Around the league part 2

[SettlementRichie10]

Not many big markets are willing to wait 9 years to make the playoffs. AEG sure won't especially what they're currently paying Kopi and Drew. Whether you like it or not, AEG is stil calling the shots, they like winners.

Yeah, they sure picked one with Blake, eh?

 

[Herby]

Since Byfield was 2OA, and Fantilli will be 2OA, we'll never hear the end of it when AF comes in and has success right away for the Ducks.

He won't be in San Diego (sorry Glenn!), that will certainly help his long-term outlook.

btw, even as a huge Fantilli fan, I will make no excuses if he isn't productive by his third season, there is a reasonable expectation for anyone taken that high to be productive. You can even "bookmark it" if you are reading this Surfin Axl. I would be shocked if he doesn't exceed what Beniers did, even though he will be a year younger as a rookie.

Still holding out hope he wants to play 1 more year with his brother and joins them at the end of next season. But it makes no sense financially. Even if his family is well off.

 

[bland]

The celebration of Chicago's gross negligence of a player, while deliberately tanking via trading away talented young players, while also holding onto the spineless leaders who let the sexual assault happen is gross. But you do you. I just find it very telling you're forgiving of their past transgressions as long as they "want to win" and they made the moves you approve of.

You are the turd in tonight's punchbowl, KP.

You either have severe comprehension issues of late or are turning into just another run of the mill poster who takes 2 and 2 and ends up with 4000. You are better than that.

I chose not to respond to your ridiculous response about Kopitar that was filled with absurd nonsense that was never stated.

I think you may need to take a bit of a break here and reexamine just what you are trying to say - and why. These last few days have seen some pretty desperate posts.

 

[KingsFan7824]

A proper rebuild was done in Chicago, when Toews and Kane were in their mid-30's, and most importantly, in the final year of their contracts. With a team that had essentially missed the playoffs for 5 consecutive seasons before this one.

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

The Knights are showing what happens when you make the Oilers try and defend in a series. Game 2 got away from them because of the very early PP goals against, but through 3 games the Knights have controlled the vast majority of even strength, and are a +6 during that time. Nurse, Ceci, and Bouchard (3 of the Oilers top 4) have been an absolute disaster in their own end, and the Oilers goaltending remains extremely shaky.

McLellan's "strategy" could not have been more of a disaster, and literally helped the Oilers hide as many of their deficiencies as possible. He chose to give time and space to two of the best players in the world, and helped make Bouchard look like prime Paul Coffey. The Kings were holding on, and hoping to squeak out wins. They very rarely (maybe two or three periods over the series) looked like the better team who controlled the play.

 

[kinghock]

The Knights are showing what happens when you make the Oilers try and defend in a series. Game 2 got away from them because of the very early PP goals against, but through 3 games the Knights have controlled the vast majority of even strength, and are a +6 during that time. Nurse, Ceci, and Bouchard (3 of the Oilers top 4) have been an absolute disaster in their own end, and the Oilers goaltending remains extremely shaky.

McLellan's "strategy" could not have been more of a disaster, and literally helped the Oilers hide as many of their deficiencies as possible. He chose to give time and space to two of the best players in the world, and helped make Bouchard look like prime Paul Coffey. The Kings were holding on, and hoping to squeak out wins. They very rarely (maybe two or three periods over the series) looked like the better team who controlled the play.

Also, what a difference comparing to Kings D big and physical defenders can do against Edmonton.

 

[King'sPawn]

The Knights are showing what happens when you make the Oilers try and defend in a series. Game 2 got away from them because of the very early PP goals against, but through 3 games the Knights have controlled the vast majority of even strength, and are a +6 during that time. Nurse, Ceci, and Bouchard (3 of the Oilers top 4) have been an absolute disaster in their own end, and the Oilers goaltending remains extremely shaky.

McLellan's "strategy" could not have been more of a disaster, and literally helped the Oilers hide as many of their deficiencies as possible. He chose to give time and space to two of the best players in the world, and helped make Bouchard look like prime Paul Coffey. The Kings were holding on, and hoping to squeak out wins. They very rarely (maybe two or three periods over the series) looked like the better team who controlled the play.

Yep. It was a winnable series. And unfortunately it's being circled back to try again with a few minor changes.

On a side note, last thing about the Blackhawks winning the lottery:


Again, not rigged. But the Blackhawks shouldn't have been eligible for the lottery in my opinion.

 

[lumbergh]

Love it. Oilers are self destructing. Drsiatle finally gets called for slashing. He slashed a lot of Kings players and never was penalized.

Uhh, he was penalized. Game 3 April 21, McDavid scores on the power play, Draisaitl slashes Doughty, gets a penalty, Kempe scores to tie the game. Kings win in OT.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

But Washington's best players were players drafted as homegrown talents.

NYR and Vegas have never won anything. St. Louis is your one valid example.

Who are the most successful teams of the post lockout era?

