Around the league part 2

[Kingfan1967]

Sitting in Oppenheimer yesterday and noticing... f***ing Sean Avery up on the big screen.

Apparently he was also in Tenet.

Never would have guessed that he would be in a speaking role in multiple Christopher Nolan films.

IMDB, 15 credits , some major films too (mostly just cameos - blink and you'll miss him)

 

[YP44]

This is the holy grail of cherry picking, no pun intended.
But hey, why not...

21-22
Kopitar 67 pts, -6, $10 mill
Bergeron 65 pts, +26, $4.375 mill
Do we see any difference here?

22-23 Base salary
McDavid $1mill
Kopitar $8 mill

why do we care about base salary? You are so stuck on Kopitar's salary.

Kopitar's numbers without his salary is #1C no? When Athletic does their roster breakdown it has him as a #1 borderline elite. So why are your numbers different?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Why in the hell are you guys engaging with Kurrilino in the first place? Especially about Kopitar, that's almost as bad as engaging with Sol about Quick.

 

[Kurrilino]

why do we care about base salary? You are so stuck on Kopitar's salary.

Kopitar's numbers without his salary is #1C no? When Athletic does their roster breakdown it has him as a #1 borderline elite. So why are your numbers different?

This was an answer related to cherry picking.
And no, Kopitar's numbers are not #1C if the target is to win the Stanley Cup
or related to his salary
He was fine at $6 mill. At $10 mill, he blocks to much salary for what he brings, this is my point.

Being #1C at the Kings doesn't mean you are a NHL #1

 

[Kingfan1967]

Jonathan Toews is a #1C who won 3 cups with a .83 ppg career
but Kopitar @ .88 ppg with 2 cups isn't?

 

[YP44]

This was an answer related to cherry picking.
And no, Kopitar's numbers are not #1C if the target is to win the Stanley Cup
or related to his salary
He was fine at $6 mill. At $10 mill, he blocks to much salary for what he brings, this is my point.

Being #1C at the Kings doesn't mean you are a NHL #1

If Dom's (which hates big valuecontracts and aginig player)model thinks this player is worth $10m that is better than you just claiming he is not a #1 C IMO. If Kopitar is not a #1C than 80% of the league is missing a #1C.

 

[King'sPawn]

I honestly pity people who make it a point to shit on Kopitar constantly. One day he'll be gone and they'll either realize what a great player they're missing, or they'll be too ignorant or stubborn to realize it.

 

[bland]

Jonathan Toews is a #1C who won 3 cups with a .83 ppg career
but Kopitar @ .88 ppg with 2 cups isn't?

Why would career numbers matter?

Anze's offensive production has been remarkably consistent, but the league wide totals have trended upward while his numbers have remained similar. He finished in the bottom third of #1c's in production last year, and his advanced age and over-usage has made it very difficult for him to remain impactful over the course of a series. He was abused badly by Edmonton in the playoffs.

You can simultaneously remain appreciative of his accomplishments and abilities while ALSO noting that it is going to be very, very difficult to succeed with him in his role.

And that isn't even addressing the bigger issue about how damaging it has been to retain so much of the Cup core over the years, and how that has limited any progress in key roles on the team.

There is also a very debatable point about whether he has the right type of personality to be the captain of a successful team.

 

[King'sPawn]

There is also a very debatable point about whether he has the right type of personality to be the captain of a successful team.

Did Brown?

 

[YP44]

I honestly pity people who make it a point to shit on Kopitar constantly. One day he'll be gone and they'll either realize what a great player they're missing, or they'll be too ignorant or stubborn to realize it.

The flames have been looking for a #1C since dealing Nieuwendyk was a constant thing in Calgry till Lndholm's breakout year. Not sure if still applies or not but shows how hard it can be

 

[bland]

Did Brown?

Not without six sets of training wheels.

The Cup Core most likely never wins a single round without the additions of players whose specialties were galvanizing their teammates into something stronger than the sum of their parts.

