Around the League Thread part V

[Fishhead]

Damn Colorado and the way they ruin their prospects. I bet he didn't earn it by grinding, either.

It's pretty easy when you have an incredible team like that. Remember how Toffoli, Pearson, King, and even Nolan looked fantastic? Newhook was taken far earlier than any of those guys (sans Pearson).

 

[King'sPawn]

It's pretty easy when you have an incredible team like that. Remember how Toffoli, Pearson, King, and even Nolan looked fantastic? Newhook was taken far earlier than any of those guys (sans Pearson).

It's tongue in cheek at people saying that giving a 20 year-old more minutes will "ruin" him and that Kaliyev hasn't earned the minutes yet.

 

[Herby]

Damn Colorado and the way they ruin their prospects. I bet he didn't earn it by grinding, either.

I am at the point now where I'd like to see the entire scouting/development team changed up with the Kings and replaced by people from more successful organizations when it comes to evaluating and developing these players.

I don't know if they can't evaluate offensive talent, they can't properly develop it, or both. But right now it's just beyond frustrating to see where Turcotte and Vilardi in particular are in comparison to players taken around them. I know this will get the usual "It's to soon" or "Hindsight" type responses, but the Kings really needed to hit big on two of the four first round centers between 2017-2020 and right now it looks like its only going to be one guy with NHL star potential . I think QB is such a natural talent that he will end up being great regardless of what mistakes they make in his development (and there have been a couple), but I am worried about everyone else and if this will ever be figured out as long as Mark Yanetti and Nelson Emerson are still in their jobs. I love what they have done with the defenseman picks and the defenseman development but it's just tough to ignore how underwhelming some of our young scoring forwards have been. If other teams can have their guys in the NHL and producing, why can't the Kings?

 

[Reclamation Project]

I still have faith in Vilardi. Only 22 and over a PPG so far this season in Ontario. He's barely played a full season in the NHL split between 3 years. He needs to keep crushing it and get that confidence back. Doesn't belong anywhere near the NHL this season.

If this prospect pool doesn't pan out all this talk is meaningless because the Kings will be trash for at least 10 years.

 

[apocalypse]

It's pretty easy when you have an incredible team like that. Remember how Toffoli, Pearson, King, and even Nolan looked fantastic? Newhook was taken far earlier than any of those guys (sans Pearson).

See?

 

[Fishhead]

I am at the point now where I'd like to see the entire scouting/development team changed up with the Kings and replaced by people from more successful organizations when it comes to evaluating and developing these players.

I don't know if they can't evaluate offensive talent, they can't properly develop it, or both. But right now it's just beyond frustrating to see where Turcotte and Vilardi in particular are in comparison to players taken around them. I know this will get the usual "It's to soon" or "Hindsight" type responses, but the Kings really needed to hit big on two of the four first round centers between 2017-2020 and right now it looks like its only going to be one guy with NHL star potential . I think QB is such a natural talent that he will end up being great regardless of what mistakes they make in his development (and there have been a couple), but I am worried about everyone else and if this will ever be figured out as long as Mark Yanetti and Nelson Emerson are still in their jobs. I love what they have done with the defenseman picks and the defenseman development but it's just tough to ignore how underwhelming some of our young scoring forwards have been. If other teams can have their guys in the NHL and producing, why can't the Kings?

I'm all for this, but which organizations have been more successful at evaluating and developing players? TB for sure I think. Colorado has been good. Carolina as well. Almost everyone else has far more whiffs than hits.

Weird that you mention Vilardi, though. He's got a better .ppg than most of the forwards taken in the first round. Better than 6 of 8 of the forwards taken before him. And a lot of those guys have been up and down from the AHL as well. Turcotte I can see.

Also, from 2017-2020, which centers taken have star potential? I don't see many at all. If the Kings truly have one of them they've done a really good job.

I don't really disagree with your premises, the Kings could always be better at drafting/development, especially at forward. But I think what you miss is there aren't many other teams that do better, and even with their shortcomings they're probably top 10.

 

[All The Kings Men]

 

[Herby]

I'm all for this, but which organizations have been more successful at evaluating and developing players? TB for sure I think. Colorado has been good. Carolina as well. Almost everyone else has far more whiffs than hits.

Weird that you mention Vilardi, though. He's got a better .ppg than most of the forwards taken in the first round. Better than 6 of 8 of the forwards taken before him. And a lot of those guys have been up and down from the AHL as well. Turcotte I can see.

Also, from 2017-2020, which centers taken have star potential? I don't see many at all. If the Kings truly have one of them they've done a really good job.

I don't really disagree with your premises, the Kings could always be better at drafting/development, especially at forward. But I think what you miss is there aren't many other teams that do better, and even with their shortcomings they're probably top 10.

I don't know how they are Top 10 when they haven't drafted and developed a legit 1st line player in as long as they have. Mark Yanetti has been the Kings directer of scouting for 15 years now, who are his 3 best forward picks in that time? And compare those players to other teams. I know people always used the excuse "well they were trying to win and never had high picks", well they had pretty high picks in 2017 and 2019 and both those players are in the minor leagues and now appear to be switching positions from what they were drafted. With the players they passed up on it can't be argued that there weren't NHL scorers available.

