Around the league part 2

[YP44]

I mean even before this season it was easy to find a long list of kings who performed better when they left

the list keeps growing and getting more damning

meh it's one game against a team that has looked shit. Happy for Quick but I don't expect him to dial it back or anything. He will have flashes of his old self (that's what great players who age out do) but will be a sub .900 backup.

Maybe Rangers win the cup and Quick all of a sudden has 4 cup rings!

 

[YP44]

lol, Edmonton f***ing sucks without McDavid. Honestly, it is remarkable just how crazy good and dominant McDavid is to drag this trash deep into the playoffs

guy deserves cups.

 

[chris kontos]

substitute vanbiesbrook for belfour. belfour was born in manitoba

 

[AbsentMojo]

Really happy for Quickie getting this one against the Oilers

I think one of the reasons JQ is doing well is Rags have best d-corps in the league... And with the goalie coach telling him to play more controlled (which someone mentioned but dont have a linke) I think that is the recipe for success

 

[Fishhead]

I mean even before this season it was easy to find a long list of kings who performed better when they left

the list keeps growing and getting more damning

Yeah, but that happens to every team. There is an even longer list of Kings whose performance dropped after they left.

It really depends on how good the team you go to is. I mean, Quick looked just as bad with Vegas (who were better than the Kings defensively), yet now he's thriving with the Rangers who were a top 5 defensive team last year.

I'm sure we've discussed this before, but I can't think of anyone who left the Kings after being here at least a few years and tore it up off the top of my head. Toffoli had that one great year but otherwise wasn't too far off his averages. Nothing that wouldn't be attributed to natural growth. I actually expected him to take off sooner after being out of Sutter's system.

I went down the list of top NHL scorers from last year, and the only one is Toffoli at #51. After that it was AA at 193, and he barely played here. He did put up 40 points and was a -29. Then Carter at 291 with 29 points. If I have time this weekend I might go through the trade list for the last 10 years or so, but as much as it seems our players improve when they leave I think that's more perception than reality.

 

[King'sPawn]

I'm sure we've discussed this before, but I can't think of anyone who left the Kings after being here at least a few years and tore it up off the top of my head.

Wayne Simmonds had a high of 40 points here. Had multiple 40+ point seasons, including two 60-point seasons after he was traded.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Yeah, but that happens to every team. There is an even longer list of Kings whose performance dropped after they left.

It really depends on how good the team you go to is. I mean, Quick looked just as bad with Vegas (who were better than the Kings defensively), yet now he's thriving with the Rangers who were a top 5 defensive team last year.

I'm sure we've discussed this before, but I can't think of anyone who left the Kings after being here at least a few years and tore it up off the top of my head. Toffoli had that one great year but otherwise wasn't too far off his averages. Nothing that wouldn't be attributed to natural growth. I actually expected him to take off sooner after being out of Sutter's system.

I went down the list of top NHL scorers from last year, and the only one is Toffoli at #51. After that it was AA at 193, and he barely played here. He did put up 40 points and was a -29. Then Carter at 291 with 29 points. If I have time this weekend I might go through the trade list for the last 10 years or so, but as much as it seems our players improve when they leave I think that's more perception than reality.

I literally made a list towards the end of the offseason.

It's pretty damning. Especially when most of them are 'castoffs'.

But of course folks not open to criticism went thru and systematically excused each one somehow.

I just feel like there's a mountain of evidence for drafting, development, and deployment issues here and way too many people are not just 'ok' with it but actively aggressive to the evidence, so I'm not even going to get into it again.

 

[Fishhead]

Wayne Simmonds had a high of 40 points here. Had multiple 40+ point seasons, including two 60-point seasons after he was traded.

Yeah for sure. But he was traded at what, 22/23? I don't think the Kings were holding him back, he just was growing as a player. He's one I didn't think of.

I literally made a list towards the end of the offseason.

It's pretty damning. Especially when most of them are 'castoffs'.

But of course folks not open to criticism went thru and systematically excused each one somehow.

I just feel like there's a mountain of evidence for drafting, development, and deployment issues here and way too many people are not just 'ok' with it but actively aggressive to the evidence, so I'm not even going to get into it again.

