Around the NHL 10 - 2022/23

[JetsFan815]

Ask a Sikh about marrying a Sikh woman...They will tell you it's forbidden...Maybe that changes over the years. But it hasn't. Maybe you found one, but there isn't many...As for the rest I just gave examples of religious exemption, and both religions do not allow homosexuality, as you just saw in the World Cup. I think you might be the ignorant one, when your argument is so thin.

"Forbidden" according to whom? You? There are tons of examples of intercultural relationships in that community, I gave you one from hockey despite there being almost no people from that community in hockey. There is no religious exemption for FGM in Canada or endorsement of the Sharia law which you mentioned in your last post. Many religions are bigoted against homosexuality, if a Sikh/Muslim player did the same thing as what Provorov did despite openly ignoring other parts of their religion, they'd get called out too.

 

[Buffdog]

Thing is Jet isn't the token gay guy that has all the answers, and shouldn't be made to come up with the ideas on how to make the sport more inclusive.

For your TL;DR, representation matters. Having a show of solidarity matters. The jerseys matter. They even auction them off for charitible donations afterwards. You Can Play is important to the league.

I was asking his opinion based on his experience. How you twisted that into "token gay guy finding all the answers" is beyond me.

The problems with virtue signaling are:

1. People think that by participating and feeling good about themselves for doing so, they convince themselves that they're making a difference when they're not and are less likely to participate in behaviors that will actually affect change (the equivalent to "thoughts and prayers")

And

2. They create backlash against anyone who doesn't go along with the virtue signaling process (which is ridiculous because of point #1l

 

[tbcwpg]

I was asking his opinion based on his experience. How you twisted that into "token gay guy finding all the answers" is beyond me.

The problems with virtue signaling are:

1. People think that by participating and feeling good about themselves for doing so, they convince themselves that they're making a difference when they're not and are less likely to participate in behaviors that will actually affect change (the equivalent to "thoughts and prayers")

And

2. They create backlash against anyone who doesn't go along with the virtue signaling process (which is ridiculous because of point #1l

All of this would be relevant if he had not said it was for religious reasons, but he did, so it's not.

 

[None]

Religion is how a lot of law was codified in our society, like it or not. If someone objects to homosexuality I think they have the same right as anyone else in society who doesn't agree with something on moral grounds.

If I had been born 125 years ago I wouldn't have the right to vote, so excuse me for pointing out the poor excuse of hiding behind the law for being an asshole to your fellow human. Laws can change, people don't choose who they're attracted to.

 

[voyageur]

If I had been born 125 years ago I wouldn't have the right to vote, so excuse me for pointing out the poor excuse of hiding behind the law for being an asshole to your fellow human. Laws can change, people don't choose who they're attracted to.

This is my last comment on this whole discussion. I don't want to get bogged down in it. And I have better things to do.

Provorov didn't say anything disparaging about gays, didn't condemn them or anything, he just he refuses to wear the jersey because it doesn't represent his values. Everything else said about him is hearsay or comes from a belief that you and others have.

If we are talking about assholes and the law, let me relate this story to you:

I was the captain of my hockey team. I drove my goalie home after one game, a metis man, after indulging in some cilantro with my teammates after the game. My friend wasn't one of them, because he was in a period in his life of absolutely sobriety...As I dropped him off in front of his house, the cops pulled up, got out of their car proceeded to pin him to the ground, and beat the shit out of him. Until I yelled at them. After which one cop came to my car, asked me about the person they were beating, and told me he looked like someone who had committed a crime in the neighbourhood. I explained where we were, vouched for him, and the cop instantly recognized I was stoned, but had no issue with me, on account of my race.

So I think there's a long way to go...and it's not in small gestures like jerseys that things are going to change...

 

[CorgisPer60]

Religion is the basis of morals and ethics, but it's all entirely relative, and man-made. Look at what happens in countries that have things called morality police. Religious, agnostic, or atheist, it's all derivative of man. Our need to believe in something greater than ourselves. Something to blame or celebrate. It's all it is. Hiding your bigotry behind religion is just you being bigoted for your own beliefs. You don't need a religious curtain to show that.

