Around the league part 2

[kingsholygrail]

Trading Simmonds and Schenn was all about giving up future prospects for players ready to go now. They weren't cast offs.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Trading Simmonds and Schenn was all about giving up future prospects for players ready to go now. They weren't cast offs.

Of course not but theyr'e just more examples of guys who blew up elsewhere

I mean if we keep thinning the critera down to "not prospects and not guys in their prime and not guys who got PP time elsewhere" then sure Jeff Carter didnt' perform better after he went to the Pens

But the answer for 90% of the players who left is they upped their game/production.

Again not exclusive to the Kings alone but the reasons they left and were deployed better elsewhere than here is the problem. It's different if you let a guy go because you don't have a spot on a championship team. It's stupid if you let a kid go because you were busy playing a 35 year old in his last year on a 1st round exit team.

But yeah we make enough excuses then we can feel good about everything.

 

[Fishhead]

Michael Eyssimont
Nic Dowd
Alec Martinez
Tyler Toffoli

I don't think Martinez got any better, just the same. Toffoli had one outstanding year, otherwise not that different really. He was going to get better regardless.

Nic Dowd had 22 points for the Kings in 16-17. With Washington, he had 22, 15, 15, 24, and 25. He's averaged less there than he did here.

Mikey Eyssimont didn't even play a game with the Kings. He has 15 points in 55 career games.

I don't disagree. Just pointing out where offense improved after leaving. He never got the powerplay time here.


The criteria was a few seasons. If he stayed much longer, he'd either have one or two years of trending upward to the point it looks like an anomaly. If it was several years, it would be closer to trending downward.

So, there's literally a defense for anyone who put up more points.

What about Mike Amadio?

I think Amadio got better for sure, points and all-around game. I think he would do fantastic on this current Kings team, but like Lizotte he's gotta be in the right spot. He fits great in Vegas.

 

[Fishhead]

Here is a list of guys the Kings have traded away back through 2013. I didn't bother with the recent ones because nothing has really happened with them yet.

Austin Wagner
Frederic Allard
Brendan Lemieux
Quick
Faber
Markus Phillips
Brayden Burke
Imama
Cole Hults
Jeff Carter
Michael Amadio
Brad Morrison
Forbort
Martinez
Toffoli
Campbell
Clifford
Spencer Watson
Carl Hagelin
Jake Muzzin
Dominik Kubalik
Stepan Falovsky
Tanner Pearson
Andy Andreoff
Darcy Kuemper
Marian Gaborik
Nick Shore
Zac Leslie
Jeff Zatkoff
Nic Dowd
Mike Cammalleri (2017 version)
Ben Bishop
Dwight King
Peter Budaj
Erik Cernak
Tom Gilbert
Michael Latta
Nick Ebert
Scott Sabourin
Valentin Zykov
Christian Erhoff
Jordan Weal
Brian O'Neill
Martin Jones
Colin Miller
Roland McKeown
Linden Vey
Nic Delauriers
Hudson Fasching
Matt Frattin
Robbie Czarnik
Brandon Kozun
Ben Scrivens
Daniel Carcillo
Jonathan Bernier
Davis Drewiske
Simon Gagne
Andrei Loktionov
Kevin Westgarth

That takes it back to through 2013. How many of those guys have blown up elsewhere? Some of them never participated in the development program (Kubalik, Fashing, Faber, etc.) Bolded guys played on the NHL roster.

How many of them improved where it was obvious the Kings development was the problem? Note that this isn't supporting the development system, I don't think it's that great. I feel out of the 3D's drafting is by far the most important, followed by deployment, then development.

As I've said, I think the perception is worse than the actual reality. Unrelated, but it's pretty amazing how few good NHL players the Kings have traded over that timespan. The large majority of those guys never did anything or didn't improve much.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Of course not but theyr'e just more examples of guys who blew up elsewhere

I mean if we keep thinning the critera down to "not prospects and not guys in their prime and not guys who got PP time elsewhere" then sure Jeff Carter didnt' perform better after he went to the Pens

But the answer for 90% of the players who left is they upped their game/production.

Again not exclusive to the Kings alone but the reasons they left and were deployed better elsewhere than here is the problem. It's different if you let a guy go because you don't have a spot on a championship team. It's stupid if you let a kid go because you were busy playing a 35 year old in his last year on a 1st round exit team.

But yeah we make enough excuses then we can feel good about everything.

I don't think making a valuable trade is at all casting anyone off though. Letting guys get picked up on waivers or just failing to pick up their contracts is a better case for that.

