Around the NHL 2023-2024

[Celtic Note]

That's all fine and dandy, but you can't act like it was a sure thing. Dunn made quite a few defensive gaffes and needed to be sheltered when he was with the Blues. I still think he's only average defensively, though he may improve in that regard. He's not ideal as a PP1QB as I've never seen him as an elite passer/playmaker. Seattle's power play was 12th worst in the league (slightly better than ours) and as I've said elsewhere Dunn somehow didn't get a single PP goal all year despite averaging 2:50 on the power play.

He is definitely an exciting player with a lot of skill, and he's got a mean streak which is always nice for a d-man. But people need to pump the brakes as if Dunn is a legit star 1D after one very strong season. A young team with cap space can afford to gamble on a guy like Dunn, but a few years ago the Blues weren't in the same position. Obviously in hindsight I think everyone would prefer Dunn to Krug, but we have to see how Dunn progresses going forward before deciding if Dunn is actually worth $7.3 million or not.

But all this chest thumping about "I was right about Dunn" really doesn't impress me. Every roster move is a gamble to some degree. You win some, you lose some. One downside of having as much depth as the Blues have had means sometimes you're gonna lose good players. I'm more of a big picture guy myself but to each their own. Hockey is a team sport and replacing Krug with Dunn doesn't magically turn our team into a contender.

Calling it chest thumping is just a way to demean those that are venting at the poor decision making and player projection by our team…and those who happened to foresee this as a likely scenario despite others who didn’t.

Dunn is closer to a number one than Krug and while I don’t think he is some elite #1D, he certainly is no less than a #2D. He anchored a top pairing that was a playoff team with Larsson (maybe he could have done the same here with Parayko if given the chance). Which is again more than we can say about Krug.

We signed Krug to a bad contract and then doubled down at the expense of a younger, faster and upcoming player. While people bring up the PP, Dunn’s true value is 5v5. He has a very strong break out, which is critical with the way the game is played these days. He also has speed to make up for turnovers when they do happen. He strongly contributes a majority of the game all 5v5, not just for 2 minutes on the PP per game. Honestly, Krug doesn’t have much value outside of those two minutes and he still has to be sheltered, while Dunn no longer is receiving that treatment.

While is contract is now more expensive than Krug, he also would have been significantly cheaper than Krug up until the day he signed his new contract.

 

[simon IC]

Could you tell me which of the "fire Armstrong" posts was legit criticism and not blind hate? Like I said, there still was no Krug vs Dunn debate until after it was done because no one wanted Krug and no one in the world imagined we would even entertain the idea. You're midunderstanding what I am saying. Ofcourse people discussed Dunn, just like we discuss every single Blues player but the Krug vs Dunn debate did not occur until it was to late and done. No one argued against signing Krug because no one knew it was a possibility and yet people are acting like they were some sort of clairvoyant and knew and argued against it since before it happened.



I would prefer Dunn at 7.3 what ever he's making over Krug at 6.5 or Pietrangelo at 9.

• Jan 27, 2020
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• #470

Ugh. Just imagining that little punk Krug in a Blues uniform made me throw up in my mouth a little.

2019-2020 St. Louis Blues - Defending the Cup - Part 3: The Prelude to Playoff Positioning

Blais_19? Bouw is 19...Blais is #9.

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There was actually talk on the Blues board of signing Krug when he was a free agent. Some posters thought he and Pietrangelo would make a good pairing. I was adamantly against it. I wanted absolutely nothing to do with Krug long before he became a Blue, and I posted several times about it.

 

[Reality Czech]

He's not making legit star 1D money. $7.35M gives him the 25th highest AAV among NHL D men. That $7.35M AAV is 8.8% of the cap. 26 D men signed deals that were for a greater percentage of the cap when they signed the contract.

He's also didn't get legit star 1D term. He is 1 of just 4 guys among the top 40 highest paid D that didn't get a 6+ year contract. The other 3 were all 31 or older when they began their non-long term contracts.

