Around the NHL 2022-2023 *Mod warning in effect pg145

[The Note]

Keller has no trade protection for another year, so I would think Arizona can get some attractive offers for him to destinations he may not find as attractive. I can’t see St Louis in that bidding war.

I know very little about the arena deal that was voted down, but my understanding was that it was privately funded, As opposed to some of the publicly financed arenas where cities get a bad deal. On the surface it looks like it was a great deal for Tempe. What were the big objections and why did people vote NO.

I'm no expert on the deal but I have family in the area that pointed out that while it would be privately financed the Coyotes ownership would get a huge amount of tax breaks, to the tune of $500 million or so, and there is some real bad-will locally for Meruelo after the Coyotes stiffing vendors and contractors on payments from a while back. This article goes into more depth on the opposition's views (which includes both of those concerns) -- there seemed to be some gentrification/pricing locals out of the area backlash too.

 

[Xerloris]

If it was 100% privately funded they wouldn't have voted on it. The "arena" was privately funded. Taxpayers would have paid for site cleanup and infrastructure and other costs/tax breaks. It may have been better than many other arena deals, but it wasn't free to the voters.

Saying they pay for tax breaks doesn't really make sense since no one pays for the tax break and if you're saying they're not getting the tax because of the break so that counts as paying for it, well now they're getting no taxes so that's even more expensive for them then.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Saying they pay for tax breaks doesn't really make sense since no one pays for the tax break and if you're saying they're not getting the tax because of the break so that counts as paying for it, well now they're getting no taxes so that's even more expensive for them then.

foregoing tax revenue from multibillion dollar real estate development is huge cost. it is a transfer of money from municipality to wealthy developers and the team. if voters feel like that is preferable than putting money into schools or roads or police or whatever, fine, but let's not pretend that it doesn't have cost.

 

[Brian39]

foregoing tax revenue from multibillion dollar real estate development is huge cost. it is a transfer of money from municipality to wealthy developers and the team. if voters feel like that is preferable than putting money into schools or roads or police or whatever, fine, but let's not pretend that it doesn't have cost.

Not receiving tax revenue from a multibillion dollar development does have costs/consequences. Ideologically, I'm generally opposed to the money that flows from cities/municipalities to large corporate entities and I do think there is a good argument that the Coyotes were trying to hide behind the 'private financing' terminology to ignore the benefit of these tax breaks.

However, the point being made by @Xerloris is that the tax breaks would have been from taxes on the revenue/profits derived from the development. If there is no development and the land continues to just be an environmental concern, the city is still receiving zero tax revenue from the land to put toward schools, roads, police, or anything else. Considering that the land is currently a very negative value asset for the city, I'm not sure that development is going to happen without the city offering financial incentive to a developer. Building on former mining and waste disposal areas without any existing infrastructure is generally a huge pain in the ass. I think this is a situation where there is a good argument that this land is going to generate zero tax revenue for the city over (at least a lot of) the period of time that the team would have been receiving the tax breaks.

The 'cost' of $500M in tax breaks isn't just $500M of losses to the city when the alternative is a peace of land that generates no tax revenue.

 

[TheDizee]

bye bye dubas

 

[PJJJP]

Damn the leaf boys must be sad that dubas is leaving. Now how can they demand 15 mil per year if he isn’t around to give them the contracts they want

 

[Louie the Blue]

Not receiving tax revenue from a multibillion dollar development does have costs/consequences. Ideologically, I'm generally opposed to the money that flows from cities/municipalities to large corporate entities and I do think there is a good argument that the Coyotes were trying to hide behind the 'private financing' terminology to ignore the benefit of these tax breaks.

However, the point being made by @Xerloris is that the tax breaks would have been from taxes on the revenue/profits derived from the development. If there is no development and the land continues to just be an environmental concern, the city is still receiving zero tax revenue from the land to put toward schools, roads, police, or anything else. Considering that the land is currently a very negative value asset for the city, I'm not sure that development is going to happen without the city offering financial incentive to a developer. Building on former mining and waste disposal areas without any existing infrastructure is generally a huge pain in the ass. I think this is a situation where there is a good argument that this land is going to generate zero tax revenue for the city over (at least a lot of) the period of time that the team would have been receiving the tax breaks.

The 'cost' of $500M in tax breaks isn't just $500M of losses to the city when the alternative is a peace of land that generates no tax revenue.

While in general I'm opposed to public $ going into development for billionaires' sports teams, this deal actually didn't seem that bad.

Yes, Tempe would have been abating a property tax on the arena for up to 30 years and also splitting sales tax revenue with the team, but the taxpayers' largest contribution would be raising capital generated through government-issued bonds to remediate the site, which is a landfill.

