Around the league part 2

[King'sPawn]

I think the issue brought up is management hitching the wagon again to the same players who couldn’t do it alone in their prime years, doubling down with expensive middle-roster players to add to them, and not addressing the elephants in the room that needed to be for the cup teams to succeed.

As was said, you absolutely cannot take anything away from Anze and what he has done for this team, but there is a significant argument to be made that he just isn’t the emotional presence that gets the most out of the roster when it matters.

Zero playoff round wins for the “core” players without Richards, Stoll, Greene, Williams, Scuderi, Mitchell. That’s a pretty damning statistic.

But the Kings won with Brown when he wasn't "the emotional presence" either. He was also part of the core that "quit on Sutter."

If the question is "does Kopitar act as the type of leader who fires up the team?" The answer is clearly no. I won't dispute that. The frustrating part of this conversation is the blaming of Kopitar for the Kings not winning anything under his leadership, when previous management provided the supplemental leadership for the team to be successful.

So, why is keeping Kopitar as a leader the worst thing management has done, instead of, you know, just constructing a better team? Does anyone really think if Kopitar was the captain instead of Brown in 2012, they wouldn't have won a playoff series, with the same team composition?

Teams need fiery leaders just as much as they need subdued leaders. Having someone able to charge the team emotionally IS important, I agree. But having leaders who keep a relatively even keel in the face of adversity is also valuable.

Which is why the 2012-14 teams were so good. They had a healthy blend of emotional involvement and stoicism that would allow the team to amp themselves up as well as keep themselves in check.

 

[Trash Panda]

But the Kings won with Brown when he wasn't "the emotional presence" either. He was also part of the core that "quit on Sutter."

If the question is "does Kopitar act as the type of leader who fires up the team?" The answer is clearly no. I won't dispute that. The frustrating part of this conversation is the blaming of Kopitar for the Kings not winning anything under his leadership, when previous management provided the supplemental leadership for the team to be successful.

So, why is keeping Kopitar as a leader the worst thing management has done, instead of, you know, just constructing a better team? Does anyone really think if Kopitar was the captain instead of Brown in 2012, they wouldn't have won a playoff series, with the same team composition?

Teams need fiery leaders just as much as they need subdued leaders. Having someone able to charge the team emotionally IS important, I agree. But having leaders who keep a relatively even keel in the face of adversity is also valuable.

Which is why the 2012-14 teams were so good. They had a healthy blend of emotional involvement and stoicism that would allow the team to amp themselves up as well as keep themselves in check.

I think that keeping Kopitar is far from the worst thing managment has done, but how the changing of the guard has been handled that’s more of the issue.

The flip-flop from “rebuilding” to “trading a ransom for Dubois” and several measures in between has been maddening. The organization has had zero consistent direction, and now we are up against the cap hitching our wagon to Anze & Drew to suddenly find some playoff magic that they have never demonstrated on their own before. Maybe it works, but I just don’t see it.

Feels like we are on opposite ends of the same page here, FWIW.

 

[King'sPawn]

I think that keeping Kopitar is far from the worst thing managment has done, but how the changing of the guard has been handled that’s more of the issue.

The flip-flop from “rebuilding” to “trading a ransom for Dubois” and several measures in between has been maddening. The organization has had zero consistent direction, and now we are up against the cap hitching our wagon to Anze & Drew to suddenly find some playoff magic that they have never demonstrated on their own before. Maybe it works, but I just don’t see it.

Feels like we are on opposite ends of the same page here, FWIW.

Heck, if you're arguing the Kings bungled the rebuild, I'm there with you. My point of contention was this assertion that Kopitar doesn't have the makeup to be a leader on a successful team. He can, just as Brown was able to do so.

But like Brown, Kopitar needs other voices in the room to offset his temperment, and the Kings needed to, long ago, instill some developmental path or plan to have younger players take over, while still utilizing Kopitar's skills (both on and off the ice) to buoy the players.

It's why I was calling for Toffoli and/or Pearson to be moved after the Vegas sweep. They were young, talented players who didn't seem to take the reins at all as they were maturing. And I like them as players, but they weren't the leading youth the Kings needed to take over.

And I also don't think the Kings should be "going for it" this year. I was against the Dubois trade, and think the Kings should be focusing on bringing youth along. But, with the two-year extension, I'm guessing this is what we can expect for at least the next three years... unless of course Kopitar struggles in his final season and he can be given the Quick treatment.

 

[Johnny Utah]

The Leafs are 12 million over the cap. How are they going to solve this problem?

Tampa is 6 million over.

 

[tny760]

The Leafs are 12 million over the cap. How are they going to solve this problem?

Tampa is 6 million over.

that's not counting muzzin/murray and seabrook LTIRs, leafs have to clear a little over $2M and bolts pocket change

 

[kovacro]

The Leafs are 12 million over the cap. How are they going to solve this problem?

Tampa is 6 million over.

Leafs use LTIR for Murray and Muzzin. They are still roughly $2 million over so they will have to deal with that prior to the start of the season. Maybe they go into the season with a 21 man roster, not ideal though.

Bolts use LTIR for Seabrook leaving them just roughly $70k over the cap.