In 2017 the Kings took Vilardi at 11, the next four forwards taken are all scoring line players in the NHL while GV is in the minors. In 2019 there are clearly looking like a couple of star players in Seider and Zegras and even a guy like Cozens is on pace to score 20+ goals taken with picks right after the Kings. People can scream "hindsight" as much as they want, but this has been a trend with this scouting team led by Yanetti for quite some time. The consensus here seems to be to blame development, or more lately the NHL head-coach, but I don't know, I think its a deeper problem for the Kings when it comes to drafting and developing scorers. I am not excusing the mistakes made by Blake, they have certainly contributed to these issues, especially in the case of Turcotte. But the Kings have passed up on a lot of talented scorers under this scouting team, its no wonder the problems scoring continue to show through at the NHL level. They do a wonderful job with other areas of evaluation and development but its going to be tough to build a contender with such a lack of high-end scorers.

 

[LAKings88]

I don't know how they are Top 10 when they haven't drafted and developed a legit 1st line player in as long as they have. Mark Yanetti has been the Kings directer of scouting for 15 years now, who are his 3 best forward picks in that time? And compare those players to other teams. I know people always used the excuse "well they were trying to win and never had high picks", well they had pretty high picks in 2017 and 2019 and both those players are in the minor leagues and now appear to be switching positions from what they were drafted. With the players they passed up on it can't be argued that there weren't NHL scorers available.

In 2017 the Kings took Vilardi at 11, the next four forwards taken are all scoring line players in the NHL while GV is in the minors. In 2019 there are clearly looking like a couple of star players in Seider and Zegras and even a guy like Cozens is on pace to score 20+ goals taken with picks right after the Kings. People can scream "hindsight" as much as they want, but this has been a trend with this scouting team led by Yanetti for quite some time. The consensus here seems to be to blame development, or more lately the NHL head-coach, but I don't know, I think its a deeper problem for the Kings when it comes to drafting and developing scorers. I am not excusing the mistakes made by Blake, they have certainly contributed to these issues, especially in the case of Turcotte. But the Kings have passed up on a lot of talented scorers under this scouting team, its no wonder the problems scoring continue to show through at the NHL level. They do a wonderful job with other areas of evaluation and development but its going to be tough to build a contender with such a lack of high-end scorers.

I still think we need to see what happens to:

Vilardi
Kupari
Fagemo
Chromiak
Helenius
Turcotte
Thomas
JAD
Pinielli
Byfield

The development crew has not had this level of talent to work with before.

a bit different from:

Amadio
Shore
Weal
Kozun
Dowd
Wagner
Luff

But again, in a year sorta exceeding expectations, a coach is always gonna rely on vets unless wowed by a rookie. It’s the same arguments complaints all day every day.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

I don't know how they are Top 10 when they haven't drafted and developed a legit 1st line player in as long as they have. Mark Yanetti has been the Kings directer of scouting for 15 years now, who are his 3 best forward picks in that time? And compare those players to other teams. I know people always used the excuse "well they were trying to win and never had high picks", well they had pretty high picks in 2017 and 2019 and both those players are in the minor leagues and now appear to be switching positions from what they were drafted. With the players they passed up on it can't be argued that there weren't NHL scorers available.

I'm not sure it's fair solely to judge Yannetti over the course of his entire tenure regarding forwards drafted. Listening to any of the past several interviews he's done with Hoven it's very apparent the Kings have changed their drafting strategy under Blake as far as it relates to the skill sets they look for in players. 5 years is generally considered a realistic timeline to judge returns from a draft and we'll be at exactly 5 years at the end of this season since Blake's regime implemented its drafting strategy (not to mention the interruptions to player development caused by Covid).

Vilardi isn't even a bust yet. He's a .44 point-per-game player between his age 20-22 seasons in the NHL (even including the rough start the entire team had this season), and he's a 1 point-per-game player in the AHL this season. Arguably, he was unfairly banished to the AHL after the entire team was shit for the first 6 or 7 games yet he's done nothing but score since being down there.

 

[Herby]

I still think we need to see what happens to:

Vilardi
Kupari
Fagemo
Chromiak
Helenius
Turcotte
Thomas
JAD
Pinielli
Byfield

The development crew has not had this level of talent to work with before.

a bit different from:

Amadio
Shore
Weal
Kozun
Dowd
Wagner
Luff

But again, in a year sorta exceeding expectations, a coach is always gonna rely on vets unless wowed by a rookie. It’s the same arguments complaints all day every day.

The problem is, a few of these guys you listed have already had mistakes with their development that have likely caused damage to the long-term. So it's tough to think the ones who haven't will be flawlessly developed by these guys.

As for TM, I agree with you, he has done exactly what was asked of him going into the season. With the moves Blake made this summer the goal was to compete for a playoff spot, and right now the Kings are a playoff team. A coach trying to make the playoffs is always going to lean on veterans, especially when none of the young players have really wow'ed when they have been up. Is it the best path for developing the Kings young players who are NHL players or close to NHL players? No, but again that wasn't what he was told to do this season. If you don't like the usage of young players the blame should be on Blake, not TM. I am quite surprised how negative people feel about TM with where the team currently sits in the standings.

I'm not sure it's fair solely to judge Yannetti over the course of his entire tenure regarding forwards drafted. Listening to any of the past several interviews he's done with Hoven it's very apparent the Kings have changed their drafting strategy under Blake as far as it relates to the skill sets they look for in players. 5 years is generally considered a realistic timeline to judge returns from a draft and we'll be at exactly 5 years at the end of this season since Blake's regime implemented its drafting strategy (not to mention the interruptions to player development caused by Covid).

Vilardi isn't even a bust yet. He's a .44 point-per-game player between his age 20-22 seasons in the NHL (even including the rough start the entire team had this season), and he's a 1 point-per-game player in the AHL this season. Arguably, he was unfairly banished to the AHL after the entire team was shit for the first 6 or 7 games yet he's done nothing but score since being down there.