His AAV is low end 1D money and he didn't get anything close to the total dollars that legit star 1Ds get. There are 32 NHL D men currently playing on contracts worth $50M+ total dollars. Dunn got $29.4M total dollars.

No matter how you slice it, his contract is just not close to a legit star 1D contract. I wouldn't describe it as a legit 1D contract. It is a low-end 1D cap hit with 2nd pair term and structure. When we are talking about whether he proves to be worth this contract, being a star 1D, legit 1D, or the best D on a Cup winner isn't a relevant consideration. The contract doesn't pay him like any of those things.

Cool, replace the phrase legit star 1D with legit top pair guy. Honestly I'd rather have Larsson at his salary than Dunn at his. That's the type of player we really need.

 

[Reality Czech]

Calling it chest thumping is just a way to demean those that are venting at the poor decision making and player projection by our team…and those who happened to foresee this as a likely scenario despite others who didn’t.

Dunn is closer to a number one than Krug and while I don’t think he is some elite #1D, he certainly is no less than a #2D. He anchored a top pairing that was a playoff team with Larsson (maybe he could have done the same here with Parayko if given the chance). Which is again more than we can say about Krug.

We signed Krug to a bad contract and then doubled down at the expense of a younger, faster and upcoming player. While people bring up the PP, Dunn’s true value is 5v5. He has a very strong break out, which is critical with the way the game is played these days. He also has speed to make up for turnovers when they do happen. He strongly contributes a majority of the game all 5v5, not just for 2 minutes on the PP per game. Honestly, Krug doesn’t have much value outside of those two minutes and he still has to be sheltered, while Dunn no longer is receiving that treatment.

While is contract is now more expensive than Krug, he also would have been significantly cheaper than Krug up until the day he signed his new contract.

The point of my post was not to compare Krug and Dunn, but one season does not define a player. Krug had a great season two years ago but no one cares about that anymore.

As for chest thumping, how else to describe it? People love to bring up things that they were "right" about, even years later, but I guarantee those same people have been wrong about plenty of things as well. As I said earlier, every roster move is a gamble and no gambler has a 100% winning percentage. I stand by the points I made except for calling Dunn a star 1D. Having Dunn on our team now doesn't instantly turn us into a contender.

 

[Xerloris]

• Jan 27, 2020
• Add bookmark
• #470

Ugh. Just imagining that little punk Krug in a Blues uniform made me throw up in my mouth a little.

2019-2020 St. Louis Blues - Defending the Cup - Part 3: The Prelude to Playoff Positioning

Blais_19? Bouw is 19...Blais is #9.

forums.hfboards.com

There was actually talk on the Blues board of signing Krug when he was a free agent. Some posters thought he and Pietrangelo would make a good pairing. I was adamantly against it. I wanted absolutely nothing to do with Krug long before he became a Blue, and I posted several times about it.

My god there are some terrible takes in that thread.

Calling it chest thumping is just a way to demean those that are venting at the poor decision making and player projection by our team…and those who happened to foresee this as a likely scenario despite others who didn’t.

Dunn is closer to a number one than Krug and while I don’t think he is some elite #1D, he certainly is no less than a #2D. He anchored a top pairing that was a playoff team with Larsson (maybe he could have done the same here with Parayko if given the chance). Which is again more than we can say about Krug.

We signed Krug to a bad contract and then doubled down at the expense of a younger, faster and upcoming player. While people bring up the PP, Dunn’s true value is 5v5. He has a very strong break out, which is critical with the way the game is played these days. He also has speed to make up for turnovers when they do happen. He strongly contributes a majority of the game all 5v5, not just for 2 minutes on the PP per game. Honestly, Krug doesn’t have much value outside of those two minutes and he still has to be sheltered, while Dunn no longer is receiving that treatment.

While is contract is now more expensive than Krug, he also would have been significantly cheaper than Krug up until the day he signed his new contract.

I think Dunn plays, or well I should say played because I have no clue if he still plays this way or not but anyway, I think he played a lot like Faulk. Good step ups at the blue line with some big hits. Usually surprising the hell out of who ever he did it to. Faulk and Dunn probably would have been a great pairing.

