Around the League, Summer 2016--NHL Draft Shenanigans Edition

[KingsFan7824]

With respect to the Subban-Weber trade, makes me think if we could have gotten in on that action. Say Martinez+ for Subban or even Muzzin for Subban. Subban is one of the top 5 defenseman in the league. Although making these trades would not solve our defense problems, we would end up having two of the best defensemen in the league in our lineup. Can't believe they traded Subban for an aging Weber who is on a horrible contract now. Habs could have gotten so much more.

Subban has a $9m cap hit. Where is that going on the Kings? Martinez+? Martinez would be the plus in that deal.

 

[theMajor]

I didn't say he wasn't a Top 10 LW, just said he is overrated. That sentiment is not a response to someone saying he is a Top 10 LW but more in relation to Larsson.

ahh, I thought you were the other guy. a lot of people think Hall is overrated but the dude was a stud on a crappy team. Larsson is good but IMO he is the overrated one.

cross-post from another thread:

doesnt really mean anything in itself but its an interesting comparison.
Larsson has been in and out of the NHL since 2011 and like another post said, he's been a different player since DeBoer was let go. still, I see him as a 3/4 dman at best. meanwhile Hall is most definitely a top 10 LW (probably closer to top 5)
taking into account that defenseman are harder to find than forwards are, I still think this trade is fairly one sided and was done out of desperation more than anything

 

[tsanuri]

So nashville gets out of what will be a sunk cost of $6M in a couple years for a guy who will still be in his prime.

This makes financial sense for Nashville IMO.

Weber's deal will be Brown bad in 3 years.

If true it would turn into a good deal.
But somehow D men manage to play later and at a higher level.
And if you just look at the term Subban is on it will cost the team 10M more to have him.

 

[HookKing]

So nashville gets out of what will be a sunk cost of $6M in a couple years for a guy who will still be in his prime.

This makes financial sense for Nashville IMO.

Weber's deal will be Brown bad in 3 years.

Montreal wants to win now.

 

[YP44]

If true it would turn into a good deal.
But somehow D men manage to play later and at a higher level.
And if you just look at the term Subban is on it will cost the team 10M more to have him.

Does that ignore the years on Weber past the length of Subban's deal?

 

[YP44]

Montreal wants to win now.

Subban has the better advanced stats today and will be better tomorrow.

makes no sense for Montreal. They chose coach over player, same as when they dealt Roy.

 

[BallPointHammer]

Does it make sense to say Hall isn't necessarly over-rated but he is over-hyped?

 

[tsanuri]

Does that ignore the years on Weber past the length of Subban's deal?

Yes it's looking at just the years Subban is under contract.
It's 4M more if you count the extra years for Weber. But that is also 4 more years of potential play.
Like I said if Weber becomes a shell it's a good deal.
If Weber remains a solid D man it isn't as good a deal.

I don't expect him to stay at the level he's at, especially on the offensive side of things. But being a strong shutdown D in the last few years is very possible and gives value.

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

Does it make sense to say Hall isn't necessarly over-rated but he is over-hyped?

He's been pretty great on crap teams:

NHL forwards, 2012-16, min 1,000 minutes, ranked by 5v5 PTS/60:
1. Sidney Crosby: 2.71
2. Jamie Benn: 2.54
3. Taylor Hall: 2.49

 

[YP44]

Yes it's looking at just the years Subban is under contract.
It's 4M more if you count the extra years for Weber. But that is also 4 more years of potential play.
Like I said if Weber becomes a shell it's a good deal.
If Weber remains a solid D man it isn't as good a deal.

I don't expect him to stay at the level he's at, especially on the offensive side of things. But being a strong shutdown D in the last few years is very possible and gives value.

I expect Subban to flourish in Nashville and Weber to really start going down hill. Weber wasn't even the best D-man on his team this past year so I think the regression has already started.

I fully expect this deal to go down as one of the most one sided we have ever seen in the cap era.

 

[Herby]

Does it make sense to say Hall isn't necessarly over-rated but he is over-hyped?

The problem with Hall is he is going to be 25 this season and he has never played a playoff game, and it has to be a red flag that he continues to be passed over for these best on best tournaments.

I see it as a similar situation to Frolov and Cammalleri with the Kings, both were good players, don't get me wrong, but the points were kind of empty because the team was so bad. They were point per game guys (or close to it) but didn't feel like star players, and neither had any playoff experience.

Ofcourse two years later Cammalleri basically carried Montreal to the Conf finals, so maybe Hall will thrive in the post season, but the Oilers desperately needed defense, and I think the market was very bearish on RNH and Eberle. The only way they were getting a defender was by giving up Hall.

 

[Herby]

As for the Montreal-Nashville swap. I think it's a huge win for Nashville. I think at this point in their careers Subban is a much bigger game changer than Weber. I am actually shocked Montreal made this trade. Weber's defensive struggles are going to be magnified playing in that market.

 

[YP44]

As for the Montreal-Nashville swap. I think it's a huge win for Nashville. I think at this point in their careers Subban is a much bigger game changer than Weber. I am actually shocked Montreal made this trade. Weber's defensive struggles are going to be magnified playing in that market.

plus the game is evolving where puck moving d-men are in more demand than the stay at home type that I believe Weber will deteriorate into.

This deal is amazing for the preds. They trade Jones for Johansen, and then Weber for Subban.

Ballsy moves.