Yannetti can say they have changed the philosophy and maybe they have, but it's tough not to look at 2017 and 2019 and be disappointed with the current results. I also don't think it takes 5 years to evaluate a draft, not when so many other teams are getting returns already much sooner from those drafts. Gabe is in the AHL in his D+5 and players the Kings passed over for him are contributing as scorers in the NHL. Being a point per-per-game player in the AHL for a high first round pick at age 22 is nothing to write home about, it's just not. If someone had told us when he was drafted that in January 2022 he'd be in the AHL we'd all say it was disappointing. I don't question Vilardi's skill, but he's not skilled enough to overcome his skating and complete lack of any kind of two-way game for a team that is trying to make the playoffs. That is why he isn't up, not because of how the team started out early in the year. They gave him an ample chance to succeed by gift wrapping him a top-six role last season in a throw away year and he just wasn't good enough, and those concerns (especially skating) were validated. If we make excuses passing on players who are more skilled for reasons like size, toughness and lack of two-way play it's fair to question why Gabe's skating wasn't more of a concern before he was drafted.

Every team in the NHL had to deal with Covid yet many of them are getting anywhere from decent to star production from players that the Kings decided not to draft since this shift in drafting strategy.

I just don't know why other teams can get production at the NHL level from players the same age, but the Kings it's always "Let's be Patient".

 

[LAKings88]

The problem is, a few of these guys you listed have already had mistakes with their development that have likely caused damage to the long-term. So it's tough to think the ones who haven't will be flawlessly developed by these guys.

As for TM, I agree with you, he has done exactly what was asked of him going into the season. With the moves Blake made this summer the goal was to compete for a playoff spot, and right now the Kings are a playoff team. A coach trying to make the playoffs is always going to lean on veterans, especially when none of the young players have really wow'ed when they have been up. Is it the best path for developing the Kings young players who are NHL players or close to NHL players? No, but again that wasn't what he was told to do this season. If you don't like the usage of young players the blame should be on Blake, not TM. I am quite surprised how negative people feel about TM with where the team currently sits in the standings.



Yannetti can say they have changed the philosophy and maybe they have, but it's tough not to look at 2017 and 2019 and be disappointed with the current results. I also don't think it takes 5 years to evaluate a draft, not when so many other teams are getting returns already much sooner from those drafts. Gabe is in the AHL in his D+5 and players the Kings passed over for him are contributing as scorers in the NHL. Being a point per-per-game player in the AHL for a high first round pick at age 22 is nothing to write home about, it's just not. If someone had told us when he was drafted that in January 2022 he'd be in the AHL we'd all say it was disappointing. I don't question Vilardi's skill, but he's not skilled enough to overcome his skating and complete lack of any kind of two-way game for a team that is trying to make the playoffs. That is why he isn't up, not because of how the team started out early in the year. They gave him an ample chance to succeed by gift wrapping him a top-six role last season in a throw away year and he just wasn't good enough, and those concerns (especially skating) were validated. If we make excuses passing on players who are more skilled for reasons like size, toughness and lack of two-way play it's fair to question why Gabe's skating wasn't more of a concern before he was drafted.

Every team in the NHL had to deal with Covid yet many of them are getting anywhere from decent to star production from players that the Kings decided not to draft since this shift in drafting strategy.

I just don't know why other teams can get production at the NHL level from players the same age, but the Kings it's always "Let's be Patient".

Suzuki and Necas were at that spot but I know many of us were happy Gabe fell.

Gabe also has developed with a wiped out injury season, and two Covid seasons. Yes everyone is affected by Covid but I can’t say it hasn’t played a part either. It’s make or break now tho. Spots are hard to come by and I’d say Lizotte has earned a new contract too. Gabe needs to be a scoring winger now.

 

[King'sPawn]

I'm not using the Vilardi pick as evidence of poor scouting. He had an unusual set of health circumstances where his development has been delayed.

His skillset is unquestionable.

The bigger question of development is what roles do players drafted out of the first round develop into? Most first rounders have several skills that are NHL translatable. That's why they're first rounders.

If you're not NHL ready at the time of the draft, and you have a few holes in your game that the development team corrects to turn you into a scoring threat, that says more about the development team.

Like, is anyone really impressed with Edmonton's body of work, using Draisaitl and McDavid as evidence? I just don't think crediting a team with development and using the best sample while ignoring the rest of the body of work isn't a valid form of analysis.

 

[All The Kings Men]

Well I feel like trotting out my old argument again...

I know people always used the excuse "well they were trying to win and never had high picks", well t

It's not that they couldn't have or didn't draft/develop forwards... its that they

- had most of their top 6 spots full from like 2007 to 2020

BECAUSE they

- constantly imported veterans to fill top 6 spots

AND they

- had a philosophy that leaned heavily on defense and physicality

Kopitar has been 1C since the day he got here
Brown has been 1W for most of his career

from 2008 to 2020 they've cycled through guys like Penner, Smyth, Williams, Richards, Carter, Gaborik, Lucic, Kovalchuk, Gagne, Iginla, and even Lecavalier

meanwhile... when it comes to "top 6 forwards" they

drafted and traded Schenn & Simmonds
drafted and retained Toffoli, Pearson & Kempe

and if you're looking at value for 1st and 2nd round picks...

Lewis and Clifford are both in the Top 10 in games played in Kings history


AND they won the Cup twice and had three straight seasons in the Western Conference Final BECAUSE of their organizational strategy

 

[ru4reals]

Delete.