 

[Celtic Note]

The point of my post was not to compare Krug and Dunn, but one season does not define a player. Krug had a great season two years ago but no one cares about that anymore.

As for chest thumping, how else to describe it? People love to bring up things that they were "right" about, even years later, but I guarantee those same people have been wrong about plenty of things as well. As I said earlier, every roster move is a gamble and no gambler has a 100% winning percentage. I stand by the points I made except for calling Dunn a star 1D. Having Dunn on our team now doesn't instantly turn us into a contender.

So the takeaway is what? We are not supposed to talk about past decisions, where we stood when they happened and where we stand now? Plenty of posters here admit when they are wrong in addition to when their opinions on a matter would have been better than what actually transpired. Can we not self critique nor critique the team? And when challenged on whether we held a stance at the time something happened or wether it was a case of hindsight, we are not supposed to make any sort of rebuttal?

Dunn hasn’t been good for just one year though. He has progressively gotten better over the course of his career, especially in Seattle.

We are talking about Krug vs Dunn because that was the decision the team made.

We analyze most every team decision. Why is this one any different?

 

[simon IC]

Cool, replace the phrase legit star 1D with legit top pair guy. Honestly I'd rather have Larsson at his salary than Dunn at his. That's the type of player we really need.

Now that, I agree with!

 

[PocketNines]

So Dunn is a 1D and Pietrangelo got a raise to 9M because that makes the point sound better. And people "who were right while I was wrong" is unimportant because those right people have been wrong before. What a rough summer for these people lol

Oh and don't let me forget, Krug was good two years ago so the people who said the contract was a disaster aren't being truthful, that is also alleged. Absolutely hapless stuff

 

[Brian39]

Cool, replace the phrase legit star 1D with legit top pair guy. Honestly I'd rather have Larsson at his salary than Dunn at his. That's the type of player we really need.

Oh for sure. Larsson is on one of the best value deals in the NHL. He's looked way better in Seattle than he did in Edmonton and would be getting way more money if he hit free agency now than he got a couple years ago. I'd take Larsson at his salary over 90% (or more) of the non-ELC players in the league. Our entire defense included.

 

[The Note]

Bergeron retired. Even as someone who hates the Bruins, Bergeron was impossible to dislike. The Bruins still have a nice core group but that is a big blow.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I think having the Blues play team defense the way Seattle does would have a bigger impact on their result than adding Dunn or removing Krug. It’s the coaching and execution, especially by the forwards, that makes a bigger impact than the personnel.

I get the sense Armstrong and Berube saw that. Did they hire the right assistants?

It would be nice if Krug looks better in a tighter system and recoups enough trade value to move him. A cheap internal replacement would be preferable, and the cap space opens a lot of scenarios.

 

[PJJJP]

Bergeron retired. Even as someone who hates the Bruins, Bergeron was impossible to dislike. The Bruins still have a nice core group but that is a big blow.

If Krejci also retires that's another big blow to the bruins. Losing Bergeron, Krejci, Hall, Orlov, and Bertuzzi from last years team. They still have a very good defense and goaltending so that should keep them in a playoff spot

 

[Brian39]

The NHL is worse off without Patrice Bergeron in it. He was easily the best 2 way center I watched in my lifetime and is obviously an absolute no-doubt 1st ballot Hall of Famer. I'm sad that I will never get to watch him play hockey again, because he was an absolute treat to watch. By all accounts, he is a hell of a leader too. If he wants, he is going to be able to do whatever he wants to do in the hockey world. I can't blame any player who decides to just retire and never work again after hockey (that's what I would do if I had a $20M+ net worth) but I hope he stays in the hockey universe.

I'm not convinced that Boston is still a playoff team. So much of their excellent team defense (and possession ability) ran through Bergeron. I can't see Krejci coming back with Bergeron gone and if that's the case then they won't be returning 3 of the 5 guys who took 100+ faceoffs for them last year. Charlie Coyle, Zacha, and Geekie down the middle in the top 9 is a pretty rough group.

