If he was in the Jets organization we would all be talking about the ruined prospect that was never given a chance.
Around the NHL 10 - 2022/23
- Thread starter tbcwpg
- Start date
-
HF Sportsbook has been reset for the new season - Click here to play.
- Status
- Jun 10, 2014
- 58,669
- 30,827
Getting a Jesper Bratt in the 6th rd doesn't hurt either. He is outscoring those 1st OA picks of theirs.
Miles Wood in the 4th helps too.
Why would we be talking about that. He played 100's of games for the Avs in a variety of roles over a number of seasons and wasn't able to ascend past a bottom 6 level.
He was given ample opportunity and has had a 350 plus game NHL career. That is more games then the average player gets. This isn't the player I'd use to try to prove your point, he is more akin to Roslovic then a Petan/Niku/Heinola.
You’ve been around long enough to know that something doesn’t have to be true if it hits the right narrative for some.
- Jun 10, 2014
- 58,669
- 30,827
It was never just about underlying analytics. It was the eye-test at the same time. It was about knowing that they couldn't keep it up because they weren't playing as well as the record would indicate.
- Jun 10, 2014
- 58,669
- 30,827
I would go a little further. He's just not that good.
His high water mark came in 2018 and it wasn't all that great. He has gone downhill steadily since then.
I wouldn't be interested for league minimum.
Except he has been given a chance. Several from the look of it. 354 NHL games.
The Oilers had the great misfortune of having Chiarelli as their GM (proceeded by Tambo, who was also awful).Yeah, just look at Edmonton...
Bratt is a legit Top 5 NHL player - and the Devils weren't too bad last year, but they were somewhat hampered by their .881 (!) goaltending. They've made some significant additions over the last couple of seasons: Dougie Hamilton and John Marino is quite a defensive upgrade over aged-out PK Subban and Sami Vatanen. Hitting on Hughes and Hischier has also helped a lot.
JetsFan815
Replacement Level Poster
- Jan 16, 2012
- 19,541
- 25,343
Getting a Jesper Bratt in the 6th rd doesn't hurt either. He is outscoring those 1st OA picks of theirs.
True. We drafted Stanley, Luke Green, Cederholm, Stallard, Berdin ahead of Bratt that draft.
Edit: Looking back it is insane how he fell that far in the draft. Pretty decent numbers in the Allsvenskan in his draft year. PPG in the U20 league in his draft-1 season. Size is not massive but not tiny either. Seems like he should have been atleast a late 2nd-3rd round pick by stats alone.
Last edited:
- Jun 10, 2014
- 58,669
- 30,827
It seems that draft was hard to evaluate. Other than the ones who dropped or rose because of size good ones were missed and poor ones were taken. After 17, it was hard to pick good ones other than Debrincat and Gerard. That helped me to eventually accept the Stanley pick. But other players taken later have succeeded. Bratt is the poster boy.
sipowicz
The thrill is gone
- Mar 16, 2011
- 32,045
- 42,542
voyageur
Hockey fanatic
- Jul 10, 2011
- 10,208
- 9,170
Yeah the talent is there up front, but Marc Staal as your #1 LD, that's a stretch. Maurice in not getting the 2008 Staals anymore. At some point Maurice might have to pin his season on Spencer Knight, because Bobrovsky is looking like one of the worst contracts in the league. I still don't know how the Panthers are going to manoeuver Duclair into their lineup next month or January, being pressed to the Cap as is.
Right now the WC spots in the East look to be between Rangers, Flyers, Panthers, and Red Wings, though that can change. Two weeks ago you wouldn't have had St. Louis is the WC race in the West but there they are.
I think Detroit might actually beat them out this year, based on goaltending, a better defense, and special teams.
AlphaLackey
Registered User
I'm with you with regards to what coaches challenges currently are now. And I guess that's part of the reason why I'm going on about it like I always am because someday, some coach is gonna figure out that the "take it or leave it" probability is so bloody low. It absolutely should be reserved for completely egregious plays like that (in)famous Colorado goal that was like three feet bad.
I think challenges are good to have in some way, that's where we diverge. I think the game is better the more tactical opportunities are in the game, even if the game hasn't gotten there yet (insert "Y U NO TRIP EICHEL?!" tirade here again). But crank up the penalty.
Like in a situation with a game opening goal early in the first? You could make the consequence of failure a *ten minute match penalty* and it would STILL be correct to challenge at about a 50% chance of success! But the optics of failure would be so bad that I think it really would restrict it to the kind of things its meant to catch, you know?
- Mar 10, 2010
- 35,472
- 33,423
Yup just think of the the prospects that left here after being held back and became really good NHL players for other teams. I think the sample size is still zero but I am might be forgetting someone.
I admit I can fall in love with our prospects with the best of them, I generally don’t love it when we play waiver wire fodder over what I think is good prospect that I think is ready for a shot. However, I have to admit many of those guys I thought that were getting jobbed ended up flopping.
voyageur
Hockey fanatic
- Jul 10, 2011
- 10,208
- 9,170
Noticed that Nic Petan got the call from the Wild yesterday, after starting the season with 8 points in 5 games with Iowa. Good chance he gets into Wednesday's game against the Jets.
