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Around the NHL – Part XL - Mod post page 249

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Kane One said:
Lol what? You absolutely cannot, and I think he’s one of those legends like Babe Ruth that people say is the best (in Orr’s case, best at his position) just because people are used to saying it and hearing it for 50 years.
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I'll always choose Gretz, but Orr revolutionized the sport when he showed up. He has a case for best ever, IMO.
 
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Boris Zubov said:
This is homer bias here, hate to say it. Nobody in their right mind should choose Fox over Makar. Fox is better right now in his own end, but Makar's skating is the difference to me. He can learn to play defense better as his career progresses. Fox is who he is as a skater & that won't likely improve enough to bridge the gap between the two players.

We're lucky to have Fox, but Makar is the better player, IMO.
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Makar is a physical specimen, yes. But I'd rather have Fox, really. What Makar will never have is Fox's ability to make something out of nothing.
 
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CasusBelli said:
I’m saying you don’t usually see big shooters who don’t have huge upper bodies as well. Weber, Chara, Ovechkin, Burns, Laine, Malkin. All huge shooters and all big guys. Thinner big shooters like MSL, Bure and Karlsson have been much rarer. Not sure if Mika and Stammer are big guys — tall and lanky?


Why not?
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Because Gretzky > Orr. It won’t be worth the time arguing with anyone saying otherwise.
 
CasusBelli said:
I’m saying you don’t usually see big shooters who don’t have huge upper bodies as well. Weber, Chara, Ovechkin, Burns, Laine, Malkin. All huge shooters and all big guys. Thinner big shooters like MSL, Bure and Karlsson have been much rarer. Not sure if Mika and Stammer are big guys — tall and lanky?


Why not?
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Mika and Stamkos are not big. They're ectomorphs, especially Mika.
 
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Boris Zubov said:
This is homer bias here, hate to say it. Nobody in their right mind should choose Fox over Makar. Fox is better right now in his own end, but Makar's skating is the difference to me. He can learn to play defense better as his career progresses. Fox is who he is as a skater & that won't likely improve enough to bridge the gap between the two players.

We're lucky to have Fox, but Makar is the better player, IMO.
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He’s basically the new Karlsson.
 
Boris Zubov said:
I'll always choose Gretz, but Orr revolutionized the sport when he showed up. He has a case for best ever, IMO.
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I think this is exactly my point. Every time someone revolutionizes a sport, they are declared the best ever, when that’s a completely separate thing.

Plenty of goalies revolutionized and re-revolutionized how they play. No one says Plante is the best goalie ever as masks were revolutionary. And him wearing masks led to the rise of the butterfly style, which Roy revolutionized, and most people don’t say he’s the best goalie ever.
 
Now the question is, can the Avs do this Shesterkin or Vasilevsky and who is favored in the final? I think if it’s us COL will be favored but if it’s TBL they will be the favorite.
 
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So the Stanley cup final does not start until 6/18 roughly two weeks off for the Avs. Strong scheduling by the NHL
 
Makar is a phenom. Fox is also a phenom. I don't see either one as a tier above or below the other. People gawk at Makar because he's fast, but Fox just gets it done. Love Ryan Lindgren , but let's be honest about quality of teammates here too.
 
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Kane One said:
I think this is exactly my point. Every time someone revolutionizes a sport, they are declared the best ever, when that’s a completely separate thing.

Plenty of goalies revolutionized and re-revolutionized how they play. No one says Plante is the best goalie ever as masks were revolutionary. And him wearing masks led to the rise of the butterfly style, which Roy revolutionized, and most people don’t say he’s the best goalie ever.
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Fair enough, but Orr is a top 4 player of all time at worst depending how you rank them, so it's a little more nuanced than your example regarding goalies.
 
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CasusBelli said:
I just wonder how you can play defense without lats, shoulders, biceps or triceps. It’s almost like The Matrix: “you think that’s air you’re breathing?” … “you think those are your muscles you’re using?”
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For hockey players, it's all about leg strength. Being strong on your skates. And he certainly has that.

It's also the reason Kakko ends up on his ass all the time.
 
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KirkAlbuquerque said:
Leaps and bounds? Josi had 10 more points on a far worse team. Josi is mediocre defensively but offensively he’s the best. He had nearly 100 points ffs
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It's a shame when a player gets so pumped up that everybody has to hate him lol. Makar really is a fantastic player, but I don't see him as ahead of Fox or McAvoy for example. Hedman and Josi are still holding their own in their 30s.

Seriously, it's ridiculous how much Makar gets talked about only because Devon Toews is his freaking partner and nobody says a word about him. He's probably a top 10 defensemen in the world on his own.
 
Boris Zubov said:
Fair enough, but Orr is a top 4 player of all time at worst depending how you rank them, so it's a little more nuanced than your example regarding goalies.
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I can’t really say I can fairly rank any defenseman in any order since I didn’t watch players like Orr or Larry Robinson, and I’m not going to start comparing them by points or +/-. Since no one can compare unless you’ve actually watched them, Orr is stuck as the default GOAT defenseman, even though goalies played much differently, and Hull was the only player known for his slapshot.

But whatever, I’ll die on this hill as I know I have no real other candidate as best defenseman ever.
 
Kane One said:
I can’t really say I can fairly rank any defenseman in any order since I didn’t watch players like Orr or Larry Robinson, and I’m not going to start comparing them by points or +/-. Since no one can compare unless you’ve actually watched them, Orr is stuck as the default GOAT defenseman, even though goalies played much differently, and Hull was the only player known for his slapshot.

But whatever, I’ll die on this hill as I know I have no real other candidate as best defenseman ever.
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I wasn't talking about top 4 d-men of all time, I meant top 4 player of all time. Orr is #2 on my list...ahead of Mario.
 
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TheDirtyH said:
It's a shame when a player gets so pumped up that everybody has to hate him lol. Makar really is a fantastic player, but I don't see him as ahead of Fox or McAvoy for example. Hedman and Josi are still holding their own in their 30s.

Seriously, it's ridiculous how much Makar gets talked about only because Devon Toews is his freaking partner and nobody says a word about him. He's probably a top 10 defensemen in the world on his own.
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Defensemen also have different arches than forwards. Offensive defensemen seem to peak relatively early, likely due to their reliance on speed and agility, whereas two-way and defensive defensemen sometimes don’t peak until 30-33.
 
Boris Zubov said:
No...he isn't. Not by any metric or bullshit advanced stat.
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:/

what's your problem? Could just say 'I don't think McAvoy is in that tier' and responded to the actual point I made.

McAvoy is definitely among the very best defensemen in the league. Whether you look at stats or not. 10th in Norris voting two seasons ago. 5th a season ago. Likely will be right around 3-5 this year. You're out to lunch.
 
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