Pittsburgh - 4 Cups
Chicago - 3 Cups
Tampa - 2 Cups
LA - 2 Cups
Colorado - 1 Cup (and will be yearly contenders)

All these teams sucked and added multiple star players through the draft, and in most cases with picks in the Top 8 of the draft.

You really don't think that drafting and developing star players is by far the most successful way to build a championship window?

Is this just the Surfin Axl belief that Blake is inventing a new and revolutionary way of building a cup winner?

And I showed you 5 ways it didn't work.....so.....that's 50/50 at best? Which means again THERE IS NO PROPER way to rebuild

 

[raswilliam]

 

[chris kontos]

how does kane get away with a 2 minute penalty on a butt end punch( as a side note that fist around the butt end of a stick is like getting hit with a pair of knucks) to pietrangelo's face after regulation time? there was a time when kane would have paid HARD for this on the ice. today its 2 minutes a few face washes- that foul must have been alot less nasty than it looked

 

[King'sPawn]

Embarassing

 

[LAKings88]

The Knights are showing what happens when you make the Oilers try and defend in a series. Game 2 got away from them because of the very early PP goals against, but through 3 games the Knights have controlled the vast majority of even strength, and are a +6 during that time. Nurse, Ceci, and Bouchard (3 of the Oilers top 4) have been an absolute disaster in their own end, and the Oilers goaltending remains extremely shaky.

McLellan's "strategy" could not have been more of a disaster, and literally helped the Oilers hide as many of their deficiencies as possible. He chose to give time and space to two of the best players in the world, and helped make Bouchard look like prime Paul Coffey. The Kings were holding on, and hoping to squeak out wins. They very rarely (maybe two or three periods over the series) looked like the better team who controlled the play.

The Oilers thrive on the pp. It's not necessarily a bad thing to be dependent on it as it is a big part of the game. LA needs it too. But timing of those PPs and the momentum gained from them are critical too. Oilers live and die on it a bit.

I wasn't a fan during the early 80's. Didn't even know about hockey. I can imagine how frustrating it would have been to go up against those stacked Oiler teams now.

 

[Bandit]

Embarassing

Yes, but i gotta admit i laughed. That's the kinda shit you say to your buddies while you're getting shitfaced watching the game on the couch, not something a "professional" says on TV.

 

[Herby]

And I showed you 5 ways it didn't work.....so.....that's 50/50 at best? Which means again THERE IS NO PROPER way to rebuild

The strategy of building by having multiple young stars develop into your organizations foundation has resulted in about a dozen championships since the lockout. The Rob Blake strategy of trying to win with older veterans and bringing in players through trade and FA worked with Anaheim (bringing in 2 HOF d-man and a HOF winger) and St. Louis.

The vast majority of teams attempt to rebuild through the draft, why is that? Could not be because everyone knows it’s by far the most successfully proven way to do it?

You also have to know there are 32 teams and 1 cup winner, so obviously there will be more teams failing than succeeding and that if I give you a dozen success stories and you give me as many or more failures that isn’t some gotcha moment?

What do you believe is a more successfully proven way to rebuild a team into a cup winner GBH. The way LA is doing it or the way Anaheim is? Just a one word answer is suffice.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

The strategy of building by having multiple young stars develop into your organizations foundation has resulted in about a dozen championships since the lockout. The Rob Blake strategy of trying to win with older veterans and bringing in players through trade and FA worked with Anaheim (bringing in 2 HOF d-man and a HOF winger) and St. Louis.

The vast majority of teams attempt to rebuild through the draft, why is that? Could not be because everyone knows it’s by far the most successfully proven way to do it?

You also have to know there are 32 teams and 1 cup winner, so obviously there will be more teams failing than succeeding and that if I give you a dozen success stories and you give me as many or more failures that isn’t some gotcha moment?

What do you believe is a more successfully proven way to rebuild a team into a cup winner GBH. The way LA is doing it or the way Anaheim is? Just a one word answer is suffice.

Well, for every dozen championships, there are 2 dozen that DIDN'T WIN THE REBUILDING WAY.....not only that, there are 5-6 teams that haven't won the rebuilding way in DECADES.....

It's not a gotcha moment, you only take it that way....

I believe there are MORE THAN ONE WAY TO BUILD A TEAM......imagine that......imagine thinking that there isn't just one way to do something..it's novel isn't it?

 

[KINGS17]

Well, for every dozen championships, there are 2 dozen that DIDN'T WIN THE REBUILDING WAY.....not only that, there are 5-6 teams that haven't won the rebuilding way in DECADES.....

It's not a gotcha moment, you only take it that way....

I believe there are MORE THAN ONE WAY TO BUILD A TEAM......imagine that......imagine thinking that there isn't just one way to do something..it's novel isn't it?

I will take the odds of one chance in three. Would YOU like some tea?

 

[Herby]

Well, for every dozen championships, there are 2 dozen that DIDN'T WIN THE REBUILDING WAY.....not only that, there are 5-6 teams that haven't won the rebuilding way in DECADES.....