The taxpayers wouldn't have the entire or majority of the burden in this instance as opposed to St. Louis building the Dome and allowing a tenant to be able to leave before the entire stadium is paid off.

 

[mk80]

I would say design, permitting, bidding and construction would put you at 2 years or more. Given all the mechanical/HVAC wait times, maybe three years from project kickoff.

I would guess they have a design firm already working in a master planning / schematic design, plus due diligence going concurrently. So they may be 6months into that already, but AZ is basement level cheap, so who knows.

I admittedly have skimmed the thread so apologies if someone already replied with this but:

Technically their Mullett timeline could still come out on schedule if they can get approved for a new site soon, the Tempe site would have required I think anywhere from 3-6 months (I'm probably incorrect on that estimate) of time to remediate the old landfill and chemicals. So if approved quickly for another site they could theoretically put shovels into the ground sooner than the Tempe one would have allowed.

 

[Brian39]

While in general I'm opposed to public $ going into development for billionaires' sports teams, this deal actually didn't seem that bad.

Yes, Tempe would have been abating a property tax on the arena for up to 30 years and also splitting sales tax revenue with the team, but the taxpayers' largest contribution would be raising capital generated through government-issued bonds to remediate the site, which is a landfill.

The taxpayers wouldn't have the entire or majority of the burden in this instance as opposed to St. Louis building the Dome and allowing a tenant to be able to leave before the entire stadium is paid off.

This was one of the least business-friendly deals of any somewhat recent US or Canadian arena deals I can recall. But I still have a lot of time for arguments from locals that no deal is better than a bad deal that is less bad than the deals other cities took.

 

[PJJJP]

Cooley returning for his sophomore season so Snuggerud will have company next year!

 

[CoMoBlues]

I'm no expert on the deal but I have family in the area that pointed out that while it would be privately financed the Coyotes ownership would get a huge amount of tax breaks, to the tune of $500 million or so, and there is some real bad-will locally for Meruelo after the Coyotes stiffing vendors and contractors on payments from a while back. This article goes into more depth on the opposition's views (which includes both of those concerns) -- there seemed to be some gentrification/pricing locals out of the area backlash too.

Thanks to The Note for posting the article, which does a good job explaining the opposition’s bipartisan grass roots campaign. A stadium district zoned for commercial but includes 2000 apartments and gambling houses could be ripe for corruption. From the article:

Tempe 1st has called out Meruelo for unpaid bills and his financial management while at the helm of the Coyotes while they were playing at Glendale’s Gila River Arena. The team relocated to the Valley from Canada in 1996, moving into Gila River Arena in 2003 after Glendale borrowed $183 million to build it. In 2019, Meruelo bought 95% stake in the team, and just a year later the team was at least $500,000 behind in payments, according to the arena’s management company. After the 2021-2022 season, Glendale said it would not renew the Coyotes lease because of delinquent tax bills and unpaid arena charges.

Sounds like the owner is a real piece of work.

At the Monday news conference, Andrea Soto, an Arizona State University sophomore studying justice studies and president of the Arizona Students’ Association, said young people care about things that she said would be threatened by the proposed development. “We care about the environment, our water crisis, air pollution, respecting the land and fighting global warming. We care about all people having a safe and affordable place to live, not luxury condos,” Soto said. “We are not impressed by more part-time, low-wage jobs that don’t offer health care, and that’s if Meruelo even pays up. We have values and needs in our community that this developer and this proposal don’t even begin to address.”

 

[Brian39]

It is going to be a very interesting 6 weeks for Toronto.

Matthews can't sign an extension until July 1st, but negotiations need to start way before then. His NMC kicks in on July 1st and I don't see how Toronto lets that kick in if it is still unclear whether he will extend at a contract they can live with.

I have to imagine that a large part of his decision will be based on his thoughts on the new GM's plans for the team. 6 weeks is not a long time to hire a new GM, sell the franchise player on the new GM's vision, and complete contract negotiations with that franchise player. All while also preparing for a draft, gauging league interest in the team's other players, and likely engaging in a coaching search.

 

[mk80]

Worth noting that Elliott Friedman in his personal opinion on who the Leafs could target, just listed Doug Armstrong as someone he thinks they could go after on NHL Network.

I'm not sure where he gets the idea DA is available. He also listed Brad Treliving, and Calgary already declined to let him speak with Pittsburgh so there's also that.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Worth noting that Elliott Friedman in his personal opinion on who the Leafs could target, just listed Doug Armstrong as someone he thinks they could go after on NHL Network.

I'm not sure where he gets the idea DA is available. He also listed Brad Treliving, and Calgary already declined to let him speak with Pittsburgh so there's also that.