Yeah I think I remember. I just don't think it's any different than any other team. There are deficiencies with all those things you mentioned for sure, there is no disputing that.

But I also think of guys like Danault who came here and had a huge jump in goal scoring. Or Trevor Moore who didn't do squat in Toronto and now is producing. Or think of the batch of guys like King, Nolan, Pearson, who are either out of the league or aren't playing as well as they did here.

As I said above there are obvious deficiencies with how they handle and develop players, but I don't think using performance after they leave is a good indicator of that because the Kings are no different than any other team in that regard. It happens to everyone.

 

[johnjm22]

Wayne Simmonds had a high of 40 points here. Had multiple 40+ point seasons, including two 60-point seasons after he was traded.

Wayne Simmonds Even Strength Points Per Season:

LA:
09/10 40pts
10/11 29pts
avg=35pts

PHI:
11/12 33pts
12/13 29pts (pace)
13/14 36pts
14/15 26pts
15/16 39pts
16/17 27pts
17/18 28pts
avg=31pts

So basically, he was just as productive at ES in LA as he was in PHI. Yet his point totals in PHI were much higher for obvious reasons.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Yeah for sure. But he was traded at what, 22/23? I don't think the Kings were holding him back, he just was growing as a player. He's one I didn't think of.



Yeah I think I remember. I just don't think it's any different than any other team. There are deficiencies with all those things you mentioned for sure, there is no disputing that.

But I also think of guys like Danault who came here and had a huge jump in goal scoring. Or Trevor Moore who didn't do squat in Toronto and now is producing. Or think of the batch of guys like King, Nolan, Pearson, who are either out of the league or aren't playing as well as they did here.

As I said above there are obvious deficiencies with how they handle and develop players, but I don't think using performance after they leave is a good indicator of that because the Kings are no different than any other team in that regard. It happens to everyone.

On its own, no, I agree.

Combined with everything else? It's a part of the picture and just one more symptom of the overall malaise.

 

[Rod Auger]

Teddy Purcell

 

[Fishhead]

On its own, no, I agree.

Combined with everything else? It's a part of the picture and just one more symptom of the overall malaise.

I get more concerned with the number of misses in the draft than anything, especially the ones they move up to get. Kupari was a miss to me, and Fagemo. They aren't super high picks but I think they could have gotten more in those spots. Grans I feel was a miss. Turcotte of course, but at least there is some time left and he's improving. Still a miss. I think JAD is a miss too.

As I said s lot of those picks are in the 2nd round, but that trend worries me more. Who have we really hit on? I would say Clarke and Faber are for sure. Laferriere is looking good, and so is Pinelli. Byfield I don't think of a miss yet, but more neutral. That's not a whole lot. So development is a problem, but a lot of it is the raw materials. I don't think there is a vision of what a "Kings" player is right now when they are drafting, and I think they've really struggled overall since the NHL has morphed into more of a scoring league.

Maybe Kupari and Fagemo turn it around and show that it was mainly a developmental issue, but so far they are experiencing exactly what they did here.

I wouldn't say the Kings are terrible at drafting, they churn out NHL guys at a great rate. Maybe I'm just spoiled from all those hits we had in the late 2000's, or maybe they were just ahead of the game and others have caught up.

 

[johnjm22]

Matt Moulson

 

[AbsentMojo]

I get more concerned with the number of misses in the draft than anything, especially the ones they move up to get. Kupari was a miss to me, and Fagemo. They aren't super high picks but I think they could have gotten more in those spots. Grans I feel was a miss. Turcotte of course, but at least there is some time left and he's improving. Still a miss. I think JAD is a miss too.

As I said s lot of those picks are in the 2nd round, but that trend worries me more. Who have we really hit on? I would say Clarke and Faber are for sure. Laferriere is looking good, and so is Pinelli. Byfield I don't think of a miss yet, but more neutral. That's not a whole lot. So development is a problem, but a lot of it is the raw materials. I don't think there is a vision of what a "Kings" player is right now when they are drafting, and I think they've really struggled overall since the NHL has morphed into more of a scoring league.

Maybe Kupari and Fagemo turn it around and show that it was mainly a developmental issue, but so far they are experiencing exactly what they did here.