 

[tny760]

Erik Cernak

 

[King'sPawn]

Here is a list of guys the Kings have traded away back through 2013. I didn't bother with the recent ones because nothing has really happened with them yet.

Austin Wagner
Frederic Allard
Brendan Lemieux
Quick
Faber
Markus Phillips
Brayden Burke
Imama
Cole Hults
Jeff Carter
Michael Amadio
Brad Morrison
Forbort
Martinez
Toffoli
Campbell
Clifford
Spencer Watson
Carl Hagelin
Jake Muzzin
Dominik Kubalik
Stepan Falovsky
Tanner Pearson
Andy Andreoff
Darcy Kuemper
Marian Gaborik
Nick Shore
Zac Leslie
Jeff Zatkoff
Nic Dowd
Mike Cammalleri (2017 version)
Ben Bishop
Dwight King
Peter Budaj
Erik Cernak
Tom Gilbert
Michael Latta
Nick Ebert
Scott Sabourin
Valentin Zykov
Christian Erhoff
Jordan Weal
Brian O'Neill
Martin Jones
Colin Miller
Roland McKeown
Linden Vey
Nic Delauriers
Hudson Fasching
Matt Frattin
Robbie Czarnik
Brandon Kozun
Ben Scrivens
Daniel Carcillo
Jonathan Bernier
Davis Drewiske
Simon Gagne
Andrei Loktionov
Kevin Westgarth

That takes it back to through 2013. How many of those guys have blown up elsewhere? Some of them never participated in the development program (Kubalik, Fashing, Faber, etc.) Bolded guys played on the NHL roster.

Plenty of the ones traded were well beyond their playing prime after getting traded.

But Amadio won a cup and looks good in another season. The Kings admitted that they screwed up with Cernak. Colin Miller produced once he actually got time in the NHL, including 41 points with Vegas in their inaugural year. Carter had a resurgence his first full season with Pittsburgh. Faber has already been Minnesota's No. 1 defenseman.

I think the bigger question is, in the same timespan, which players have improved under the Kings than with their previous franchises?

 

[kingsfan28]

I mean even before this season it was easy to find a long list of kings who performed better when they left

the list keeps growing and getting more damning

are you adding Quick to that list now?

 

[kingsfan28]

Wayne Simmonds had a high of 40 points here. Had multiple 40+ point seasons, including two 60-point seasons after he was traded.

Simmonds was not that player here, nor would he ever be. The Flyers put him on the top line and top pp unit. Here, he was a 3rd line player and occasional 2nd unit guy. He had 0 pp points in his one 40 point seasons here and 6 total in 3 seasons.

 

[kingsfan28]

I don't think Martinez got any better, just the same. Toffoli had one outstanding year, otherwise not that different really. He was going to get better regardless.

Nic Dowd had 22 points for the Kings in 16-17. With Washington, he had 22, 15, 15, 24, and 25. He's averaged less there than he did here.

Mikey Eyssimont didn't even play a game with the Kings. He has 15 points in 55 career games.


I think Amadio got better for sure, points and all-around game. I think he would do fantastic on this current Kings team, but like Lizotte he's gotta be in the right spot. He fits great in Vegas.

Thats the thing...Mike Amadio sucked as a King. There was nothing there and is a dime a dozen 4th liner who found a niche in Vegas after being waived 3 times. How bad do you have to be to not make the 2021 Sens team? He lost his job to Lizzo his last season as a King, and Lizzo outscored him each year since. The only thing he has over him is his size . The guy has had 1 good year, last year, on a stacked team.

 

[King'sPawn]

Simmonds was not that player here, nor would he ever be. The Flyers put him on the top line and top pp unit. Here, he was a 3rd line player and occasional 2nd unit guy. He had 0 pp points in his one 40 point seasons here and 6 total in 3 seasons.

Doesn't that make the point though?

 

[Fishhead]

Seconded.

Plenty of the ones traded were well beyond their playing prime after getting traded.

But Amadio won a cup and looks good in another season. The Kings admitted that they screwed up with Cernak. Colin Miller produced once he actually got time in the NHL, including 41 points with Vegas in their inaugural year. Carter had a resurgence his first full season with Pittsburgh. Faber has already been Minnesota's No. 1 defenseman.

I think the bigger question is, in the same timespan, which players have improved under the Kings than with their previous franchises?

The Kings have made some crappy mistakes, especially when DL was trying to extend the window. Of course they traded good players in Schenn and Simmonds, but that resulted in 2 cups, it was the right move. There is a reason those guys could bring back a Richards.