You want to know why I have that opinion? Because they have lost every single series without them. Before and after.

 

[YP44]

Maybe off topic, as it is not shitting on two of the best kings of all time, but anyone else love how the Terry contract make Fiala and Dubios deals look? Maybe I am missing something on Terry but I don't think he is worth $7M a year, must have had a strong case for the $8M arbitration number he went in with though.

Wonder what this will do for Zegras contract

edit: reading main board seems i maybe out to lunch and need to watch him more.

 

[King'sPawn]

Not without six sets of training wheels.

The Cup Core most likely never wins a single round without the additions of players whose specialties were galvanizing their teammates into something stronger than the sum of their parts.

You want to know why I have that opinion? Because they have lost every single series without them. Before and after.

So it would appear the issue is with management not bringing in the right players to complement the leadership. Yet here we are years later lamenting the imperfections of players for something they're not and never were and blaming an individual player for the Kings lack of success?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Maybe off topic, as it is not shitting on two of the best kings of all time, but anyone else love how the Terry contract make Fiala and Dubios deals look? Maybe I am missing something on Terry but I don't think he is worth $7M a year, must have had a strong case for the $8M arbitration number he went in with though.

Wonder what this will do for Zegras contract

edit: reading main board seems i maybe out to lunch and need to watch him more.

For what it’s worth the fiala contract was great value… was pretty underrated league wide(still is imo)

Id comfortably take terry over PLD tho…. A lot to love about terrys game… he’s shown he can be the trigger man/goal scorer despite his game being better suited as a play maker…. Has been easily the ducks best player over the last 2 season(and that does include zegras). I’d imagine he’s likely our next captain.

Honestly he reminds me fiala a bit stylistically. It’ll be interesting to see how much more room terry has to grow in terms of points as the forwards and dmen get better around him. 0 issues with the contract… I was hoping we could get him for 6.5…. But was comfortable in the 6.5-7.5 range

 

[Schrute farms]

Id comfortably take terry over PLD tho….

Hmm, not so sure i'd agree there. I'm not a PLD fan -- granted i haven't seen him play much. Still, assuming PLD stays at Center (which he absolutely should/will), PLD seems like a better option and someone to build upon (& pay $7M-8.5M for) over a winger like Terry. That's if (big if imo) PLD is motivated.

 

[Kurrilino]

View attachment 733084
If Dom's (which hates big valuecontracts and aginig player)model thinks this player is worth $10m that is better than you just claiming he is not a #1 C IMO. If Kopitar is not a #1C than 80% of the league is missing a #1C.

This is absolutely correct.
And this is why just a handful teams have a shot at the cup.
Just do the math, if the job of a #1 center is to drive offense, how do you plan to outscore the opponent in 82 games when the center is only scoring 65 points but blocking the salary of a guy who scores 90

There is a good reason why the Kings were bottom feeder for years until the other teams started complete rebuilds.
Since then we just float above the rebuilders, being destroyed as soon as we meet real teams in playoff.

The reality of our situation is that our #1C can't dominate and our #1D can't shutdown opponent top players.
Both of them asked for salaries that suggest they would be able to fill those roles.

Using projected made up statistics will not change anything regarding those issues.
BTW what the hell is a projected statistic?
Everything under 80+ points is not worthy of a #1 center regardless of whatever fantasy statistics this guys brings up.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Hmm, not so sure i'd agree there. I'm not a PLD fan -- granted i haven't seen him play much. Still, assuming PLD stays at Center (which he absolutely should/will), PLD seems like a better option and someone to build upon (& pay $7M-8.5M for) over a winger like Terry. That's if (big if imo) PLD is motivated.

True… I’ve grown sour over PLD in recent years(and I loved vilardi) but maybe he plays more motivated in LA and hits that next gear

 

[kingsholygrail]

This is absolutely correct.
And this is why just a handful teams have a shot at the cup.
Just do the math, if the job of a #1 center is to drive offense, how do you plan to outscore the opponent in 82 games when the center is only scoring 65 points but blocking the salary of a guy who scores 90

There is a good reason why the Kings were bottom feeder for years until the other teams started complete rebuilds.
Since then we just float above the rebuilders, being destroyed as soon as we meet real teams in playoff.