 

[Herby]

Well I feel like trotting out my old argument again...



It's not that they couldn't have or didn't draft/develop forwards... its that they

- had most of their top 6 spots full from like 2007 to 2020

BECAUSE they

- constantly imported veterans to fill top 6 spots

AND they

- had a philosophy that leaned heavily on defense and physicality

Kopitar has been 1C since the day he got here
Brown has been 1W for most of his career

from 2008 to 2020 they've cycled through guys like Penner, Smyth, Williams, Richards, Carter, Gaborik, Lucic, Kovalchuk, Gagne, Iginla, and even Lecavalier

meanwhile... when it comes to "top 6 forwards" they

drafted and traded Schenn & Simmonds
drafted and retained Toffoli, Pearson & Kempe

and if you're looking at value for 1st and 2nd round picks...

Lewis and Clifford are both in the Top 10 in games played in Kings history


AND they won the Cup twice and had three straight seasons in the Western Conference Final BECAUSE of their organizational strategy

They didn't win cups BECAUSE they inherited 2 Hall of Fame Players from the previous management team and then drafted another one in their third draft in charge?

There was no room for Top 6 players on the LA Kings since the 2nd cup win? The organization has one playoff win in that time and has finished 20th, 14th, 26th, 17th, 30th, 30th, 27th and 17th in goals-for. Both years they won Stanley Cups they had to trade for veteran scorers at the deadline because they couldn't develop their own Top 6 players, and you are saying that is because players were blocked. Iginla, Lecavalier, Gagne, Kovalchuk? You can't possibly be serious.

No openings? How was Gabe Vilardi able to be a Top 6 forward for all of last season? Do you know how awful the top-6 forwards outside of 11 have been the last few years?

Never said they couldn't develop players like Lewis and Clifford, they have been excellent at developing players like that.

 

[Steve Zissou]

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Martin 'f*** your stick' Necas

very nice

 

[FrozenKing18]

Man, I haven’t seen smooth deking like that since Datsyuk

 

[lumbergh]

can they start an EBUG?

David Ayers might be available.

 

[AbsentMojo]

on a similar note:

 

[All The Kings Men]

They didn't win cups BECAUSE they inherited 2 Hall of Fame Players from the previous management team and then drafted another one in their third draft in charge?

I'm not addressing why they won or if they won.

I'm addressing what their actual strategy was since it seems to me that they're being criticized for doing something poorly when I feel like they were specifically not trying to do that thing at all.

There was no room for Top 6 players on the LA Kings since the 2nd cup win? The organization has one playoff win in that time and has finished 20th, 14th, 26th, 17th, 30th, 30th, 27th and 17th in goals-for. Both years they won Stanley Cups they had to trade for veteran scorers at the deadline because they couldn't develop their own Top 6 players, and you are saying that is because players were blocked. Iginla, Lecavalier, Gagne, Kovalchuk? You can't possibly be serious.

Let's establish different periods of time

Lombardi inherited Kopitar, Brown, Frolov and Cammalleri and went on to draft Simmonds, Schenn, Lewis, Clifford, Toffoli, Moller and acquired O'Sullivan, Purcell, Richardson (2nd round Pick)

From the summer of 2006 to the summer of 2011, BEFORE they won the Cup, Lombari brought in

Penner, Williams, Smyth, Richards, Gagne, Stoll, Handzus, Ponikarovsky

485 games of Brown
475 games of Kopitar
327 games of Handzus
311 games of Frolov
307 games of Stoll
240 games of Simmonds
216 games of Williams
188 games of O'Sullivan
149 games of Smyth
144 games of Cammalleri
84 games of Penner
74 games of Richards
61 games Ponikarovsky

From 2012 - 2014 they won while adding to the top 6

two players they scouted, drafted and developed (Toffoli/Pearson)
another player acquired in a trade (Gaborik)

For the 3 seasons (246 games) between winning the Cup and Lombardi being fired (2014-15 to 16-17)

Cup winners (8 of them!) in italics

244 games of Brown
241 games of Carter
236 games of Kopitar
221 games of Toffoli
201 games of Pearson
179 games of Gaborik
81 games of Williams
81 games of Lucic
53 games of Richards
42 games of Lecavalier
19 games of Iginla

While getting 200+ games from Lewis/Clifford, 150+ from King/Nolan/Shore

Summer of 2017 to summer of 2019 (164 games) first two seasons of Blake's tenure

164 games of Toffoli
163 games of Kopitar
162 games of Kempe
157 games of Iafallo
153 games of Brown
103 games of Carter
99 games of Pearson
64 games of Kovalchuk
30 games of Gaborik

I'm not arguing that they could or couldn't have done a better job of scouting, drafting and developing forwards I'm suggesting it wasn't a priority and they should be judged for what they were actually trying to do (win the Cup) and not what we may wish they had been doing (remaining competitive while simultaneously preparing for the future by creating a diverse and stable pool of prospects at every position).

From day one they were looking for the right combination of players to surround their core players with and they weren't interested in waiting to "develop" "better" players. They wanted to escalate the timeline for Cup contention and it worked. They traded players and picks to acquire those players. Some of the trades were great (Carter) some of them were less great (Penner/Lucic) but the end result is they had fewer 1st round picks from 2011-2016 and continued focusing on drafting D with all 4 of their 2nd round picks from 2014-2016

No openings? How was Gabe Vilardi able to be a Top 6 forward for all of last season? Do you know how awful the top-6 forwards outside of 11 have been the last few years?