As far as the Kings, Trevor Moore for sure. Probably Grundstrom too, he got way better in Ontario than he was with the Marlies. Kevin Fiala's P/60 have went up both years so far with the Kings, one year a career high in point rate. Danault scored 52 goals in 5 years with MTL, and scored 45 in only 2 with the Kings. Arvidsson was completely falling off before he came to the Kings, now he's putting up great numbers again, including a career high in point rate. I think Durzi did just fine, even though he didn't do much in Toronto, he was loads better than when he arrived here. Would the above have happened if they stayed on their own teams? Maybe, but we can say the same about a lot of Kings players that have left. What about undrafted guys the Kings signed and developed, like Lizotte and Iafallo? Something to be said about how they turned out as well.

Has any of the regulars the Kings have brought in via trade gotten worse? Some stagnated, like Andersson. I can't think of any that totally sucked, except some of the really old ones they brought in.

That's why I think the perception that players that leave the Kings always do better is false. We only would notice the ones that do noticeably better. You aren't going to hear anything about guys like King or Shore, or guys they waived like Nolan or Clague (who I was high on), because they got worse after they were traded. Some of them had a brief moment of glory from their new situation but that was it.

Anyway, not going to belabor it because we all know the Kings have shortcomings with drafting and development, but it screams the grass is greener to me.

 

[kingsfan28]

Doesn't that make the point though?

Not really. Here in LA he was perfectly place, just like Clifford to some extent and that was his role. In other places that spot may be already fill and they try him somewhere else. Keeping Simmonds or Schenn wasn't going to win us any cups. My feeling was after the trade he went there with a massive chip on his shoulder to prove it was a mistake. I'm happy he did well there. As for the team at the time, Williams was a better player and was a perfect fit with Kopitar and Brown. The dude was clutch , we all saw it. Simmonds was not.

 

[King'sPawn]

Seconded.


The Kings have made some crappy mistakes, especially when DL was trying to extend the window. Of course they traded good players in Schenn and Simmonds, but that resulted in 2 cups, it was the right move. There is a reason those guys could bring back a Richards.

As far as the Kings, Trevor Moore for sure. Probably Grundstrom too, he got way better in Ontario than he was with the Marlies. Kevin Fiala's P/60 have went up both years so far with the Kings, one year a career high in point rate. Danault scored 52 goals in 5 years with MTL, and scored 45 in only 2 with the Kings. Arvidsson was completely falling off before he came to the Kings, now he's putting up great numbers again, including a career high in point rate. I think Durzi did just fine, even though he didn't do much in Toronto, he was loads better than when he arrived here. Would the above have happened if they stayed on their own teams? Maybe, but we can say the same about a lot of Kings players that have left. What about undrafted guys the Kings signed and developed, like Lizotte and Iafallo? Something to be said about how they turned out as well.

Has any of the regulars the Kings have brought in via trade gotten worse? Some stagnated, like Andersson. I can't think of any that totally sucked, except some of the really old ones they brought in.

That's why I think the perception that players that leave the Kings always do better is false. We only would notice the ones that do noticeably better. You aren't going to hear anything about guys like King or Shore, or guys they waived like Nolan or Clague (who I was high on), because they got worse after they were traded. Some of them had a brief moment of glory from their new situation but that was it.

Anyway, not going to belabor it because we all know the Kings have shortcomings with drafting and development, but it screams the grass is greener to me.

Danault as a UFA changes things, because we were looking exclusively at trades. Jacob Middleton is an NHL regular in Minnesota while being waiver fodder with LA. So, unless we want to go over every player signed and released, I'm keeping the scope of the discussion to trades. These are all the players the Kings traded for since the 2012-13 season:
Ben Scrivens
Matt Frattin
Keaton Ellerby
Anthony Stewart
Brayden McNabb
Jonathan Parker
James Livingston
Marion Gaborik
Steve Quailer
Andrew Crescenzi
Daniel Carcillo
Milan Lucic
Andrej Sekera
Jack Campbell
Brett Sutter
Kris Versteeg
Rob Scuderi
Vincent Lecavalier
Luke Schenn
Bokondji Imama
Jarome Iginla
Ben Bishop
Cameron Schilling
Peter Budaj
Tobias Rieder
Scott Wedgewood
Nate Thompson
Dion Phaneuf
Jordan Subban
Torrey Mitchell
Jussi Jokinen
Matheson Iacopelli
Carl Grundstrom
Sean Durzi
Pavel Jenys
Carl Hagelin
Tim Schaller
Tyler Madden
Trevor Moore
Christian Wolanin
Brendan Lemieux
Lias Andersson
Olli Maatta
Kevin Fiala
Nelson Nogier
Fredrick Allard
Troy Stecher
Brayden Burke
Tyler Steenbergen
Viktor Arvidsson
Pierre-Luc Dubois
Kevin Connauton
Hayden Hodgson
Cole Krygier
Nathan Schnarr
Zack MacEwen
Erik Portillo
Joonas Korpisalo
Vladislav Gavrikov