Edit: and I missed the post above, duh. My bad.

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

 

[Kurrilino]

Jesus Christ your takes are so goddamn painful to read.....by your logic, Eichel is not a #1 C...yet Vegas won the cup....

I don't get why you guys are always so obsessed to go to other teams or quote HoF players or whatever.

Kopitar blocks $10mill but is by no means a #1C.
How difficult is that to understand?

I follow the Kings and no other team, i really don't give a damn who is center at team x.
We have enough problems here as it is.

Again... according to all of you, we have a HoF center and a Noriss defender.... why is it that we are at the bottom of the league for 6 or 7 years or lately being slaughtered by an incompetent hockey team in playoff, with those Megastars at helm?
Really, why is that?

 

[Bandit]

"Around the league"

KOPITAR SUCKS!

Guess he got traded when I wasn't looking.

 

[Kudelski37]

I don't get why you guys are always so obsessed to go to other teams or quote HoF players or whatever.

Kopitar blocks $10mill but is by no means a #1C.
How difficult is that to understand?

I follow the Kings and no other team, i really don't give a damn who is center at team x.
We have enough problems here as it is.

Again... according to all of you, we have a HoF center and a Noriss defender.... why is it that we are at the bottom of the league for 6 or 7 years or lately being slaughtered by an incompetent hockey team in playoff, with those Megastars at helm?
Really, why is that?

Depth for the first few years and coaching for the last couple of years.

 

[Schrute farms]

I don't get why you guys are always so obsessed to go to other teams or quote HoF players or whatever.

Kopitar blocks $10mill but is by no means a #1C.
How difficult is that to understand?

I follow the Kings and no other team, i really don't give a damn who is center at team x.
We have enough problems here as it is.

Again... according to all of you, we have a HoF center and a Noriss defender.... why is it that we are at the bottom of the league for 6 or 7 years or lately being slaughtered by an incompetent hockey team in playoff, with those Megastars at helm?
Really, why is that?

It's really weird this fetish you have solely on Kopi and his salary. It's been for a couple years now that you go on & on. Yet nobody else is held to this same standard. I'd be ok with it if you also ranted about other guys on the team not performing at their level. You have DD set up on a tee the past few years (at $11M -- more than Kopi!) and yet you ignore it. You had Cal too and i don't ever recall any salary rants about him from you. It's just weird this thing with you and Kopi. It makes me think there is something else involved. The odd thing is that by all metrics, Kopi has actually pretty much performed at his cap hit the past few years. It's just the playoff wins. Heck, we have one of the highest paid head coaches in the NHL -- why no rants about him not being able to secure any playoff wins the past 4 years.

 

[Kurrilino]

It's really weird this fetish you have solely on Kopi and his salary. It's been for a couple years now that you go on & on. Yet nobody else is held to this same standard. I'd be ok with it if you also ranted about other guys on the team not performing at their level. You have DD set up on a tee the past few years (at $11M -- more than Kopi!) and yet you ignore it. You had Cal too and i don't ever recall any salary rants about him from you. It's just weird this thing with you and Kopi. It makes me think there is something else involved. The odd thing is that by all metrics, Kopi has actually pretty much performed at his cap hit the past few years. It's just the playoff wins. Heck, we have one of the highest paid head coaches in the NHL -- why no rants about him not being able to secure any playoff wins the past 4 years.

Have you aver read my posts?
I always pair those guys up for the same reason
Kopitar can't do the job of a #1C and Doughty isn't able to keep the opponent top players in check as #1 D but both demand the salary of players who would.

Same for Iafallo and Moore, they are not even close to their $4mill salary. Iafallo has been solved though

My personal opinion is that someone who wants to exceed Kempe's salary, must be able to exceed their role expectation as Kempe does.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I don't get why you guys are always so obsessed to go to other teams or quote HoF players or whatever.

Kopitar blocks $10mill but is by no means a #1C.
How difficult is that to understand?

I follow the Kings and no other team, i really don't give a damn who is center at team x.
We have enough problems here as it is.

Again... according to all of you, we have a HoF center and a Noriss defender.... why is it that we are at the bottom of the league for 6 or 7 years or lately being slaughtered by an incompetent hockey team in playoff, with those Megastars at helm?
Really, why is that?

Got it, so you don't follow any other teams, but you know 80% of them don't have a #1....

Tell me, if you don't follow any other team, how do you determine what is a # 1 and what is not? Do you just make shit up in your head? (rhetorical question there) if you have nothing to compare it to, HOW in the world are you comparing anything?

 

[YP44]

Apples and oranges here.

Kopitar was lucky that Carter was added to the team and 2nd line suddenly had 30 goal scorers while Toews drove the line


Yes it should.

Right toews had no help. come on man those hawks teams were deep as all hell. The 2014-15 was the first team that used the LTIR loophole to add Vermette in addition to Brad Richards.
Kopitar would have been a good conne smythe pick in 2014 but you're right he suck, and LA only won because of Jeff Carter.

 

[King'sPawn]

Right toews had no help. come on man those hawks teams were deep as all hell. The 2014-15 was the first team that used the LTIR loophole to add Vermette in addition to Brad Richards.
Kopitar would have been a good conne smythe pick in 2014 but you're right he suck, and LA only won because of Jeff Carter.