The D group is still very good, but I'm not as high on their goalies as many. They both played very well last year, but I think the team defensive structure was more responsible for their otherworldly numbers than the actual goalie play. I doubt they get lit up in goals against this year, but I won't be at all surprised if they fall to middle of the road in goals against. With the losses to the scoring ability, I think they could miss the playoffs in that division if Pasta doesn't put up an MVP-level season.

 

[joe galiba]

The NHL is worse off without Patrice Bergeron in it. He was easily the best 2 way center I watched in my lifetime and is obviously an absolute no-doubt 1st ballot Hall of Famer. I'm sad that I will never get to watch him play hockey again, because he was an absolute treat to watch. By all accounts, he is a hell of a leader too. If he wants, he is going to be able to do whatever he wants to do in the hockey world. I can't blame any player who decides to just retire and never work again after hockey (that's what I would do if I had a $20M+ net worth) but I hope he stays in the hockey universe.

I'm not convinced that Boston is still a playoff team. So much of their excellent team defense (and possession ability) ran through Bergeron. I can't see Krejci coming back with Bergeron gone and if that's the case then they won't be returning 3 of the 5 guys who took 100+ faceoffs for them last year. Charlie Coyle, Zacha, and Geekie down the middle in the top 9 is a pretty rough group.

The D group is still very good, but I'm not as high on their goalies as many. They both played very well last year, but I think the team defensive structure was more responsible for their otherworldly numbers than the actual goalie play. I doubt they get lit up in goals against this year, but I won't be at all surprised if they fall to middle of the road in goals against. With the losses to the scoring ability, I think they could miss the playoffs in that division if Pasta doesn't put up an MVP-level season.

plus, Ottawa and Buffalo are close to taking that next step in the division

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Boston is going to have a worse fall than us. I honestly think even Pittsburgh will as well.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Watching Boston fall is gonna be fun to watch.

 

[stlbluz]

Watching Boston fall is gonna be fun to watch.

Pittsburgh too. Watching chicago & detroit move up the ranks is going to be insufferable though.

 

[Xerloris]

The NHL is worse off without Patrice Bergeron in it. He was easily the best 2 way center I watched in my lifetime and is obviously an absolute no-doubt 1st ballot Hall of Famer. I'm sad that I will never get to watch him play hockey again, because he was an absolute treat to watch. By all accounts, he is a hell of a leader too. If he wants, he is going to be able to do whatever he wants to do in the hockey world. I can't blame any player who decides to just retire and never work again after hockey (that's what I would do if I had a $20M+ net worth) but I hope he stays in the hockey universe.

I'm not convinced that Boston is still a playoff team. So much of their excellent team defense (and possession ability) ran through Bergeron. I can't see Krejci coming back with Bergeron gone and if that's the case then they won't be returning 3 of the 5 guys who took 100+ faceoffs for them last year. Charlie Coyle, Zacha, and Geekie down the middle in the top 9 is a pretty rough group.

The D group is still very good, but I'm not as high on their goalies as many. They both played very well last year, but I think the team defensive structure was more responsible for their otherworldly numbers than the actual goalie play. I doubt they get lit up in goals against this year, but I won't be at all surprised if they fall to middle of the road in goals against. With the losses to the scoring ability, I think they could miss the playoffs in that division if Pasta doesn't put up an MVP-level season.

I think Gainey was close if not better, didn't pay attention to 2 way center play in the 90's. Why do you think Bergeron was out performed in the playoffs? Toews in 2013 and ROR in 2019?

 

[joe galiba]

I think Gainey was close if not better, didn't pay attention to 2 way center play in the 90's. Why do you think Bergeron was out performed in the playoffs? Toews in 2013 and ROR in 2019?