I agree that Moore, Grundstrom, and Campbell have definitely improved since they came to LA. But there are a lot of vets who did nothing when they came here. Most notably, Olli Maatta looked terrible when playing in LA after they traded for him, but he also looked much better when signed as a free agent with Detroit. But by and large, the people coming in didn't have their careers resuscitated with LA.

 

[Steve Zissou]

SJ lost tonight as well against CAR. Now 0-7-1 to start the season.

 

[johnjm22]

I don't think Martinez got any better, just the same. Toffoli had one outstanding year, otherwise not that different really. He was going to get better regardless.

Nic Dowd had 22 points for the Kings in 16-17. With Washington, he had 22, 15, 15, 24, and 25. He's averaged less there than he did here.

Mikey Eyssimont didn't even play a game with the Kings. He has 15 points in 55 career games.


I think Amadio got better for sure, points and all-around game. I think he would do fantastic on this current Kings team, but like Lizotte he's gotta be in the right spot. He fits great in Vegas.

I'm not disagreeing with your larger point. I'm just throwing names out there.

There's guys who've left the Kings and been better, or worse, or the same. It's not uncommon for guys to start clicking after they get change of scenery. Most of the time it doesn't really mean much. Anyone who's being objective can see this.

There's some posters around here who have BLuc Derangement Syndrome and can't be objective about this subject or much of anything else.

Regarding Simmonds, that's my big exception. It always got on my nerves how he was handled by TM.

 

[Fishhead]

There's guys who've left the Kings and been better, or worse, or the same. It's not uncommon for guys to start clicking after they get change of scenery. Most of the time it doesn't really mean much. Anyone who's being objective can see this.

But by and large, the people coming in didn't have their careers resuscitated with LA.

This is more or less the point, with every team across the league it's essentially a wash. Some guys do better, some do worse, but it's rarely a significant change. NHL executives know exactly what they are getting.

Usually, the teams that lose the most guys who light it up somewhere else are contenders, like Toronto or Tampa, or like the Kings were. They are going for it so young talent is always what gets the player you want.

But yeah, I don't think many guys who leave LA go on to all of a sudden turn into great hockey players, just like the guys who come here usually don't do the same.

 

[Statto]

Seconded.


The Kings have made some crappy mistakes, especially when DL was trying to extend the window. Of course they traded good players in Schenn and Simmonds, but that resulted in 2 cups, it was the right move. There is a reason those guys could bring back a Richards.

As far as the Kings, Trevor Moore for sure. Probably Grundstrom too, he got way better in Ontario than he was with the Marlies. Kevin Fiala's P/60 have went up both years so far with the Kings, one year a career high in point rate. Danault scored 52 goals in 5 years with MTL, and scored 45 in only 2 with the Kings. Arvidsson was completely falling off before he came to the Kings, now he's putting up great numbers again, including a career high in point rate. I think Durzi did just fine, even though he didn't do much in Toronto, he was loads better than when he arrived here. Would the above have happened if they stayed on their own teams? Maybe, but we can say the same about a lot of Kings players that have left. What about undrafted guys the Kings signed and developed, like Lizotte and Iafallo? Something to be said about how they turned out as well.

Has any of the regulars the Kings have brought in via trade gotten worse? Some stagnated, like Andersson. I can't think of any that totally sucked, except some of the really old ones they brought in.

That's why I think the perception that players that leave the Kings always do better is false. We only would notice the ones that do noticeably better. You aren't going to hear anything about guys like King or Shore, or guys they waived like Nolan or Clague (who I was high on), because they got worse after they were traded. Some of them had a brief moment of glory from their new situation but that was it.

Anyway, not going to belabor it because we all know the Kings have shortcomings with drafting and development, but it screams the grass is greener to me.

Often you have to look at context of the trade. If we are buyers or selling it makes a huge difference. So I’d expect any asset we are selling when we go after a piece to improve otherwise why would the other team do the deal. So with Fiala we are buying, with Richard’s we are buying… so teams will take players/pieces where they see upside. When we start retooling we are actively selling but usually for pieces with upside, be that picks or players. So in the case of the Richard’s and Fiala trades I’d absolutely expect to see the pieces we traded away improve unless the other GM is an utter idiot.