The strategy shifted in 2017 (the summer JAD/Vilardi were drafted) and changed even more in 2019 when Todd was hired.

The strategy is STILL somewhat focused on relying on veterans over younger players which is why we're seeing Danault, Arvidsson, Athanasiou, Moore, Iafallo etc brought in to play "Top 9" minutes over "prospects" but they have at least held onto their draft picks and prospects since 2017 so now they actually appear to have that stable and diverse prospect pool with players at every position to theoretically replace those veterans when they ultimately leave the team.



I didn't know where to put this info but if Penner and Gagne had matched expectations, they might not have needed to trade for Carter and Gaborik but they didn't and the end result was still winning the Cup twice so I'm not prepared to question their moves or strategy.


BUT IN SUMMARY

They had
Brown for like 17 seasons
Kopitar for 16 seasons
Carter for 9 seasons
Williams for 6 seasons
Toffoli for 7 seasons
Pearson for 5 seasons

With a rotating cast of Smyth, Lucic, Penner, Gaborik, Kovalchuk,

Like... WHERE would these imaginary prospects that they just couldn't find or couldn't develop even play? They would have to have proven them selves to be BETTER than a bunch of dudes slated for the Hall of Fame or with their names on the Stanley Cup.

I have written far too much and lost the thread multiple times... so I guess I'm done?

But thanks to everybody for giving me an excuse to do this again.

 

[Herby]

I'm not addressing why they won or if they won.

I'm addressing what their actual strategy was since it seems to me that they're being criticized for doing something poorly when I feel like they were specifically not trying to do that thing at all.



Let's establish different periods of time

Lombardi inherited Kopitar, Brown, Frolov and Cammalleri and went on to draft Simmonds, Schenn, Lewis, Clifford, Toffoli, Moller and acquired O'Sullivan, Purcell, Richardson (2nd round Pick)

From the summer of 2006 to the summer of 2011, BEFORE they won the Cup, Lombari brought in

Penner, Williams, Smyth, Richards, Gagne, Stoll, Handzus, Ponikarovsky

485 games of Brown
475 games of Kopitar
327 games of Handzus
311 games of Frolov
307 games of Stoll
240 games of Simmonds
216 games of Williams
188 games of O'Sullivan
149 games of Smyth
144 games of Cammalleri
84 games of Penner
74 games of Richards
61 games Ponikarovsky

From 2012 - 2014 they won while adding to the top 6

two players they scouted, drafted and developed (Toffoli/Pearson)
another player acquired in a trade (Gaborik)

For the 3 seasons (246 games) between winning the Cup and Lombardi being fired (2014-15 to 16-17)

Cup winners (8 of them!) in italics

244 games of Brown
241 games of Carter
236 games of Kopitar
221 games of Toffoli
201 games of Pearson
179 games of Gaborik
81 games of Williams
81 games of Lucic
53 games of Richards
42 games of Lecavalier
19 games of Iginla

While getting 200+ games from Lewis/Clifford, 150+ from King/Nolan/Shore

Summer of 2017 to summer of 2019 (164 games) first two seasons of Blake's tenure

164 games of Toffoli
163 games of Kopitar
162 games of Kempe
157 games of Iafallo
153 games of Brown
103 games of Carter
99 games of Pearson
64 games of Kovalchuk
30 games of Gaborik

I'm not arguing that they could or couldn't have done a better job of scouting, drafting and developing forwards I'm suggesting it wasn't a priority and they should be judged for what they were actually trying to do (win the Cup) and not what we may wish they had been doing (remaining competitive while simultaneously preparing for the future by creating a diverse and stable pool of prospects at every position).

From day one they were looking for the right combination of players to surround their core players with and they weren't interested in waiting to "develop" "better" players. They wanted to escalate the timeline for Cup contention and it worked. They traded players and picks to acquire those players. Some of the trades were great (Carter) some of them were less great (Penner/Lucic) but the end result is they had fewer 1st round picks from 2011-2016 and continued focusing on drafting D with all 4 of their 2nd round picks from 2014-2016



The strategy shifted in 2017 (the summer JAD/Vilardi were drafted) and changed even more in 2019 when Todd was hired.

The strategy is STILL somewhat focused on relying on veterans over younger players which is why we're seeing Danault, Arvidsson, Athanasiou, Moore, Iafallo etc brought in to play "Top 9" minutes over "prospects" but they have at least held onto their draft picks and prospects since 2017 so now they actually appear to have that stable and diverse prospect pool with players at every position to theoretically replace those veterans when they ultimately leave the team.



I didn't know where to put this info but if Penner and Gagne had matched expectations, they might not have needed to trade for Carter and Gaborik but they didn't and the end result was still winning the Cup twice so I'm not prepared to question their moves or strategy.


BUT IN SUMMARY

They had
Brown for like 17 seasons
Kopitar for 16 seasons
Carter for 9 seasons
Williams for 6 seasons
Toffoli for 7 seasons
Pearson for 5 seasons

With a rotating cast of Smyth, Lucic, Penner, Gaborik, Kovalchuk,

Like... WHERE would these imaginary prospects that they just couldn't find or couldn't develop even play? They would have to have proven them selves to be BETTER than a bunch of dudes slated for the Hall of Fame or with their names on the Stanley Cup.

I have written far too much and lost the thread multiple times... so I guess I'm done?

But thanks to everybody for giving me an excuse to do this again.

Excuse to do what? Come on here and make an arrogant ending to the post like you are giving groundbreaking expert factual takes to a bunch of morons? Thank you so much for that contribution to us peons, so disappointing we apparently won't have to hear it again.

