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Around the League Thread part V

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King'sPawn said:
That's the whole point - the prospects have to be developed to be better than the forwards. They need to do a better job to develop top-six forwards with later/non-first round picks where they push the vets out of the lineup.

Making Carter a tradeable asset in his mid-30s and FINALLY pushing Brown to the bottom-six at the age of 37 is not a viable system.
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I am clearly doing a bad job of expressing my thoughts. I'm suggesting that they weren't REALLY focusing on "skilled forward development" until very recently and therefore shouldn't be judged as if they were focused on it the way they previously had been or other teams were at the same time.

As for their treatment of generational players that will forever hold a unique spot in the organizations history and likely future (Brown)... I think it's fair to say that there are more factors at play than just "how do we best develop young players" and I wouldn't expect that it isn't reflective of any overall "system".

Is it detrimental to other efforts? Possibly. Is the benefit the organization gains worth any potential drawbacks? Perhaps.

Time will tell.

This is still a business and an industry made up of people that forge relationships of varying lengths, strenghts and importance.

Here are active high scorers from different teams NOT taken in the first:

Anaheim - Troy Terry (5th round)
Boston - Marchand (3rd round), Bergeron (2nd)
Buffalo - Olofsson (7th round)
Calgary - Gaudreau (4th)
Carolina - Aho (2nd)
Chicago - Debrincat (2nd)
Columbus - Jenner (2nd)
Dallas - Robertson (2nd), Hintz (3rd)
Detroit - Bertuzzi (2nd)
Minnesota - Kaprizov (5th)
Montreal - Lehkonen (2nd)
Nashville - Sissons (2nd)
New Jersey - Bratt (6th)
Ottawa - Batherson (4th)
Pittsburgh - Guentzel (3rd), Rust (3rd) let's also recognize they've won the cup AFTER the Kings
St Louis - Kyrou (2nd) let's also recognize they've won the cup AFTER the Kings
Tampa Bay - Killorn (3rd), Palat (7th), Point (3rd), Cirelli (3rd) let's also recognize they've won the cup AFTER the Kings
Winnipeg - Copp (4th)

So, over half the teams, including a few of the more recent cup winners, have homegrown talent in the top-6 of scoring for their respective teams, drafted outside of the first round.
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I'm not interested in comparing the relative success of other teams. Particularly since Kopitar and Carter have been mainstays at Center almost the entire time we're talking about. So we're really just talking about wingers.

Pittsburgh is the only team on that list with any kind of similarity since they had previous Cup wins with two high profile Centers that remained on the roster.


Just because they were focused on defense doesn't mean they were blocked from developing a top-6 forward that fits on the team.
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They weren't just focused on defense. They were focused on supplementing what they believed (incorrectly) to be a cup contending roster with experience veterans who could replace the players they were slowly losing.

They weren't focused on building a pipeline of prospects to slowly supplant older players as the aged out. They saw what they believed was an opportunity to extend their ability to realistically win the Cup and clearly they failed.

I don't think they failed at something they weren't trying to do. I think they failed to do something else at the expense of even TRYING to do the thing you're saying they failed at.

The end result is the same... they missed the playoffs, they didn't score a lot and they were left without any talented forwards to replace the once that left and so they had to rebuild.

We agree on the symptoms (no good young players/lousy regular season results) but not the disease (I say a focus on the present, you say an inability to effectively plan for the future)

I'm suggesting that they disease may be cured (because I believe they have been focusing on the future since 2017) while you (I think) are concerned that the disease remains (an inability to effectively plan for the future/execute said plan)

I think that's what's happening anyway...
 
All The Kings Men said:
I am clearly doing a bad job of expressing my thoughts. I'm suggesting that they weren't REALLY focusing on "skilled forward development" until very recently and therefore shouldn't be judged as if they were focused on it the way they previously had been or other teams were at the same time.

As for their treatment of generational players that will forever hold a unique spot in the organizations history and likely future (Brown)... I think it's fair to say that there are more factors at play than just "how do we best develop young players" and I wouldn't expect that it isn't reflective of any overall "system".

Is it detrimental to other efforts? Possibly. Is the benefit the organization gains worth any potential drawbacks? Perhaps.

Time will tell.