I know it’s not that simple, it never is, but the context of the scenario the player is moved out in matters in this conversation. That said I do share many of the development concerns so I’m not excusing those issues.

 

[BringTheReign]

Most notably, Olli Maatta looked terrible when playing in LA after they traded for him, but he also looked much better when signed as a free agent with Detroit. But by and large, the people coming in didn't have their careers resuscitated with LA.

Maatta played great when we had all the injuries and still made the playoffs in ‘21-‘22. He was bad the year before but so was the entire team. There were people on this board saying they wouldn’t mind if we kept Maatta by the end of his tenure.

And in more exciting news…
Quickie got a shutout! He now leads American-born goalies with 59 and only needs 14 more wins to lead there as well.

 

[tigermask48]

Wouldn't you have to go through and really analyze the context of every one of these players to determine the issue?

Take Matt Moulson, clearly an issue with his deployment. The talent was there, he proved elsewhere he could be a useful NHL player, but the Kings never played him to his strengths and thus he never succeeded in LA.

Then look at Cernak, the Kings just completely fumbled his development and misread his ceiling based off him saying he was scared.

On the positive side of things Campbell and Budaj saw big improvements and that was clearly a matter of taking and putting them in a position to succeed behind one of the beat defensive teams in the league at the time.

Like others said this is probably true of every other team in the NHL, but I think since about 2016 the Kings have struggled with almost all of the 3Ds with almost every player and it doesn't feel like it's getting better. For whatever that's worth.

 

[johnjm22]

Then look at Cernak, the Kings just completely fumbled his development and misread his ceiling based off him saying he was scared.

How did the Kings fumble his development?

 

[tigermask48]

How did the Kings fumble his development?

The Kings in their own words according to I think it was Yanetti (from the AtKM pod) second guessed his ability to play in Ontario after Cernak said he was "scared" playing in an AHL pre-season game. It sounded from the story told like he meant "nervous" but English isn't his first language, and the Kings sent him to juniors for the season for what they saw as a lack of confidence.
He fealt slighted by the demotion as he had played really well, and at some point quoting Yanetti "the relationship became un-salvagable".

It really one of the few instances I can think of were we know the story of how a player was mishandled.

 

[johnjm22]

The Kings in their own words according to I think it was Yanetti (from the AtKM pod) second guessed his ability to play in Ontario after Cernak said he was "scared" playing in an AHL pre-season game. It sounded from the story told like he meant "nervous" but English isn't his first language, and the Kings sent him to juniors for the season for what they saw as a lack of confidence.
He fealt slighted by the demotion as he had played really well, and at some point quoting Yanetti "the relationship became un-salvagable".

It really one of the few instances I can think of were we know the story of how a player was mishandled.

Looks liked it worked out pretty well. Probably was a good decision.

 

[Herby]

SJ lost tonight as well against CAR. Now 0-7-1 to start the season.

The Sharks look like they are poised to get semi-local guy Celebrini. Would be a nice 1-2 punch with him and Smith, but they are in for a long rebuild.

The Kings in their own words according to I think it was Yanetti (from the AtKM pod) second guessed his ability to play in Ontario after Cernak said he was "scared" playing in an AHL pre-season game. It sounded from the story told like he meant "nervous" but English isn't his first language, and the Kings sent him to juniors for the season for what they saw as a lack of confidence.
He fealt slighted by the demotion as he had played really well, and at some point quoting Yanetti "the relationship became un-salvagable".

It really one of the few instances I can think of were we know the story of how a player was mishandled.

I've noticed they are more open to talking about guys who have already left, which makes sense. We will probably get truthful responses about a guy like Turcotte and the huge mistakes made by the organization only after the player leaves.

What's interesting is that Cernak going to Erie over Ontario probably ended up being the best thing to happen to his career.

 

[King'sPawn]

Looks liked it worked out pretty well. Probably was a good decision.

The point is that he was mishandled, a relationship was broken, and he was moved for pennies on the dollar to get a player with the intent of making the playoffs.

I've noticed they are more open to talking about guys who have already left, which makes sense. We will probably get truthful responses about a guy like Turcotte and the huge mistakes made by the organization only after the player leaves.

It's something Yannetti has mentioned in one of the interviews - he doesn't want to disclose anything proprietary but still ongoing, but is okay with talking about past regime/decisions where it's just not how they see themselves doing things.