Many of the players you list in their time with the Kings they weren't even productive top 6 players. Since the Kings 2nd cup win Brown has failed to reach 40 points 5 times. He has been a productive top 6 player twice in 8 seasons since the Kings won their 2nd cup. Justin Williams left after the 2015 season, this is the 7th season for the Kings since he left. Jarome Iginla played 19 games for the Kings at the end of a lost season before retiring from the NHL, Vincent Lecavalier played a bottom six role for the Kings for half a season before retiring from the league. Ilya Kovalchuk played parts of 2 seasons with the Kings, most of which was spent in and out of the doghouse. These are the reasons Mark Yannetti can't evaluate and the volleyball crew can't develop high-end scorers. Really?

The Kings have been one of the worst scoring teams in the NHL (maybe even the worst, I'd have to look it up) since the cup years and you are talking about the lack of talent development in that time is because players were blocked by good veteran players? That is just factually incorrect. What player in that time frame that was blocked from making the lineup? You think other teams don't have established veterans in their lineup, they all do. They just draft and develop young players that force them out. The Kings as of now have not had anyone do that. Just absolutely incredible someone is claiming the corpses of Lecavalier, Igina and Gaborik were the reason that the Kings couldn't draft or develop anyone. Marian Gaborik had 57 points in his final 3 seasons with the Kings, he wasn't even in the lineup for many of the nights, missing over 50 games in that time frame.

And even if you break it down into the post Blake era where you say there was some kind of philosophical change in the evaluation . The 2017 draft saw the Kings take Gabe Vilardi who is currently in the AHL while the next 4 forwards taken were Necas, Suzuki, Norris and Thomas. They are all top 6 forwards in the NHL. We can't be critical and ask questions as to why that is? Gabe Vilardi wasn't blocked, he was given a top 6 role last season in a no-pressure rebuild year and fell off a cliff in the 2nd half. He just wasn't good enough, not because he didn't have the opportunity. Are we supposed to believe that if a "mythical" prospect like Zegras or Suzuki had been drafted by the Kings that they wouldn't have been given the same opportunity that Vilarid was last season? Even this season, the Kings have Trevor Moore and Philip Danault in scoring line roles, but we are supposed to believe that the Kings don't have room for young prospects to break into the top 6?

Alex Turcotte was drafted 5th overall from the NTDP. Alex Turcotte has 3 goals and 11 points in 20 AHL games. The next pick was the likely Calder trophy winner in the NHL and 4 picks later our rivals took a player from the same junior team who is currently on pace for a 65 point season in the NHL at age 20. So since your supposed philosophical change we have missed out on impact young scorers by taking the wrong guys in 2 of the 3 drafts that we had high picks? But it's unfair to question Mark Yannetti and Rob Blake? I won't say anything on QB vs Raymond or Stutzle because QB has an incredible ceiling but is in the hands of an organization with no idea what they are doing when it comes to developing someone like him that it could sadly be 3 of 3 drafts. Or is your defense going to be the same lame one used around here that Zegras, Raymond, Norris etc. would be playing in Ontario if they had been taken by the Kings.

 

[King'sPawn]

I'm not addressing why they won or if they won.

I'm addressing what their actual strategy was since it seems to me that they're being criticized for doing something poorly when I feel like they were specifically not trying to do that thing at all.



Let's establish different periods of time

Lombardi inherited Kopitar, Brown, Frolov and Cammalleri and went on to draft Simmonds, Schenn, Lewis, Clifford, Toffoli, Moller and acquired O'Sullivan, Purcell, Richardson (2nd round Pick)

From the summer of 2006 to the summer of 2011, BEFORE they won the Cup, Lombari brought in

Penner, Williams, Smyth, Richards, Gagne, Stoll, Handzus, Ponikarovsky

485 games of Brown
475 games of Kopitar
327 games of Handzus
311 games of Frolov
307 games of Stoll
240 games of Simmonds
216 games of Williams
188 games of O'Sullivan
149 games of Smyth
144 games of Cammalleri
84 games of Penner
74 games of Richards
61 games Ponikarovsky

From 2012 - 2014 they won while adding to the top 6

two players they scouted, drafted and developed (Toffoli/Pearson)
another player acquired in a trade (Gaborik)

For the 3 seasons (246 games) between winning the Cup and Lombardi being fired (2014-15 to 16-17)

Cup winners (8 of them!) in italics

244 games of Brown
241 games of Carter
236 games of Kopitar
221 games of Toffoli
201 games of Pearson
179 games of Gaborik
81 games of Williams
81 games of Lucic
53 games of Richards
42 games of Lecavalier
19 games of Iginla

While getting 200+ games from Lewis/Clifford, 150+ from King/Nolan/Shore

Summer of 2017 to summer of 2019 (164 games) first two seasons of Blake's tenure

164 games of Toffoli
163 games of Kopitar
162 games of Kempe
157 games of Iafallo
153 games of Brown
103 games of Carter
99 games of Pearson
64 games of Kovalchuk
30 games of Gaborik

I'm not arguing that they could or couldn't have done a better job of scouting, drafting and developing forwards I'm suggesting it wasn't a priority and they should be judged for what they were actually trying to do (win the Cup) and not what we may wish they had been doing (remaining competitive while simultaneously preparing for the future by creating a diverse and stable pool of prospects at every position).