This is still a business and an industry made up of people that forge relationships of varying lengths, strenghts and importance.



I'm not interested in comparing the relative success of other teams. Particularly since Kopitar and Carter have been mainstays at Center almost the entire time we're talking about. So we're really just talking about wingers.

Pittsburgh is the only team on that list with any kind of similarity since they had previous Cup wins with two high profile Centers that remained on the roster.




They weren't just focused on defense. They were focused on supplementing what they believed (incorrectly) to be a cup contending roster with experience veterans who could replace the players they were slowly losing.

They weren't focused on building a pipeline of prospects to slowly supplant older players as the aged out. They saw what they believed was an opportunity to extend their ability to realistically win the Cup and clearly they failed.

I don't think they failed at something they weren't trying to do. I think they failed to do something else at the expense of even TRYING to do the thing you're saying they failed at.

The end result is the same... they missed the playoffs, they didn't score a lot and they were left without any talented forwards to replace the once that left and so they had to rebuild.

We agree on the symptoms (no good young players/lousy regular season results) but not the disease (I say a focus on the present, you say an inability to effectively plan for the future)

I'm suggesting that they disease may be cured (because I believe they have been focusing on the future since 2017) while you (I think) are concerned that the disease remains (an inability to effectively plan for the future/execute said plan)

I think that's what's happening anyway...
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Not trying is a pretty rich excuse.
 
DoktorJeep said:
Not trying is a pretty rich excuse.
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I am clearly doing a crap job of communicating...

It's not that they identified a need and just "didn't try"... it's that their focus and efforts were directed in a different direction.

Imagine you need to get from Long Beach to Catalina. You hire someone to get you there and they decide to build a boat.

Ten years later the boat they built you wasn't able to get you to Catalina.

In the evaluation of the boat... I think it's fair to ask why it didn't have a motor or a proper set of sails or a sea worthy hull etc

I don't think it's fair to ask why it doesn't have wings, a nosecone or landing gear.

Sorry for the tortured metaphor.


EDIT: AND TO BE CLEAR... I'm not offering an excuse.

The club CLEARLY failed. That's why they had the season they did in 2018-19. That's why tons of veteran talented players got traded. There are plenty of mistakes to identify in the past and the present.

I just don't think this is one of them and I'm trying to explain why I feel that way about this PARTICULAR line of criticism.
 
All The Kings Men said:
I am clearly doing a crap job of communicating...

It's not that they identified a need and just "didn't try"... it's that their focus and efforts were directed in a different direction.

Imagine you need to get from Long Beach to Catalina. You hire someone to get you there and they decide to build a boat.

Ten years later the boat they built you wasn't able to get you to Catalina.

In the evaluation of the boat... I think it's fair to ask why it didn't have a motor or a proper set of sails or a sea worthy hull etc

I don't think it's fair to ask why it doesn't have wings, a nosecone or landing gear.

Sorry for the tortured metaphor.


EDIT: AND TO BE CLEAR... I'm not offering an excuse.

The club CLEARLY failed. That's why they had the season they did in 2018-19. That's why tons of veteran talented players got traded. There are plenty of mistakes to identify in the past and the present.

I just don't think this is one of them and I'm trying to explain why I feel that way about this PARTICULAR line of criticism.
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S’all good chief, I can see the rationale you’ve articulated. But arguing for fairness is an excuse. The results are what are measured, not intentions. If the intended actions didn’t lead to wins then it is valid to question the decision making. Especially if there is a 5+ year track record of not getting wins while spending a big bunch of money.
 
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Herby said:
The problem is, a few of these guys you listed have already had mistakes with their development that have likely caused damage to the long-term. So it's tough to think the ones who haven't will be flawlessly developed by these guys.

As for TM, I agree with you, he has done exactly what was asked of him going into the season. With the moves Blake made this summer the goal was to compete for a playoff spot, and right now the Kings are a playoff team. A coach trying to make the playoffs is always going to lean on veterans, especially when none of the young players have really wow'ed when they have been up. Is it the best path for developing the Kings young players who are NHL players or close to NHL players? No, but again that wasn't what he was told to do this season. If you don't like the usage of young players the blame should be on Blake, not TM. I am quite surprised how negative people feel about TM with where the team currently sits in the standings.