The reality of our situation is that our #1C can't dominate and our #1D can't shutdown opponent top players.
Both of them asked for salaries that suggest they would be able to fill those roles.

Using projected made up statistics will not change anything regarding those issues.
BTW what the hell is a projected statistic?
Everything under 80+ points is not worthy of a #1 center regardless of whatever fantasy statistics this guys brings up.

Why 80 points? Shouldn't it be 82+ points?

 

[tny760]

i'm not really sure i'm sipping the terry koolaid but he's their guy going forward alongside zegras so it's kinda like.. pay the kid. they need to lock guys like that down regardless whether they're entirely 100% worth it or not. more to him than william karlsson, maybe the goals were an anomaly as they were with karlsson, but i don't think a stable 60pts/season as supposed captain material for $7M is really that crazy with the way the cap is supposed to trend

i think it's different from fiala/PLD though, fiala was brought here as the ferrari in the garage, i think it's right to expect PLD to be a centerpiece every night. terry probably doesn't HAVE to be that guy with zegras flanking him so there isn't that inherent pressure to me. PLD NEEDS to deliver to provide value to that contract, terry potentially not fully living up to it isn't a travesty

 

[Kurrilino]

Jonathan Toews is a #1C who won 3 cups with a .83 ppg career
but Kopitar @ .88 ppg with 2 cups isn't?

Apples and oranges here.

Kopitar was lucky that Carter was added to the team and 2nd line suddenly had 30 goal scorers while Toews drove the line

Why 80 points? Shouldn't it be 82+ points?

Yes it should.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Apples and oranges here.

Kopitar was lucky that Carter was added to the team and 2nd line suddenly had 30 goal scorers while Toews drove the line


Yes it should.

Jesus Christ your takes are so goddamn painful to read.....by your logic, Eichel is not a #1 C...yet Vegas won the cup....

 

[kingsholygrail]

Apples and oranges here.

Kopitar was lucky that Carter was added to the team and 2nd line suddenly had 30 goal scorers while Toews drove the line


Yes it should.

So Edmonton has three #1 centers and can't get to the Final. Meanwhile Vegas won with a center that only scored 66pts.

Vancouver has a #1 center... Florida did not have a #1 center and neither did Boston. This is just telling me that centers are grossly overrated and not actually needed to win anything.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

So Edmonton has three #1 centers and can't get to the Final. Meanwhile Vegas won with a center that only scored 66pts.

Vancouver has a #1 center... Florida did not have a #1 center and neither did Boston. This is just telling me that centers are grossly overrated and not actually needed to win anything.

Dude, stop acting like hockey is a team sport....and it takes more than one player to win......anyone who has been following the game as long as Kurrilino knows that isn't true, its all about ONE player......every time.

 

[Trash Panda]

So it would appear the issue is with management not bringing in the right players to complement the leadership. Yet here we are years later lamenting the imperfections of players for something they're not and never were and blaming an individual player for the Kings lack of success?

I think the issue brought up is management hitching the wagon again to the same players who couldn’t do it alone in their prime years, doubling down with expensive middle-roster players to add to them, and not addressing the elephants in the room that needed to be for the cup teams to succeed.

As was said, you absolutely cannot take anything away from Anze and what he has done for this team, but there is a significant argument to be made that he just isn’t the emotional presence that gets the most out of the roster when it matters.

Zero playoff round wins for the “core” players without Richards, Stoll, Greene, Williams, Scuderi, Mitchell. That’s a pretty damning statistic.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

7 M a year is going to look really good on Terry in a few years

Feels weird right now probably because of the recent market but 7-8m contracts are the new middle class imo Edit meaning Kempe's 5.5 would undoubtedly have been more like 7.5 this year (not accounting for his production of course, keep in mind that deal was signed prior to massive goal explosion)