prescribing drugs or unlawfully practicing medicine, accidentally discharging a firearm, forcing workers to work outside in extreme heat, not controlling a dog with a history of attacking people, performing a legal duty...

www.shouselaw.com

Your example did not include a negligent or reckless act. It was an accident during a normal planned staged wresting match. That is considered a true accident.
The police are investigating this to determine how negligent or reckless Petgrave was

 

[irishlaxburger2]

We are going down a slippery slope if we are going to charge people for accidents let me provide an example.

For those that don't know there is a professional wrestler that goes by the name of Rey Mysterio Jr.

A few years ago during a tag team in Mexico Rey Mysterio performed a drop kick on another pro wrestler by the name of Perro Aguayo Jr.

Perro Aguayo Jr fell onto the middle rope, broke his neck and died as a result of that drop kick, you could say Rey Mysterio killed Perro Aguayo Jr.

Do you believe Rey Mysterio should have been arrested and charged for something that was clearly an accident because another person died?

If no why is this different? What happened to Perro Aguayo Jr was an accident Rey Mysterio had no intent to kill his opponent.

What happened to Adam Johnson was also an accident I do not believe for one second Matt Petgrave thought to himself "I'm going to kill this man" and then went out and did it.

I don't believe there was a sred of intent I believe just like the Perro Aguayo Jr incident, that the Adam Johnson incident was a freak accident with NO intent to kill whatsoever.

The question is whether or not the action that led to the result is normal for that sport. Recklessness is a huge part of the equation, so anything that is normalized and has precedent in that sport is way less likely to be deemed reckless. In your example, drop kicks in professional wrestling are normal actions. Just like punches thrown in hockey fights are normal actions. It’s extremely difficult to call those reckless.

A high kick used to impede a skater’s progress is not something normal in hockey. This is where it’s easy to begin arguing recklessness.

All in all, I don’t see this case changing anything in sports going forward in regards to criminality. I don’t see a slippery slope potential. This case will be ruled like prior sports cases, where it will be argued whether or not the action that took place is normal for that sport.

 

[Frank Drebin]

We are going down a slippery slope if we are going to charge people for accidents let me provide an example.

For those that don't know there is a professional wrestler that goes by the name of Rey Mysterio Jr.

A few years ago during a tag team in Mexico Rey Mysterio performed a drop kick on another pro wrestler by the name of Perro Aguayo Jr.

Perro Aguayo Jr fell onto the middle rope, broke his neck and died as a result of that drop kick, you could say Rey Mysterio killed Perro Aguayo Jr.

Do you believe Rey Mysterio should have been arrested and charged for something that was clearly an accident because another person died?

If no why is this different? What happened to Perro Aguayo Jr was an accident Rey Mysterio had no intent to kill his opponent.

What happened to Adam Johnson was also an accident I do not believe for one second Matt Petgrave thought to himself "I'm going to kill this man" and then went out and did it.

I don't believe there was a sred of intent I believe just like the Perro Aguayo Jr incident, that the Adam Johnson incident was a freak accident with NO intent to kill whatsoever.

I believe they try to establish intent in court.

Do you remember when Zach Kassian knocked Sam Gagners teeth out with his sticks "follow through"?

Not everything that happens on the ice is accidental.

 

[Panteras]

I have no clue as to how British criminal law works (it can't be THAT different from Canada, right?), but what I gather from the column is that he was...basically arrested for his inquest. There doesn't seem to be any charges against him now, but he's detained despite being presumably absolutely not a danger to society (though I guess he's a flight risk).

So you’re saying if im working with some dude and he falls and kills himslef, arresting me is just a normal part of the investigation? That doesn’t seem right unless there’s a good reason to do so.

 

[Score08]

Way to go being an asshat citing stuff and not willing to copy and paste a link of it! How old is this accident I am looking for? You said 3+ years? Why are you writing 3+years? It 3.5 years old? Why not state how old it is? Its probably easier to track down if give an actual time frame.

I found a video of him 13 years ago going leg to leg on someone during a hit, is that your +3 years ago incident?



If this is the one you are talking about it has zero relevance to the current situation, thats literally a routine play.

Is that why you did not want to state it was 13 years old and therefore said it was 3+ years ago to make it seem more recent?

