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Around the league part 2

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Buddy The Elf said:
Let's be honest, Ken Holland's Detroit rosters didn't take a genius to assemble. It took a shit load of crazy bread to hoard as much talent as they could before the salary cap. A lot of that talent was assembled before he arrived. I'll give him credit for drafting Datysuk and Zetterberg.
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I don't know about that. He started out there back in 1987 as director of amateur scouting. You would think he had a hand in assembling that talent. 1987 to 2019 is an incredible tenure with one organization.

The Butcher said:
And is about to play game 1 in the Stanley Cup. Holland was looking pretty clueless a few years ago but he seems to have an idea on how to build a winner. The Red Wings had one of the most successful eras in NHL history under his watch. He did a lot of it with Chris Osgood and now Skinner.

I'm still a believer that defense and goaltending win championships but Ken Hollands methods seem to work as well.

EDIT Hasek says hi
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Mike Vernon too. ;)
 
Jim Devellano had far more to do with the Red Wings success than Holland. Twice now, Holland has found himself in a position where most of the hard work was already done for him.
 
Nasti said:
Jim Devellano had far more to do with the Red Wings success than Holland. Twice now, Holland has found himself in a position where most of the hard work was already done for him.
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Maybe the late 90’s teams, but not the post lockout ones in Detroit that had a pretty good amount of success
 
Herby said:
Maybe the late 90’s teams, but not the post lockout ones in Detroit that had a pretty good amount of success
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I’d say a lot of that was still carry over from what Devellano built. From scouting, a winning culture, and having a top 5-10 defenseman of all time. Not saying Holland did nothing but he’s not number 1 on the list of reasons Detroit was so good for so long.
 
Herby said:
No GM is perfect, but I would say Holland's wins greatly exceed his losses. Hyman is playing like a $10m player right now, on a $5.5m cap hit, and it cost noting to acquire him. Ekholm has been a huge homerun too.
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He's made some good moves. He's made some bad moves.

He's hired 3 coaches in 5 years.

He hasn't drafted a player that's made a significant contribution to the team yet. (That might be changing soon)

He had nothing to do with Bouchard/McDavid/Draisaitl.

Overall I'd say Holland has been average.
 
Nasti said:
I’d say a lot of that was still carry over from what Devellano built. From scouting, a winning culture, and having a top 5-10 defenseman of all time. Not saying Holland did nothing but he’s not number 1 on the list of reasons Detroit was so good for so long.
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Well no GM is, it's still a players league.

But if you are going to penalize Holland for inheriting Hall of Famers, you have to do the same with Lombardi, and many other GM's and coaches. I think Maurice is the best coach in hockey, but he did inherit a Presidents Trophy winning team.

If the Kings had drafted Martin Hanzal and Ben Bishop in 2005 instead of AK and Quick are there SC banners hanging from the rafters in LA? I assume the answer is probably no, but I think you still have to give Lombardi credit for building around what he inherited.
 
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Herby said:
But if you are going to penalize Holland for inheriting Hall of Famers, you have to do the same with Lombardi, and many other GM's and coaches?
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Yes.

But Lombardi did more to build the Kings roster than Holland did to build the Oilers.

Both required walking into an ideal situation though. Just like Yzerman did in Tampa.
 
Herby said:
Well no GM is, it's still a players league.

But if you are going to penalize Holland for inheriting Hall of Famers, you have to do the same with Lombardi, and many other GM's and coaches. I think Maurice is the best coach in hockey, but he did inherit a Presidents Trophy winning team.

If the Kings had drafted Martin Hanzal and Ben Bishop in 2005 instead of AK and Quick are there SC banners hanging from the rafters in LA? I assume the answer is probably no, but I think you still have to give Lombardi credit for building around what he inherited.
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Not really a good comparison though. Yes, Lombardi inherited good pieces but he’s the one who analyzed the situation and cultivated them into being what they became. He could have just as easily traded Brown and kept Cammelleri. Plus all the many pieces he acquired via trade and free agency. Holland literally took over after the Red Wings won their first cup.
 
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Is it just me, or does Conner mcDavid look ridiculous with his grown out beard? Some guys just can’t and shouldn’t.
 
Schrute farms said:
Is it just me, or does Conner mcDavid look ridiculous with his grown out beard? Some guys just can’t and shouldn’t.
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Dustin Brown asks "what are you talking about?"
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johnjm22 said:
https://x.com/i/web/status/1799220864660984307

Pretty crazy that a hockey team in Florida gets better attendance than an MLB team.