Guy Carbonneau, and Bobby Clarke were fabulous as well

Clarke was only on the ice for 19 even-strength goals against in 1975 and 22 in 1976. To put it in some perspective, that’s a combined 41 goals. Pavel Datsyuk, resident Selke expert, was on the ice for 43 against in just one season (his best by the metric, 2008) while playing less time than Clarke, against worse competition than Clarke, in a far lower scoring era than Clarke…all the while Clarke led the league in assists both seasons which Datsyuk was fairly close to doing, but ultimately did not

 

[Brian39]

I think Gainey was close if not better, didn't pay attention to 2 way center play in the 90's. Why do you think Bergeron was out performed in the playoffs? Toews in 2013 and ROR in 2019?

I don't think that he was outperformed by individual players in the playoffs. He and ROR were on the ice against each other for 20 minutes at 5 on 5 in the Cup Final. ROR won the matchup 2-0, but that is such a small sample size that I'm not reading too much into it. Especially since Bergeron was above 50% on a lot of the underlying metrics.

His assignment in both 2013 and 2019 was to go against the 'scoring' line. He played almost double the minutes against Kane than he did against Toews. He played 30-32 minutes vs Schenn/Schwartz/Tarasenko vs 20 minutes against ROR. It's not like either of those rounds came down to 1C vs 1C.

I think that our team as a whole outplayed the Bruins at 5 on 5 and Binner was excellent (especially against the Bergeron line. Bergeron had an xGF% of 50.03% at 5 on 5 that series, but was held scoreless. I think that's small sample sizes more than getting outperformed by individuals.

Bergeron made 3 trips to the Cup Final and is in the top 10 for most playoff stats in the cap era. 8th in playoff games played. His +42 is 2nd. His 86 even strength points is 6th. His 128 total points is 9th. I don't think losing a couple Cup Final matchups means that he got outperformed.

I was too young for Gainey. I didn't really start gaining an appreciation for defensive play until the late 90s.

 

[The Note]

It's also always worth mentioning re: 2013 and Bergeron that he was, even by the psychotic standards of the NHL playoffs, playing incredibly injured by the end of that series. "After the Chicago Blackhawks eliminated the Bruins in six games in the 2013 Cup Final, it was revealed that Bergeron had played the deciding game with cracked ribs, torn cartilage and a punctured lung suffered in Game 5, plus a separated shoulder sustained during the first period of Game 6. He logged 17:45 of ice time in the loss, then wound up in the hospital." - link.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

 

[PJJJP]

Pretty decent deal 8 X 9.75

 

[Brian39]

Rocky leaves an interesting legacy for that franchise. For more than a decade he was the hero who reversed his dad's outdated/cheap/shortsighted decisions, brought the team into the 21st century pro sports landscape and presided over the league's first dynasty (or the closest thing to it) in the cap era. However, the last few years have tarnished that reputation quite a bit.

Cup #1 will forever have a black mark due to the organization learning (and doing nothing) about a coach-on-player sex assault during the playoff run. The decade-late investigation into the matter made it crystal clear that the decision to do nothing was motivated by a desire to avoid distraction during the playoff run and that led to a rapist having his name engraved on the Cup. The Xs that now cover that name will now act as a permanent reminder that the team's lowest moment is inseparable from what most of their fanbase considers (or once considered) their fondest memory.

I think Wirtz's legacy could have weathered that storm right up until his outburst about it in the press conference following the league's punishment. His angry insistence to the media that it was over and not to be talked about anymore was incredibly tone deaf and mirrored the motivations that led to the organization doing nothing back in 2010.

I think it is telling that most of the league-wide fan frustration about them getting Bedard was about a morally bankrupt organization being rewarded rather than frustration about a formerly great team getting another star prospect. The most frequent complaints I saw wasn't like people that were pissed that the Pens went from Mario to Sid. It was people pissed that the Hawks even had their 2023 pick in the first place following the results of the Aldrich investigation.

It's going to be interesting to see what Danny Wirtz does in the next 1-2 years to make the organization his own. 2023/24 was clearly year 1 of a new era for them and Danny was the man saying the right things in the wake of the investigation. I have to think that he will be eager to truly make the team his own.

 

[Celtic Note]

Hmmm… not sure I support this. Better to say nothing IMO.