So your agenda is clear now. My time frame was off but I suspected you were baiting me and wanted to confirm it. Let me ask you something, WHO THE F@@K cares how long ago it was! This wasn’t his first time ! Why would you defend someone who took the life of an innocent person by at the bare minimum dangerous, reckless behavior?

 

[Statto]

Can you point to the law that states this?

Don‘t have the time to start searching but it’s how everything gets handled out here, this is not unusual in the slightest.

I believe that names only get released before charging with things like a threat to life, the prevention or detection of crime or a matter of public interest and confidence.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

To be fair, have seen lots of hockey hits, have never seen any players legs go up the way this player's did. It very much looks like he is purposely leading his legs up. It didn't look like the natural way his body should have gone after his hit on the other player.

Agreed. I've watched that part of the video several times. It looks like a bizarre leg motion. But I also see his skate wobble and foot at an awkward angle. And honestly it's such a strange leg motion it makes it even harder to support that's an intentional move.

My main point to the post you're quoting is I was responding to someone who was essentially saying "It's weird people are spending so much time defending someone who is obviously guilty." When what that ignores is a fair number of people are saying it's not clear it was intentional.

Especially when you consider that Johnson's teammate who was sitting on the bench closest to the hit saw it and said it was accidental.

 

[Dessloch]

So your agenda is clear now. My time frame was off but I suspected you were baiting me and wanted to confirm it. Let me ask you something, WHO THE F@@K cares how long ago it was! This wasn’t his first time ! Why would you defend someone who took the life of an innocent person by at the bare minimum dangerous, reckless behavior?

Why would it be relevant if someone had a leg on leg hit 13 years ago? I played hockey for 20 years and I have had plenty of leg on leg hits go down. So first the video you were talking about has no relevance to this case. And you had no idea how old it was and did not want to provide any links to the video. (meaning your opinion on that video would be uncontested)

And you talking about agenda?

As for the bolded, you have to rely on a court of law to make this determination confirmed as nothing else than your own opinion.

Which btw, is contested by the victims own teammates who watched it unfold live as well. Why would the victims teammates support the accused if it was so clear cut he was dangerous/reckless on purpose?

 

[Hank Plank]

Don‘t have the time to start searching but it’s how everything gets handled out here, this is not unusual in the slightest.

"trust me bro"

I did some searching found nothing even close to definitive either way.

 

[Johnnucleo]

We are going down a slippery slope if we are going to charge people for accidents let me provide an example.

For those that don't know there is a professional wrestler that goes by the name of Rey Mysterio Jr.

A few years ago during a tag team in Mexico Rey Mysterio performed a drop kick on another pro wrestler by the name of Perro Aguayo Jr.

Perro Aguayo Jr fell onto the middle rope, broke his neck and died as a result of that drop kick, you could say Rey Mysterio killed Perro Aguayo Jr.

Do you believe Rey Mysterio should have been arrested and charged for something that was clearly an accident because another person died?

If no why is this different? What happened to Perro Aguayo Jr was an accident Rey Mysterio had no intent to kill his opponent.

What happened to Adam Johnson was also an accident I do not believe for one second Matt Petgrave thought to himself "I'm going to kill this man" and then went out and did it.

I don't believe there was a sred of intent I believe just like the Perro Aguayo Jr incident, that the Adam Johnson incident was a freak accident with NO intent to kill whatsoever.

awful example, not remotely the same. As others have stated, a dropkick in pro wrestling is a normal, expected move that is not reckless. Your example more befits, the Damar Hamlin incident where say he had died, was a normal tackle, not out of the ordinary, and as such, Tee Higgins would not have been charged. In the Adam Johnson incident, the action that took his life was not a normal routine hockey play. It was the result of a reckless action on Petgrave's part.

 

[Hawkster]

"trust me bro"

I did some searching found nothing even close to definitive either way.

It's a privacy law.

https://archive.ph/7TiNK

 

[Mr Kot]

I was wondering about whether or not this was fair, but he seems to have video history of him lifting his legs to make hits. I will still wait to see what happens at trial, but it's not a good look for him so far.

 

[JadedLeaf]

How his leg came up did look a bit unnatural.. but it'd be pretty incredible if it was planned.

I guess the important part here is if there's people who can testify or phone records or something that show a motive. If not, I have a hard time seeing this being deemed as an accident at the end of the day.