Of all the former Jets players he's probably the one I'm cheering for the most. Hard to say he got much of a chance from Paul Maurice. Since being traded though he hasn't really been able to stay afloat in the NHL.
One thing I noticed from Cap Friendly is he is drawing on a $500 000 AHL salary this year, that's not a bad haul at all, 2/3 of an NHL minimum salary. Didn't realize AHL salaries got that high.
Of all the former Jets players he's probably the one I'm cheering for the most. Hard to say he got much of a chance from Paul Maurice. Since being traded though he hasn't really been able to stay afloat in the NHL.
One thing I noticed from Cap Friendly is he is drawing on a $500 000 AHL salary this year, that's not a bad haul at all, 2/3 of an NHL minimum salary. Didn't realize AHL salaries got that high.
My own view is that this org fails to put enough emphasis to that final step in the development plan where the prospect deemed nearly ready for the big club is brought up for a reasonable period of time and through a planned approach given sheltered, perhaps even shared ice-time. ,to acclimate to the skill/speed of the nhl. And obviously given latitude to make learning mistakes without fear of benching/demotion.
Seems to me that, absent such transition plan, it takes much longer for the prospect to develop - if indeed, he ever develops to his full potential.
Seems to me that, absent such transition plan, it takes much longer for the prospect to develop - if indeed, he ever develops to his full potential.
Isn’t that what they are doing with Perfetti and Samberg? Hopefully Heinola is soon ready for this next step in his development.
I think it’s fair to say we’ve had an issue in the past with typecasting certain players while developing them. Why else did Perfetti start last year on a checking line with Lowry? Vesalainen was tasked with re-inventing his game completely. Laine too, to a degree.
That seems to be in the past now, though.
That seems to be in the past now, though.
The way I look at it there is nothing an organization wants more than for as many of its own picks to maximize their potential. This is doubly true for the Jets who don’t attract free agents. True North pumps a lot of money into player development to the point of running their own farm team in the same city. These kids are then monitored daily in games and at practice and what they do off the ice. The player development staff works with all individually in the off season to keep them on track.
I then way that against random fan opinion from many who don’t even catch the odd Moose game. IMO it just makes more sense to leave it to a professional team dedicated to the job then to pretend I know better based on a couple google searches and confirmation from my selected echo chamber.
- Jun 10, 2014
- 58,669
- 30,827
The trouble is that we can never know whether or not they would have flopped if they had been handled differently from the start.
- Jun 10, 2014
- 58,669
- 30,827
That's what happens when they need an injury callup to get into the lineup. Under those conditions they are required to contribute right away.
I also wonder what they are told they need to do to take the next step. Was Petan told that he needed to learn to play a checking role? Or was he told that he needed to work on his skating speed to be able to keep up with top 6 linemates? Both? Neither?
It is another thing we will never know. Maybe they are being told the right things and simply failing to do them. There are a lot of reasons that people fail at a lot of things. We are talking about people succeeding at the highest levels in their fields. It pretty obviously does not come easily.
We hope it is in the past. If that was in fact what was happening. It certainly looked like it from here.
- Jun 10, 2014
- 58,669
- 30,827
Yes - but them wanting something doesn't mean they will automatically do the things most likley to achieve what they want. But you are right that a whole team of professionals should be expecyted to do the right things more often than not. It is just that they are not above being questioned in any 1 specific instance.
- Mar 10, 2010
- 35,472
- 33,423
There is going to be outliers for sure. There is very large group of players that are kind of on the bubble and ”chance” becomes a factor. Is there a run on injuries above them at their position. When they get their shot do they get lucky and get a bit hot? We have had our players like Appleton, Copp, and Chiarot that were not high draft picks and managed to force their way onto the big club and carve out a role. Then we had the Niku’s and Petan’s and the KVes’s that have fallen way short of expectation. In some cases they just can’t seem to adapt their game to a lesser role at the NHL level.
This use to bother me more and now I am getting more at peace with it. I think our org does a pretty good job of development and some prospects just aren’t good enough to break through at the next level.
Just to add, if you read through the Bios on the hockey operations for the organization, it reads that Mike Keane has the emphasis on player evaluation and development on the Moose. If he is dedicating his after playing career to doing this I will trust that he is far better at it then any combination of HF Board posters.
- Jun 10, 2014
- 58,669
- 30,827
Yes, I am learning to be a little less enthusiastic about prospects who haven't proven themselves yet. Jets may not do development perfectly. It is possible that some of those flops might have made it if handled differently. But overall, I think they do pretty well.
We see potential in a player and when he doesn't fulfill that potential we tend to point the finger at the org when, in fact it is the player who failed.
I think sometimes we don't recognize when we need to transition a player during development. Petan and Roslo should have been working on a solid defensive game. The offensive skills are more natural they need to be good 2 way players so they can contribute to the bottom 6.
- Status