I knew the Marlins got bad attendance but I didn't realize it was this bad. There's been years where they only get 10K fans per game.
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Panthers arena is situated right off the freeway between Miami and the suburbs a little north where many families with kids into sports live. Its easy to get to and you pull right up.
The Marlins decided to place their stadium where it takes a million hours to get to if you dont live right in Miami where its more of a party and clubbing scene than sports scene though they do love the Miami Heat there. There were a lot of allegations of government/people on the take when they decided to put the Marlins stadium there instead of Ft Lauderdale/Palm Beach/Boynton Beach where they would have done a lot better.
 
Nasti said:
Not really a good comparison though. Yes, Lombardi inherited good pieces but he’s the one who analyzed the situation and cultivated them into being what they became. He could have just as easily traded Brown and kept Cammelleri. Plus all the many pieces he acquired via trade and free agency. Holland literally took over after the Red Wings won their first cup.
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I can understand not wanting to give Holland credit for 97 and 98, but the great teams they had in 07 and 08? That was a decade after he took over, and he drafted one HOF lock and one HOF tweener.

Lombardi did make good decisions with what he had to work with, but I think it's a fair statement to say LA doesn't win without Taylor's two picks in 05. I mean 3/4 of the Kings "Core Four" was drafted by DT. But I don't think it's fair to minimize his accomplishments, every single GM in the history of sports that built a winner started with some key pieces.
 
Herby said:
Lombardi did make good decisions with what he had to work with, but I think it's a fair statement to say LA doesn't win without Taylor's two picks in 05. I mean 3/4 of the Kings "Core Four" was drafted by DT. But I don't think it's fair to minimize his accomplishments, every single GM in the history of sports that built a winner started with some key pieces.
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Dean didn't draft Quick, but I think you have to give him some credit for JQ's development.

I've always believed that in order to "develop" netminders you must organizationally place an emphasis team structure and defense. Lombardi did that, and that's part of the reason we had so much success with goalies under him.

Remember how goaltending was a constant issue for us prior to Lombardi?

When Dean got here, one of the first thing's he was said was "we're going to draft and develop a #1 goaltender".
 
Herby said:
I can understand not wanting to give Holland credit for 97 and 98, but the great teams they had in 07 and 08? That was a decade after he took over, and he drafted one HOF lock and one HOF tweener.

Lombardi did make good decisions with what he had to work with, but I think it's a fair statement to say LA doesn't win without Taylor's two picks in 05. I mean 3/4 of the Kings "Core Four" was drafted by DT. But I don't think it's fair to minimize his accomplishments, every single GM in the history of sports that built a winner started with some key pieces.
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Yeah I give him more credit for the 2008 cup win than the others and I’m not saying Holland sucks. But I am saying he gets more credit than he deserves, even for the 2008 win. The entire infrastructure and culture of the organization was already set by then and again, that preceded him. I remember one of the first interviews with Dean where he talked about having to replace typewriters with computers and modernizing the office. It’s just apples and oranges.

As for his time with the Oilers, he really had to do the bare minimum while also making some horrendous mistakes along the way. It’s why so many Oilers fans aren’t too upset about the possibility of this being his final season.
 
Schmooley said:
Panthers arena is situated right off the freeway between Miami and the suburbs a little north where many families with kids into sports live. Its easy to get to and you pull right up.
The Marlins decided to place their stadium where it takes a million hours to get to if you dont live right in Miami where its more of a party and clubbing scene than sports scene though they do love the Miami Heat there. There were a lot of allegations of government/people on the take when they decided to put the Marlins stadium there instead of Ft Lauderdale/Palm Beach/Boynton Beach where they would have done a lot better.
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That was the site of the old Orange Bowl where the U of Miami played their college ball. Stadium was getting older and with the canes no longer a top level program wasn’t going to get the money needed to bring it back up.
 
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The Panthers arena is definitely one of the more unusually located ones I've been to. They are right back against the Everglades and it's in a suburban area with your typical suburban shops like Target. That goes against the trend of downtown stadiums now being built, it kind of reminds me of location of the old Palace in Auburn Hills, MI where the Pistons played.
 
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I think Edmonton has a good chance to win game 1 on the road. Not a believer in either teams D, but the Oilers have the size and have shown a willingness to block shots.
 
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