From day one they were looking for the right combination of players to surround their core players with and they weren't interested in waiting to "develop" "better" players. They wanted to escalate the timeline for Cup contention and it worked. They traded players and picks to acquire those players. Some of the trades were great (Carter) some of them were less great (Penner/Lucic) but the end result is they had fewer 1st round picks from 2011-2016 and continued focusing on drafting D with all 4 of their 2nd round picks from 2014-2016



The strategy shifted in 2017 (the summer JAD/Vilardi were drafted) and changed even more in 2019 when Todd was hired.

The strategy is STILL somewhat focused on relying on veterans over younger players which is why we're seeing Danault, Arvidsson, Athanasiou, Moore, Iafallo etc brought in to play "Top 9" minutes over "prospects" but they have at least held onto their draft picks and prospects since 2017 so now they actually appear to have that stable and diverse prospect pool with players at every position to theoretically replace those veterans when they ultimately leave the team.



I didn't know where to put this info but if Penner and Gagne had matched expectations, they might not have needed to trade for Carter and Gaborik but they didn't and the end result was still winning the Cup twice so I'm not prepared to question their moves or strategy.


BUT IN SUMMARY

They had
Brown for like 17 seasons
Kopitar for 16 seasons
Carter for 9 seasons
Williams for 6 seasons
Toffoli for 7 seasons
Pearson for 5 seasons

With a rotating cast of Smyth, Lucic, Penner, Gaborik, Kovalchuk,

Like... WHERE would these imaginary prospects that they just couldn't find or couldn't develop even play? They would have to have proven them selves to be BETTER than a bunch of dudes slated for the Hall of Fame or with their names on the Stanley Cup.

I have written far too much and lost the thread multiple times... so I guess I'm done?

But thanks to everybody for giving me an excuse to do this again.

That's the whole point - the prospects have to be developed to be better than the forwards. They need to do a better job to develop top-six forwards with later/non-first round picks where they push the vets out of the lineup.

Making Carter a tradeable asset in his mid-30s and FINALLY pushing Brown to the bottom-six at the age of 37 is not a viable system. Here are active high scorers from different teams NOT taken in the first:

Anaheim - Troy Terry (5th round)
Boston - Marchand (3rd round), Bergeron (2nd)
Buffalo - Olofsson (7th round)
Calgary - Gaudreau (4th)
Carolina - Aho (2nd)
Chicago - Debrincat (2nd)
Columbus - Jenner (2nd)
Dallas - Robertson (2nd), Hintz (3rd)
Detroit - Bertuzzi (2nd)
Minnesota - Kaprizov (5th)
Montreal - Lehkonen (2nd)
Nashville - Sissons (2nd)
New Jersey - Bratt (6th)
Ottawa - Batherson (4th)
Pittsburgh - Guentzel (3rd), Rust (3rd) let's also recognize they've won the cup AFTER the Kings
St Louis - Kyrou (2nd) let's also recognize they've won the cup AFTER the Kings
Tampa Bay - Killorn (3rd), Palat (7th), Point (3rd), Cirelli (3rd) let's also recognize they've won the cup AFTER the Kings
Winnipeg - Copp (4th)

So, over half the teams, including a few of the more recent cup winners, have homegrown talent in the top-6 of scoring for their respective teams, drafted outside of the first round.

Just because they were focused on defense doesn't mean they were blocked from developing a top-6 forward that fits on the team.

 

[All The Kings Men]

Excuse to do what, spew nonsense? Then come on here and make an arrogant ending to the post like you are giving groundbreaking expert factual takes to a bunch of morons? Thank you so much for that contribution, sso disappointing we apparently won't have to hear it again.

Clearly I failed in my attempt... what I was trying to say was

I used to post on message boards all the time and get involved in long drawn out fights about all sorts of stuff. I loved it. I can't really do it as much as I used to and part of me misses it. So this thread is an opportunity to do it because it allows me to talk about the past instead of commenting too heavily on the present.

I was trying to concede that it was way too much information/opinion delivered in a convoluted fashion and shouldn't be taken that seriously but evidently I did a bad job... apologies.

Many of the players you list in their time with the Kings they weren't even productive top 6 players. Since the Kings 2nd cup win Brown has failed to reach 40 points 5 times. He has been a productive top 6 player twice in 8 seasons since the Kings won their 2nd cup. Justin Williams left after the 2015 season, this is the 7th season for the Kings since he left. Jarome Iginla played 19 games for the Kings at the end of a lost season before retiring from the NHL, Vincent Lecavalier played a bottom six role for the Kings for half a season before retiring from the league. Ilya Kovalchuk played parts of 2 seasons with the Kings, most of which was spent in and out of the doghouse. These are the reasons Mark Yannetti can't evaluate and the volleyball crew can't develop high-end scorers. Really?

that's not why they couldn't/can't valuate/develop highly skilled young forwards to replace the veterans...
it's why I think they weren't attempting to do it

I wasn't addressing the success of the players or the relative fit for their roles. Brown for example was moved off of the top line for a few seasons under Sutter but rejoined it once Sutter was gone. Even in the seasons where he played fewer games with Kopitar he still played a significant amount of his time (33%ish) with Kopitar.

I listed 11 players over that three season stretch to demonstrate my belief that while no single player was "blocking" any prospect... the organization was using a rotating cast of veterans to fill out the roster rather than seeking to give younger players opportunities to "develop" into the kinds of players they would need. Additionally they weren't drafting for those "kinds" of players because they were using those assets to acquire the veterans they wanted.