A lot more nuance to this than that. Can't compare hockey to driving a car.

If a guy crosschecks a guys head into the ice while down and he suffers a freak accident and dies, is the guy who cross checked deserve to get arrested?

It was a freak accident.

Uhhh yes, yes they do...

 

[5 Minute Major]

"drop kicks" are a normal, choreographed part of pro wrestling. That would be a freak accident that occurred in the normal course of an activity. Kicking with your skate blade is not a normal hockey play. He doesn't need to intend to kill Johnson if he did intend to kick him with a hockey blade attached to his foot for it to be manslaughter.

I can’t even believe people would argue against what you posted.

i guess it’s true what they say…common sense isn’t so common.

 

[Score08]

Why would it be relevant if someone had a leg on leg hit 13 years ago? I played hockey for 20 years and I have had plenty of leg on leg hits go down. So first the video you were talking about has no relevance to this case. And you had no idea how old it was and did not want to provide any links to the video. (meaning your opinion on that video would be uncontested)

And you talking about agenda?

As for the bolded, you have to rely on a court of law to make this determination confirmed as nothing else than your own opinion.

Which btw, is contested by the victims own teammates who watched it unfold live as well. Why would the victims teammates support the accused if it was so clear cut he was dangerous/reckless on purpose?

I knew it was older than I originally stated when you pretended to not know where it was and I found it in 30 secs. When the first 3 searches produced the video from 12 yrs ago I knew you were baiting me. I don’t care about your Al bundy days they have no relevance to this conversation. The guy has done this TWICE! And apparently there’s enough evidence to have charged him. You don’t think its odd the one time this has ever happened in the history of professional hockey, it’s surrounded in controversy that it may have been intentional? I’m not saying he tried to kill the guy, but it wasn’t an accident that his skate ended up near his head, for the second time in this predators career. Facts .

 

[Frank Drebin]

I did'nt have the stomach to watch the clip when it originally happened but this f***ing goofball is responsible for a mans death by his careless, brainless action.

 

[Statto]

"trust me bro"

I did some searching found nothing even close to definitive either way.

Search for the Leveson report (around 2012). It’s in there… I also don’t need to ’prove’ how it works in the UK. Plenty of Brit’s are on here and will be happy to correct me.

 

[AndreRoy]

Let's say, hypothetically, this tragedy happens on North American ice. Does the player get charged?

Quite possibly, yes. Getting a conviction may be difficult given the quality of the video (at least that which has been made public), and for that reason a DA may choose not to prosecute, but there’s enough there to take the case to trial IMO.

 

[JadedLeaf]

Pat Maroon also led the NHL in PIM. Tkachuck has been near the top. Are they a danger to everyone on the ice as well?

Do they have a history of using their skates and sticks as weapons?

 

[Dessloch]

I knew it was older than I originally stated when you pretended to not know where it was and I found it in 30 secs. When the first 3 searches produced the video from 12 yrs ago I knew you were baiting me. I don’t care about your Al bundy days they have no relevance to this conversation. The guy has done this TWICE! And apparently there’s enough evidence to have charged him. You don’t think its odd the one time this has ever happened in the history of professional hockey, it’s surrounded in controversy that it may have been intentional? I’m not saying he tried to kill the guy, but it wasn’t an accident that his skate ended up near his head, for the second time in this predators career. Facts .

I was not baiting you. I just wondered if it was the same video. As I had people say to me before there are multiple videos online of Petgrave trying to kick people in the head with his skates and they all failed to provide any sources of their claims. So I had no idea which video you were talking about.

And I also believed any video being mentioned would have some relevance or even be slightly similar to the current situation, which turned out not to be the case.

What did he do twice? Have a leg on leg hit on someone? Have you never seen a leg on leg hit before? Happens every game.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

I have no clue as to how British criminal law works (it can't be THAT different from Canada, right?), but what I gather from the column is that he was...basically arrested for his inquest. There doesn't seem to be any charges against him now, but he's detained despite being presumably absolutely not a danger to society (though I guess he's a flight risk).

Seems like there's a different standard for being arrested there. In US, you generally need 'Probable cause' or evidence a crime likely occurred. In UK, it's apparently lower than that...

It'd be weird to 'arrest' him now without charging, but im also on the side of it was more of a freak accident than manslaughter