 

[Brodeur]

ahh, I thought you were the other guy. a lot of people think Hall is overrated but the dude was a stud on a crappy team. Larsson is good but IMO he is the overrated one.

cross-post from another thread:

doesnt really mean anything in itself but its an interesting comparison.
Larsson has been in and out of the NHL since 2011 and like another post said, he's been a different player since DeBoer was let go. still, I see him as a 3/4 dman at best. meanwhile Hall is most definitely a top 10 LW (probably closer to top 5)
taking into account that defenseman are harder to find than forwards are, I still think this trade is fairly one sided and was done out of desperation more than anything

I'd be curious about utilization with that chart. I can only imagine that Giordano/Brodie did the heavy lifting while Hamilton got the easier matchups. Meanwhile Greene/Larsson typically got the opposition's top line.

In terms of sheer offense, Hamilton is better than Larsson. +/- isn't the perfect stat, but Hamilton was -14 last season while Larsson was +15.

 

[tsanuri]

I expect Subban to flourish in Nashville and Weber to really start going down hill. Weber wasn't even the best D-man on his team this past year so I think the regression has already started.

I fully expect this deal to go down as one of the most one sided we have ever seen in the cap era.

I see his play as not going down hill as much as he had a player around him who really elevated his game in Josi.
I also think he was in a bit of adjustment for not having to be the guy who did everything on the team. And I would say he adjusted nicely to that. How many years did he lead his team in scoring just because they had no offensive talent?

 

[Kingsfan1]

If Oilers really have an agreement in place with Lucic and Demers then they might actually make the playoffs next year.

Lucic-Mcdavid-Puljujarvi
Pouliot-RNH-Eberle
Maroon-Draisaitl-Yakupov

Klefbom-Larsson
Sekera-Demers
Fayne-Nurse

Very possible the Kings might not make the playoffs next year and if don't improve for years after that too with Calgary destined to get better as well. Oilers are building a scary team by trading from strength.

 

[theMajor]

I'd be curious about utilization with that chart. I can only imagine that Giordano/Brodie did the heavy lifting while Hamilton got the easier matchups. Meanwhile Greene/Larsson typically got the opposition's top line.

In terms of sheer offense, Hamilton is better than Larsson. +/- isn't the perfect stat, but Hamilton was -14 last season while Larsson was +15.

the Devils team goal differential was -20 too (worst in the league), so being a +15 in context is pretty impressive.Larsson also gets an inordinate amount of dzone starts on top of that. then again, the Devils have a Vezina caliber goalie in net and Hamilton was backed by two sieves

 

[Telos]

Insane deals. I feel like Edmonton will regret the Hall trade, though it is spiritually the kind of deal they should be making.

 

[YP44]

I see his play as not going down hill as much as he had a player around him who really elevated his game in Josi.
I also think he was in a bit of adjustment for not having to be the guy who did everything on the team. And I would say he adjusted nicely to that. How many years did he lead his team in scoring just because they had no offensive talent?

So you think he will do better without having Josi to help him out?

Weber's peak is higher than Subban's will be, but Weber is done his and Subban is entering his IMO. That is why this is a big win for nashville.

 

[YP44]

If Oilers really have an agreement in place with Lucic and Demers then they might actually make the playoffs next year.

Lucic-Mcdavid-Puljujarvi
Pouliot-RNH-Eberle
Maroon-Draisaitl-Yakupov

Klefbom-Larsson
Sekera-Demers
Fayne-Nurse

Very possible the Kings might not make the playoffs next year and if don't improve for years after that too with Calgary destined to get better as well. Oilers are building a scary team by trading from strength.

That D is pretty decent and young and locked up.

 

[BallPointHammer]

He's been pretty great on crap teams:

NHL forwards, 2012-16, min 1,000 minutes, ranked by 5v5 PTS/60:
1. Sidney Crosby: 2.71
2. Jamie Benn: 2.54
3. Taylor Hall: 2.49

I understand what you're saying. The classic "good players on a bad team vs average playes on winning team" debate. Hall and Larsson have plenty of years ahead to make their mark.

 

[Kingsfan1]

Insane deals. I feel like Edmonton will regret the Hall trade, though it is spiritually the kind of deal they should be making.

I don't see them regretting anything. They are trading from strength to add to another area that is terrible, with this trade now and the agreements in place with Lucic and Demers the Oilers are actually a playoff caliber team.

Oilers
Ducks
Dallas
Nashville
Sharks
Jets
Hawks
Blues
Wild
Flames

Locks for playoffs
Dallas
Blues
Sharks
Ducks
Hawks
Preds

Then you have the Jets, Oilers, Wild, Kings we would have to beat out some of teams but I don't know.

All improved and have insane young talent. Hell the Hawks got Panarin, the jets , Oilers, Flames have insane young team. I really do believe the game is evolving and the heavy type not going to fly anymore so I will stand by it. We have no skill in the bottom 6. I see us not making the playoffs not only this year but the next and next unless Dean changes his philosophy.

I guess it's a more wait and see with all of you but that's my opinion.

 

[Brodeur]

the Devils team goal differential was -20 too (worst in the league), so being a +15 in context is pretty impressive.Larsson also gets an inordinate amount of dzone starts on top of that. then again, the Devils have a Vezina caliber goalie in net and Hamilton was backed by two sieves

Our de facto 2nd pairing was Moore/Severson for most of the season and they were -12 and -8 with the same goalie while playing against easier competition. Brodie managed to be a +4 and Giordano was a -5 but played more minutes.

I'm just worried that the Canadian media is going to unfairly roast Larsson for not being a more dynamic offensive threat.

 

[Herby]

Yzerman is the best GM in the sport, IMO.

I think a lot of people would have panicked with Drouin, he played it really cool and now that team looks loaded for the next few years.

 

[Telos]

So many Canadian fans had their dreams dashed in like 10 minutes today. At least the boards are going to be entertaining for a few days. These deals also make free agency very interesting.