Provorov didn't say anything disparaging about gays, didn't condemn them or anything, he just he refuses to wear the jersey because it doesn't represent his values. Everything else said about him is hearsay or comes from a belief that you and others have.

I'm curious what his values would be then, if he didn't want to wear a shirt acknowledging that gay people exist.

 

[Mud Turtle]

So let’s turn this scenario around.
Let’s say that a Canadian hockey player who’s not quite good enough to play in the NHL goes to play in the KHL.
The KHL team decides to have a pre skate with jerseys supporting different causes each night.
Let’s say that this player’s more Liberal western values don’t fit well with some of those events.
Would you also criticize him for saying no to any of those events because of his “western values” or “morals”?

 

[Jets 31]

You don't choose your sexuality plain and simple so these people shouldn't be any different than anyone else. I have way more of a issue with religious people that preach all these different things you should and shouldn't do and then absolutely don't follow any of the things they preach themselves.

 

[Eyeseeing]

You don't choose your sexuality plain and simple so these people shouldn't be any different than anyone else. I have way more of an issue with religious people that preach all these different things you should and shouldn't do and then absolutely don't follow any of the things they preach themselves.

Provorov had his reasons and was respectful.
The inclusion people certainly weren’t.
Many people don’t support this because it’s in your face 365/24/7 and nothing at all to do with religion and everything to do with the demand to be respected.
Respect is earned, you live your way I live my way I can respect that.
Don’t demean or insist others who don’t endorse your cause.
Pretty simple, do unto others.

 

[tbcwpg]

So let’s turn this scenario around.
Let’s say that a Canadian hockey player who’s not quite good enough to play in the NHL goes to play in the KHL.
The KHL team decides to have a pre skate with jerseys supporting different causes each night.
Let’s say that this player’s more Liberal western values don’t fit well with some of those events.
Would you also criticize him for saying no to any of those events because of his “western values” or “morals”?

If those causes were exclusionary, then I'd have no problem with his refusal to do so. That's the difference here people aren't getting. Also, I'm not saying anyone on this board specifically believes this, but I see a lot of overlap of people upset that Provorov is getting grief over this but give athletes grief for taking a knee. Can you imagine if Nazem Kadri refused to wear a military jersey because of western military intervention in the Middle East?

The argument of "what about being inclusive of his beliefs?" is so backwards because it's defending a belief that LGBTQ+ people are living a deviant lifestyle, or shouldn't have the same rights as heterosexual. You're telling us to be inclusive of his belief that it's right to exclude people.

That's the difference your false equivalency falls on - Provorov is telling any LGBTQ+ hockey player that they aren't welcome on his team.

 

[Mud Turtle]

You don't choose your sexuality plain and simple so these people shouldn't be any different than anyone else. I have way more of a issue with religious people that preach all these different things you should and shouldn't do and then absolutely don't follow any of the things they preach themselves.

Religion is really just another word for “belief system”.
There are millions of belief systems out there. All a little bit different. We all have them.
Many people in the west have turned things like environmentalism into something very similar to a religion. It shapes their entire world view.
You don’t have to look any further than Davos this week to see the utter hypocrisy of the elites preaching about saving the planet as they fly there on their personal carbon spewing jets.
Hypocrisy is part of the human condition and is not exclusive to any group.

 

[CorgisPer60]

Provorov had his reasons and was respectful.
The inclusion people certainly weren’t.
Many people don’t support this because it’s in your face 365/24/7 and nothing at all to do with religion and everything to do with the demand to be respected.
Respect is earned, you live your way I live my way I can respect that.
Don’t demean or insist others who don’t endorse your cause.
Pretty simple, do unto others.

Allowing people to have the same rights and freedoms regardless of cultural identity and sexuality is hardly a demand to be respected. They are demanding the same thing everybody else has the freedom to deny access to.

 

[Finnflash]

Unless that group is Christians, right?

As a Christian I will respond to this.

Our only job is to love one another and spread the good news.

If we spent more time just showing love to each other rather than focusing political agendas we wouldn’t have these polarizing issue interfere with what we are supposed to be doing

 

[B33R LEAGUE]

Many of us have differing views on this issue, but at the end of the day, none of us are going to hold it against each other or hand out bans because we expressed opinions. Do I disagree with Provorov's decision, sure.