Yannetti can say they have changed the philosophy and maybe they have, but it's tough not to look at 2017 and 2019 and be disappointed with the current results. I also don't think it takes 5 years to evaluate a draft, not when so many other teams are getting returns already much sooner from those drafts. Gabe is in the AHL in his D+5 and players the Kings passed over for him are contributing as scorers in the NHL. Being a point per-per-game player in the AHL for a high first round pick at age 22 is nothing to write home about, it's just not. If someone had told us when he was drafted that in January 2022 he'd be in the AHL we'd all say it was disappointing. I don't question Vilardi's skill, but he's not skilled enough to overcome his skating and complete lack of any kind of two-way game for a team that is trying to make the playoffs. That is why he isn't up, not because of how the team started out early in the year. They gave him an ample chance to succeed by gift wrapping him a top-six role last season in a throw away year and he just wasn't good enough, and those concerns (especially skating) were validated. If we make excuses passing on players who are more skilled for reasons like size, toughness and lack of two-way play it's fair to question why Gabe's skating wasn't more of a concern before he was drafted.

Every team in the NHL had to deal with Covid yet many of them are getting anywhere from decent to star production from players that the Kings decided not to draft since this shift in drafting strategy.

I just don't know why other teams can get production at the NHL level from players the same age, but the Kings it's always "Let's be Patient".
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A lot of the development falls into how we are surrounding our draft picks. Do we provide ample talent and skill around the draft picks so that they are able to excel at their level. For instance, does Turcotte have enough skill around him to succeed at the AHL level? I assume Madden is his regular line mate, but who else is there? Was Vilardi given enough talent when he was up with the Kings and was he given enough surrounding skill to succeed? I would like to see Vilardi up on Byfield's wing when QB really "gets it". I think then you would see Vilardi do well. This is all part of development and things that managment has to take into consideration when developing these players. So if a prospect in the AHL is doing REALLY good, take away his support and let him fight for success. I know this is opposite to what I just said, but it comes down to a matter of getting the most from your prospects. Add, subtract, divide, multiply; do whatever it takes to get these prospects to succeed. I'm a firm believer that it all starts on the farm. The way the farm goes, so the big club goes and so do the prospects. Part of Blake's job is to get the Reign on the right page when it comes to developing, something that I'm kind of critical of him in. But I guess we just have to wait and see.
 
@King'sPawn and I have been saying this since probably about 2017-2018.

It’s not really fair to hold ‘high-skill’ development against the kings because of their lack of high/elite picks AND because of their pretty clear mission before that.

We have taken a ‘wait-and-see’ approach cautiously because of that—we can’t BLAME them for ‘no impact forwards’ since Toffoli (well, Kempe now), but we also can’t say they’d be any good with molding elite talent.

Well, early returns on and usage of that talent is throwing those questions towards the ‘these guys don’t know what they’re doing’ side. Turcotte out of position with plugs and no PP time in the AHL after pulling him from college to reunite him with Wrobo? What the f*** are you doing? Kaliyev on the 4th line permanently. Etc.

In the end? Maybe we’re wrong and ‘the plan’ is excellent and all these guys turn out. But so far—for WHATEVER reason (and sure injuries and covid play a part)—none of our high picks or elite offensive talent are panning out. They’re developing slowly/behind schedule, and STILL playing in bad deployment with bad linemates, while, as always, the Just-a-guys/two-way guys with defensive focus are developing like crazy. That’s an absolute strength, I think we can all agree on that—Kings are among the best in the league on that. SO—on the developing offensive talent front I think it’s MOST fair to give them an ‘incomplete’ because it’s still early, but it’s absolutely fair to criticize the process because on appearance it’s lacking results or tangible progress AND because the process is visibly goofy (what are the odds Blake and Co. have figured something out that the rest of the NHL hasn’t).
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
@King'sPawn and I have been saying this since probably about 2017-2018.

It’s not really fair to hold ‘high-skill’ development against the kings because of their lack of high/elite picks AND because of their pretty clear mission before that.

We have taken a ‘wait-and-see’ approach cautiously because of that—we can’t BLAME them for ‘no impact forwards’ since Toffoli (well, Kempe now), but we also can’t say they’d be any good with molding elite talent.