I wouldn't say the Kings are terrible at drafting, they churn out NHL guys at a great rate. Maybe I'm just spoiled from all those hits we had in the late 2000's, or maybe they were just ahead of the game and others have caught up.

LAK Jack Hughes pick.. someone explain that one

 

[Fishhead]

Teddy Purcell

This was kind of my point. A lot of guys we are coming up with are retired or on the way out. He was what, 13 years ago?

Matt Moulson

Another good one, but that was also 15 years ago. There just aren't many examples under the current regime.

I think the Lightning are one of the best at drafting/development, yet when Miller left, he took off. Same with Verhaeghe. Same with Marchessault, who came up in their system and exploded when he left. There are examples with every team, and most of them are a lot more glaring than anything an ex-King has done.

LAK Jack Hughes pick.. someone explain that one

Hard to say, but I think if everything was equal Blake loves his college track guys.

I thought they would take Poitras honestly, they have a history with Guelph players.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

This was kind of my point. A lot of guys we are coming up with are retired or on the way out. He was what, 13 years ago?

Another good one, but that was also 15 years ago. There just aren't many examples under the current regime.

I think the Lightning are one of the best at drafting/development, yet when Miller left, he took off. Same with Verhaeghe. Same with Marchessault, who came up in their system and exploded when he left. There are examples with every team, and most of them are a lot more glaring than anything an ex-King has done.


Hard to say, but I think if everything was equal Blake loves his college track guys.

I thought they would take Poitras honestly, they have a history with Guelph players.

But the Lightning were winning Cups and still developing guys for their roster, not relegating guys to the AHL and being unable to find roster spots for players. Verhaege had youngers guys like Point 'taking' his spot (and Cirelli, etc) while the team was going deep. In contrast, Turcotte has guys like Lewis, Athanasiou, MacEwen blocking his way and the team wasn't going anywhere. Spence had guys like Walker, Edler blocking his way. And none of these guys are on the roster anymore!

Kings are glass ceiling-ing and shedding guys to play dudes that wouldn't even be here anymore while they were whimpering out in the first round. If you want to examine a first class organization 'shedding' guys it's important to realize they were replacing them with younger, better players in MOST cases.

 

[johnjm22]

Imagine the irony if Quick won the Vezina as a Ranger.

 

[King'sPawn]

Wayne Simmonds Even Strength Points Per Season:

LA:
09/10 40pts
10/11 29pts
avg=35pts

PHI:
11/12 33pts
12/13 29pts (pace)
13/14 36pts
14/15 26pts
15/16 39pts
16/17 27pts
17/18 28pts
avg=31pts

So basically, he was just as productive at ES in LA as he was in PHI. Yet his point totals in PHI were much higher for obvious reasons.

I don't disagree. Just pointing out where offense improved after leaving. He never got the powerplay time here.

Yeah for sure. But he was traded at what, 22/23? I don't think the Kings were holding him back, he just was growing as a player. He's one I didn't think of.

The criteria was a few seasons. If he stayed much longer, he'd either have one or two years of trending upward to the point it looks like an anomaly. If it was several years, it would be closer to trending downward.

So, there's literally a defense for anyone who put up more points.

What about Mike Amadio?

 

[chris kontos]

Imagine the irony if Quick won the Vezina as a Ranger.

Now the rangers have 2 goaltenders that are better than lundquist

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't disagree. Just pointing out where offense improved after leaving. He never got the powerplay time here.

I was about to say "yeah but he was on the PP there" is exactly the kind of critique I'm aiming at

Other teams play these guys to their strengths

Meanwhile our only dman with a lower % of ozone starts than Spence is Mikey. Big brain stuff going on back here.

 

[johnjm22]

Michael Eyssimont
Nic Dowd
Alec Martinez
Tyler Toffoli

 

[DoktorJeep]

Michael Eyssimont
Nic Dowd
Alec Martinez
Tyler Toffoli

Who are players that are ex Kings with more playoff games since leaving than players still here Alex?

 

[johnjm22]

Who are players that are ex Kings with more playoff games since leaving than players still here Alex?

Muzzin maybe?

 

[johnjm22]

Mike Cammalleri

 

[DoktorJeep]

Muzzin maybe?

Jack Campbell?

Mike Cammalleri

Darcy Kuemper?