So let’s turn this scenario around.
Let’s say that a Canadian hockey player who’s not quite good enough to play in the NHL goes to play in the KHL.
The KHL team decides to have a pre skate with jerseys supporting different causes each night.
Let’s say that this player’s more Liberal western values don’t fit well with some of those events.
Would you also criticize him for saying no to any of those events because of his “western values” or “morals”?

Spot on. I thought this as well.

 

[Finnflash]

All of this would be relevant if he had not said it was for religious reasons, but he did, so it's not.

Right he did say that but Provorov isn’t the spokes person for Christianity. There is only one authority on that.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Allowing people to have the same rights and freedoms regardless of cultural identity and sexuality is hardly a demand to be respected. They are demanding the same thing everybody else has the freedom to deny access to.

They are allowed to do anything I could do…..tell me what they aren’t allowed? All people are protected and rightly so in our Charter of Rights.
Free country people are or should be free to do as they please including not wearing something they don’t want to, however the enlightenment crowd will not accept anything they don’t like to hear.

 

[CorgisPer60]

They are allowed to do anything I could do…..tell me what they aren’t allowed? All people are protected and rightly so in our Charter of Rights.
Free country people are or should be free to do as they please including not wearing something they don’t want to, however the enlightenment crowd will not accept anything they don’t like to hear.

Good thing this is Canada, where gay marriage is federally and provincially acknowledged and codified into law. Now we're talking about a Russian player, using Russian orthodoxy, playing in a US market where they don't have the same set of cultural freedoms, with a House and Senate that seems to want to roll back as many provisions as they can to be a regressive Church state. Look at Florida's don't say gay bullshit. Russia is even worse, which is the crux of this Russian orthodoxy bullshit.

 

[John Agar]

Good thing this is Canada, where gay marriage is federally and provincially acknowledged and codified into law. Now we're talking about a Russian player, using Russian orthodoxy, playing in a US market where they don't have the same set of cultural freedoms, with a House and Senate that seems to want to roll back as many provisions as they can to be a regressive Church state. Look at Florida's don't say gay bullshit. Russia is even worse, which is the crux of this Russian orthodoxy bullshit.

Provorov is a practicing Catholic first and foremost.

You are politicizing and being presumptive as to Provorov's motivations. Completely unfair and extremely biased on your part.

He chose to express his belief in his faith and respect it, nothing more.

If you don't like it too bad.

My faith guides me as well... and no one is going to make me go against my beliefs.

At the same time my faith compels me to forgive you Corgis'... and I do.

 

[Finnflash]

You know who the real enemy in all this is….. The leafs the Habs and Vegas. Some how I think they are behind all this argument

 

[Mud Turtle]

You know who the real enemy in all this is….. The leafs the Habs and Vegas. Some how I think they are behind all this argument

Nicely done Finnflash.

 

[CorgisPer60]

At the same time my faith compels me to forgive you Corgis'... and I do.

Funny, but I didn't do anything that would cause me to seek your forgiveness. How presumptuous of you to think that I do.

 

[SLAYER]

He chose to express his belief in his faith and respect it, nothing more.

If you don't like it too bad.

My faith guides me as well... and no one is going to make me go against my beliefs.

Which is fine and all, but no one has to respect anyone else's beliefs, especially if they are discriminatory based on race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

Choose to believe whatever you like, as long as it doesn't involve hurting/discriminating other people. However, if you choose to hold racist or bigoted beliefs and then hide behind your chosen religion, decent people aren't going to stand for it. There has been enough oppression and hate masquerading as religion to last a million lifetimes, I think we've had enough.

 

[CorgisPer60]

And now we see why politics and religion are banned from discussion in a sports forum. We've been dancing that line the entire time that it finally intersected with sports.

 

[Eyeseeing]

And now we see why politics and religion are banned from discussion in a sports forum. We've been dancing that line the entire time that it finally intersected with sports.

No it was a door opened and now you want it closed

 

[snowkiddin]

You know who the real enemy in all this is….. The leafs the Habs and Vegas. Some how I think they are behind all this argument

You’re forgetting the Oilers and Bettman, too!