Well, early returns on and usage of that talent is throwing those questions towards the ‘these guys don’t know what they’re doing’ side. Turcotte out of position with plugs and no PP time in the AHL after pulling him from college to reunite him with Wrobo? What the f*** are you doing? Kaliyev on the 4th line permanently. Etc.

In the end? Maybe we’re wrong and ‘the plan’ is excellent and all these guys turn out. But so far—for WHATEVER reason (and sure injuries and covid play a part)—none of our high picks or elite offensive talent are panning out. They’re developing slowly/behind schedule, and STILL playing in bad deployment with bad linemates, while, as always, the Just-a-guys/two-way guys with defensive focus are developing like crazy. That’s an absolute strength, I think we can all agree on that—Kings are among the best in the league on that. SO—on the developing offensive talent front I think it’s MOST fair to give them an ‘incomplete’ because it’s still early, but it’s absolutely fair to criticize the process because on appearance it’s lacking results or tangible progress AND because the process is visibly goofy (what are the odds Blake and Co. have figured something out that the rest of the NHL hasn’t).
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I’ve soured on Turcotte honestly. At the time they needed a center, I get it. Didn’t know they would get Byfield and Danault. I’m pissed that a third line center was drafted 5thoa and now can’t even crack the team as a center. Trade him I say while he still has some shine left.
 
LAKings88 said:
I’ve soured on Turcotte honestly. At the time they needed a center. Didn’t know they would get Byfield and Danault. I’m pissed that a third line center was drafted 5thoa and now can’t even crack the team as a center. Trade him I say while he still has some shine left.
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“Cant crack the team?” Lame.

In that regard neither can any other prospect since they’re only up due to injuries. Better trade em all.
 
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Danault, Arvidsson, Athanasiou, Lizotte. Edler on defense. Re-signed Andersson and Moore as well. They simply weren't planning on many prospects being on the team this season. You can make a case for Byfield, but Durzi wasn't supposed to be here. Not with Doughty, Roy, and Walker on the right side. Kaliyev, nope. Whoever else, nope.
 
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Raccoon Jesus said:
“Cant crack the team?” Lame.

In that regard neither can any other prospect since they’re only up due to injuries. Better trade em all.
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As in no center spot to give him. He will need to be a winger. He will not be pivotal going forward. He’s already boxed out, so yeah the only way he sticks is due to injury.

He could become the next Trevor Lewis if things fall right.
 
tny760 said:
seriously "can't crack the lineup" is such a horseshit comment i see so often from the usual suspects
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Yup

We all want the young guys to come up and immediately make an impact, play significant minutes and never look back. But I am pretty sure Blake and the FO went into this year with the idea of having these young guys get their taste of the NHL game in little cups of coffee and learn the game from the vets while we are in the playoff chase. Then next year & the year after, is when the young guys can begin to take over. So by this measure/thought, everything is going as planned in their minds. The FO is probably happy with the results and the young kids showings. They are paying the long game with the kids and trying to build a winning mentality for them as they beginning to get some NHL time. I know that seems bizarre to many of us, but I believe that's the case -- right or wrong (idk...but i hope they are right and know what they are doing LT).
 
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LAKings88 said:
As in no center spot to give him. He will need to be a winger. He will not be pivotal going forward. He’s already boxed out, so yeah the only way he sticks is due to injury.

He could become the next Trevor Lewis if things fall right.
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He is a younger, faster Iaffalo.
 
KingsHockey24 said:
Who do I gotta sleep with to get this dude in LA. What a pipe dream he'd be.

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upload_2022-1-30_13-27-43.jpeg
 
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The Sharks are now a -5 in regulation W/L differential. Surviving on OT/SO points. If that continues, the Sharks shouldn't be a threat to the Kings the rest of the way. Depending on who they lose to, or whether Meier gets 5 goals in a game again or not.

There are only so many games you can lose in regulation before you can't win enough to overcome it. Start getting to 30, and that's when you start to worry. If you win every other game, the best you can do is 104pts, and your average teams won't be winning every remaining game. SJ is already at 20.
 
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The McNabb signing is good, didn't even know anyone wanted him back though, we have enough of a log jam as it is on the back 5-8 of the defensive line. The Amadio signing though... At least we know one of the Knights' weaknesses.
 
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