Iginla played 19 games at the end of a season where they missed the playoffs. If they had been focusing on "developing" younger players those games might have been used to either audition a prospect or to experiment with Toffoli on the top line to see if perhaps there was any chemistry. Toffoli's spot on the 2nd line then theoretically could have been used to audition a prospect.

Instead, they tried to make the playoffs again and brought in Iginla and Bishop (at the expense of a defensive prospect) to help them do it.

Additionally I listed all those players because I think we're focusing on "Top 6/Bottom 6" as if they're hard fast divisions when the reality is most players other than Kopitar have played on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines depending on a variety of factors.

Lecavalier played primarily a third line role but skated with players like Gaborik, Brown, Pearson and Toffoli as well as Lewis and King. That season is sort of a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

The most common line combos in 2015-16 were

Lucic-Carter-Toffoli
Lucic-Kopitar-Toffoli
Pearson-Kopitar-Gaborik
Lucic Kopitar-Brown
Clifford-Nolan-Andreoff
Pearson-Kopitar-Brown

That's 5 wingers rotating in and out of the top 4 wing spots. You can say "Brown wasn't a top 6 player" but in the 42 games that Lecavalier played Brown was 3rd in even strength per game minutes played and 4th in ES TOI per game for the full 82 game season.

The Kings have been one of the worst scoring teams in the NHL (maybe even the worst, I'd have to look it up) since the cup years and you are talking about the lack of talent development in that time is because players were blocked by good veteran players? That is just factually incorrect. What player in that time frame that was blocked from making the lineup? You think other teams don't have established veterans in their lineup, they all do. They just draft and develop young players that force them out. The Kings as of now have not had anyone do that. Just absolutely incredible someone is claiming the corpses of Lecavalier, Igina and Gaborik were the reason that the Kings couldn't draft or develop anyone. Marian Gaborik had 57 points in his final 3 seasons with the Kings, he wasn't even in the lineup for many of the nights, missing over 50 games in that time frame.

I think I may have again failed to say what I mean correctly.

I'm NOT suggesting that good players were blocked. I'm suggesting that they weren't looking for "skill first" young forwards that might have pushed veterans out of the lineup, I think they were looking for good veteran players and were willing to trade picks and prospects to get them.

That's why I believe there weren't many "good" young players in the system to be promoted onto the roster during the 2015-2017 window.

And even if you break it down into the post Blake era where you say there was some kind of philosophical change in the evaluation . The 2017 draft saw the Kings take Gabe Vilardi who is currently in the AHL while the next 4 forwards taken were Necas, Suzuki, Norris and Thomas. They are all top 6 forwards in the NHL. We can't be critical and ask questions as to why that is? Gabe Vilardi wasn't blocked, he was given a top 6 role last season in a no-pressure rebuild year and fell off a cliff in the 2nd half. He just wasn't good enough, not because he didn't have the opportunity. Are we supposed to believe that if a "mythical" prospect like Zegras or Suzuki had been drafted by the Kings that they wouldn't have been given the same opportunity that Vilarid was last season? Even this season, the Kings have Trevor Moore and Philip Danault in scoring line roles, but we are supposed to believe that the Kings don't have room for young prospects to break into the top 6?

The fact that the Kings took 1 forward (Kempe) in the 1st and 2nd rounds in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and then suddenly took 7 forwards in those same rounds in 2017, 2018 and 2019 and signing Iafallo in 2017 and Lizotte in 2018 suggests to me a shift in priority if not overall strategy.

Alex Turcotte was drafted 5th overall from the NTDP. Alex Turcotte has 3 goals and 11 points in 20 AHL games. The next pick was the likely Calder trophy winner in the NHL and 4 picks later our rivals took a player from the same junior team who is currently on pace for a 65 point season in the NHL at age 20. So since your supposed philosophical change we have missed out on impact young scorers by taking the wrong guys in 2 of the 3 drafts that we had high picks? But it's unfair to question Mark Yannetti and Rob Blake? I won't say anything on QB vs Raymond or Stutzle because QB has an incredible ceiling but is in the hands of an organization with no idea what they are doing when it comes to developing someone like him that it could sadly be 3 of 3 drafts. Or is your defense going to be the same lame one used around here that Zegras, Raymond, Norris etc. would be playing in Ontario if they had been taken by the Kings.

No.

My defense at this point will be that I'm not personally interested in any kind of definitive evaluation of any players taken from after 2018 because we're talking about rookies or in some cases guys that haven't cracked the league yet.

As for 2018... for where the Kings drafted I haven't seen particularly compelling evidence to suggest they've mishandled Kupari or Thomas or the draft as a whole. If you wanted to say Shafigulan was a stretch i wouldn't push back.

as for 2017 when Blake took over a few months before the draft and the organization was just beginning to turn the cruise ship around... yea I guess I'm willing to give the "new look" Kings a pass for taking a swing on a supremely talented forward who fell down to them and then drafting another Lombarid-esque forward in the second round. Particularly when the defenseman they took in the 4th round has become Drew Doughty's regular partner at the ripe old age of 22.


I'm really sorry if you think I was implying that I'm somehow smarter than everybody else here or that I know everything... I don't think the organization is above criticism and I certainly see plenty of criticisms and questions on here that I frequently agree with.

I just happen to see this argument a lot and am motivated to comment because, as I see it, the fight is

Side One - The Kings were/are good at scouting/drafting/developing skilled forwards
Side Two - The Kings were/are bad at scouting/drafting/developing skilled forwards

whereas my perspective is simply

Side Three - The Kings weren't focused on scouting/drafting/developing skilled forwards so we have limited evidence with which to judge their ability to scout/draft/develop skilled forwards