Who is arguing that Kopitar had help but not Toews? I'm pretty sure Kane has outscored Carter every season except one or two.

 

[Kurrilino]

Got it, so you don't follow any other teams, but you know 80% of them don't have a #1....

Tell me, if you don't follow any other team, how do you determine what is a # 1 and what is not? Do you just make shit up in your head? (rhetorical question there) if you have nothing to compare it to, HOW in the world are you comparing anything?

It was not me who stated that.
You should talk to YP44 who brought that up.

But to answer your question, i compare Kopitar and every other player on the Kings how they do compared to their salary and role.

Just for the case you never got across one of those posts.

I expect top line center 80+ points
Top line winger 30+ goals
Starter goalie GAA 2.7 and under

I get to those stats by mathematics, using 82 games and the race to 3 to determine the need to win a game.
So we need to score 246 and have to prevent the opponent to score 246 to win every game in theory. (Yes, i am aware that not every game can be won this is just mathematics)

On the Kings roster only 3 player play according to their role and salary.
Kempe, Copley and Anderson absolutely exceed their expectations and are criminally underpaid.
The 4th one was Vilardi.

I will measure every player against those players when it comes to salary requests.
1st do they play according to their role, 2nd what salary do they demand.
The fact that we only have 3 players who can match their role is mirrored by the facts that we were bottom of the league for many years and are slaughtered by a playoff team as soon as we reach the playoff.

Is this now clear for future conversations?

 

[YP44]

Who is arguing that Kopitar had help but not Toews? I'm pretty sure Kane has outscored Carter every season except one or two.

was commenting on this

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

It was not me who stated that.
You should talk to YP44 who brought that up.

But to answer your question, i compare Kopitar and every other player on the Kings how they do compared to their salary and role.

Just for the case you never got across one of those posts.

I expect top line center 80+ points
Top line winger 30+ goals
Starter goalie GAA 2.7 and under

I get to those stats by mathematics, using 82 games and the race to 3 to determine the need to win a game.
So we need to score 246 and have to prevent the opponent to score 246 to win every game in theory. (Yes, i am aware that not every game can be won this is just mathematics)

On the Kings roster only 3 player play according to their role and salary.
Kempe, Copley and Anderson absolutely exceed their expectations and are criminally underpaid.
The 4th one was Vilardi.

I will measure every player against those players when it comes to salary requests.
1st do they play according to their role, 2nd what salary do they demand.
The fact that we only have 3 players who can match their role is mirrored by the facts that we were bottom of the league for many years and are slaughtered by a playoff team as soon as we reach the playoff.

Is this now clear for future conversations?

Something is very clear, you have no flipping idea what the f*** you are talking about.....

 

[Kurrilino]

Something is very clear, you have no flipping idea what the f*** you are talking about.....

Sure, the constant brilliant performance and the standings of the Kings prove you absolutely right.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Sure, the constant brilliant performance and the standings of the Kings prove you absolutely right.

Nope, that doesn't prove me right, you wanna know what proves me right? Every time you open your mouth and speak gibberish

 

[YP44]

Sure, the constant brilliant performance and the standings of the Kings prove you absolutely right.

LA's play in the playoffs was very uninspiring, but the team had more regular season success in terms of points for as long as I can remember. this despite a shit for brains coach, but lets pile on Kopitar.
Just makes no sense to me.

 

[Kurrilino]

LA's play in the playoffs was very uninspiring, but the team had more regular season success in terms of points for as long as I can remember. this despite a shit for brains coach, but lets pile on Kopitar.
Just makes no sense to me.

The cup is won in he playoff not in a no competition AHL division

Nope, that doesn't prove me right, you wanna know what proves me right? Every time you open your mouth and speak gibberish

I see, the usual personal insult when you run out of answers

 

[Statto]

Wilson just signed for 45.5 over 7 years (6.5 AAV). Whilst I’d have loved him it feels like a lot of money especially with his recent injury issues. It’s not a horrible deal if he gets back to something like his best but the term may bite. Definitely a future LTIR candidate.

 

[YP44]

The cup is won in he playoff not in a no competition AHL division


I see, the usual personal insult when you run out of answers

you brought up the standings?

Wilson just signed for 45.5 over 7 years (6.5 AAV). Whilst I’d have loved him it feels like a lot of money especially with his recent injury issues. It’s not a horrible deal if he gets back to something like his best but the term may bite. Definitely a future LTIR candidate.

seems steep to me in # of years

 

[tny760]

Wilson just signed for 45.5 over 7 years (6.5 AAV). Whilst I’d have loved him it feels like a lot of money especially with his recent injury issues. It’s not a horrible deal if he gets back to something like his best but the term may bite. Definitely a future LTIR candidate.

ridiculous term, obvious LTIRetirement contract

can't believe the league just goes "yeah that's fine" and moreso can't believe GMs are allowed to write these abortions by ownership

 

[Kudelski37]

I think Wilson will be fine since this was his first season with injury issues....mostly due to an ACL issue from the prior playoffs.