Did he mention chiarelli? Bc that would be great hire for leafs.

seriously, though, I don’t see leafs job as better than one army currently has. Sure, Toronto is hockey Mecca and winning there would be huge for any Exec, but way leaf’s are set up it’s lesser job that he has now. He would report to shanahan and answer to 3 ownership groups who don’t necessarily see eye to eye. In St. Louis he reports to stillman and has near total autonomy. Why trade place where you are set up for success for one where you are set up to fail?

 

[mk80]

Did he mention chiarelli? Bc that would be great hire for leafs.

seriously, though, I don’t see leafs job as better than one army currently has. Sure, Toronto is hockey Mecca and winning there would be huge for any Exec, but way leaf’s are set up it’s lesser job that he has now. He would report to shanahan and answer to 3 ownership groups who don’t necessarily see eye to eye. In St. Louis he reports to stillman and has near total autonomy. Why trade place where you are set up for success for one where you are set up to fail?

If they like Armstrong enough to ask to even talk to him, Stillman should offer the fact that Chiarelli has been tutored by Armstrong for what 2 seasons now?

 

[BlueDream]

Toronto looks like an absolute joke right now. First their fans about act like they win the Cup for winning one playoff series, and now after one more round their GM is gone, with uncertainty surrounding their coach and star players too.

That’s a f***ing circus.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned, but one particular sticking point that forced this to referendum is that some of the tax breaks were kick backs for cleaning up the landfill.

 

[DoubleK81]

Come on Dallas, don't let these shitbirds control the game.

 

[BlueDream]

Come on Dallas, don't let these shitbirds control the game.

Petro is in your head so much that you’re rooting for Dallas huh? Kinda weird.

 

[DoubleK81]

Petro is in your head so much that you’re rooting for Dallas huh? Kinda weird.

I hate Stone, Eichel, and VGK's management more than I dislike Captain Neckbeard, so no. Regardless, I've always really liked Pavelski and would like to see him get a cup despite my intense dislike for DeBoer.

 

[tfriede2]

I still want the better draft pick, even if it’s only by 2-3 spots.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

If it was 100% privately funded they wouldn't have voted on it. The "arena" was privately funded. Taxpayers would have paid for site cleanup and infrastructure and other costs/tax breaks. It may have been better than many other arena deals, but it wasn't free to the voters.

Fair enough. But it seems like kind of a no-brainer economically in terms of the value to the community. I’ve seen arena deals where the tax-payers are getting the shaft, but this doesn’t seem like that at all. From what I’ve read in the meanwhile, the most common complaint was the impact on traffic.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I'm no expert on the deal but I have family in the area that pointed out that while it would be privately financed the Coyotes ownership would get a huge amount of tax breaks, to the tune of $500 million or so, and there is some real bad-will locally for Meruelo after the Coyotes stiffing vendors and contractors on payments from a while back. This article goes into more depth on the opposition's views (which includes both of those concerns) -- there seemed to be some gentrification/pricing locals out of the area backlash too.

Thanks for this. I remember reading about the nasty business practices, and late payments. I hadnt connected that reputation from the owner with sentiment for the franchise with regards to the arena. I appreciate the link.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

It is going to be a very interesting 6 weeks for Toronto.

Matthews can't sign an extension until July 1st, but negotiations need to start way before then. His NMC kicks in on July 1st and I don't see how Toronto lets that kick in if it is still unclear whether he will extend at a contract they can live with.

I have to imagine that a large part of his decision will be based on his thoughts on the new GM's plans for the team. 6 weeks is not a long time to hire a new GM, sell the franchise player on the new GM's vision, and complete contract negotiations with that franchise player. All while also preparing for a draft, gauging league interest in the team's other players, and likely engaging in a coaching search.

They could really stand to hire someone with experience and pre-existing respect from the players. I don’t know who is on that list.

But I agree with the decision to fire Dubas. That team has several great players, but they don’t look anywhere close to being a contending team. Addressing the flaws looks very tricky. But Dubas created the mess.

 

[Celtic Note]

I admittedly have skimmed the thread so apologies if someone already replied with this but:

Technically their Mullett timeline could still come out on schedule if they can get approved for a new site soon, the Tempe site would have required I think anywhere from 3-6 months (I'm probably incorrect on that estimate) of time to remediate the old landfill and chemicals. So if approved quickly for another site they could theoretically put shovels into the ground sooner than the Tempe one would have allowed.

If they still have to remediate the site, that could take years if they haven’t already started the process. An environmental impact statement, permitting, actual remediation, monitoring/inspections and NFA is an laborious process. It might be years before the site is suitable for building the stadium.