It's not a gotcha moment, you only take it that way....

I believe there are MORE THAN ONE WAY TO BUILD A TEAM......imagine that......imagine thinking that there isn't just one way to do something..it's novel isn't it?

What has been the more successful way. The way Anaheim has done it or the way Blake is doing it?

It’s not that difficult a question to answer. But here. I’ll make it even more simple

A for Anahein
B for Blake

I truly can’t believe this is even a debate based on what we have seen the last 17 years. It’s completely unrealistic in a cap league to expect to build a sustained winner around veterans in their mid 30’s and FA signings and trading youth for older players.

Following this draft, where a scout told the Athletic “there are 6-7 guys who would have gone #1 last year” would have been a nice point to end the accumulate of youth part of it and start the next stage. But those two 1st round exits to the Oilers were just to much to pass up, I guess.

 

[johnjm22]

Regardless of what you do, your chances of building a SC winner are very low.

And they're getting lower all the time with 32 teams in the league.

Tanking and hoarding draft picks for 5 years is probably the approach that gives you the best odds, but it's unlikely to work out.

Lots of luck involved.

 

[King'sPawn]

The strategy of building by having multiple young stars develop into your organizations foundation has resulted in about a dozen championships since the lockout. The Rob Blake strategy of trying to win with older veterans and bringing in players through trade and FA worked with Anaheim (bringing in 2 HOF d-man and a HOF winger) and St. Louis.

The vast majority of teams attempt to rebuild through the draft, why is that? Could not be because everyone knows it’s by far the most successfully proven way to do it?

You also have to know there are 32 teams and 1 cup winner, so obviously there will be more teams failing than succeeding and that if I give you a dozen success stories and you give me as many or more failures that isn’t some gotcha moment?

What do you believe is a more successfully proven way to rebuild a team into a cup winner GBH. The way LA is doing it or the way Anaheim is? Just a one word answer is suffice.

I do think there is a valid path for what Blake has done, but you HAVE to 1) hit on your picks, particularly your high ones and 2) you have to develop them in a timely manner so they can take over the leadership of the team.

I call it the Detroit model, when Yzerman stayed with the franchise and groomed the next wave of leadership up until retirement and they eventually won another cup.

Where Blake and management is failing is they are still leaning on Kopitar and Doughty to be "the guys" and prospect integration into leadership is secondary. Granted, Kempe is in a top line role now, and people are looking at him more as needing to be productive, but I'm not hearing any dialogue about him stepping up as a leader, or carrying his own line, or similar demands. McLellan hasn't said anything like "(Kopi) isn't going to be here forever. We need more from A, B, C."

It just feels like management is only thinking about the next season.

So, I agree with you as far as why the building/rebuilding is being handled better in Anaheim. I just feel there's a certain step in the Kings process that's lacking and needs to be called out... because I'm sure the next response you'll get is "Well... the Kings... have Byfield, Kaliyev, Anderson, Spence, Clarke... what... do... you... want...?"

 

[Herby]

I do think there is a valid path for what Blake has done, but you HAVE to 1) hit on your picks, particularly your high ones and 2) you have to develop them in a timely manner so they can take over the leadership of the team.

I call it the Detroit model, when Yzerman stayed with the franchise and groomed the next wave of leadership up until retirement and they eventually won another cup.

Where Blake and management is failing is they are still leaning on Kopitar and Doughty to be "the guys" and prospect integration into leadership is secondary. Granted, Kempe is in a top line role now, and people are looking at him more as needing to be productive, but I'm not hearing any dialogue about him stepping up as a leader, or carrying his own line, or similar demands. McLellan hasn't said anything like "(Kopi) isn't going to be here forever. We need more from A, B, C."

It just feels like management is only thinking about the next season.

So, I agree with you as far as why the building/rebuilding is being handled better in Anaheim. I just feel there's a certain step in the Kings process that's lacking and needs to be called out... because I'm sure the next response you'll get is "Well... the Kings... have Byfield, Kaliyev, Anderson, Spence, Clarke... what... do... you... want...?"

The accumulation of youth stage should not end until you have at least two guys locked in as foundations to build around. This is the biggest part

Pittsburgh had Crosby (1OA) and Malkin (2OA)
Chicago had Kane (1OA) and Toews (3OA)
LA had Doughy (2OA) and Kopitar (11OA)
Tampa had Stamkos (1OA) and Hedman (2OA)
Washington had Ovechkin (1OA) and Backstrom (4OA)

The Kings picks in this range produced Vilardi, Turcotte, Byfield and Clarke. Does anyone project these guys to be like any of the guys above?

These teams used 1st round picks to add key secondary pieces like Fleury, Brown, Seabrooke and Carlson. Beyond that, you need to have some lucky hits outside the top of the draft like LA had with Quick, Pittsburgh had with Letang, Chicago had with Keith and Tampa had with Kucherov. Not only did the Kings ending their rebuild not produce the chance to draft big superstars at the top in 2022 and especially 2023, but it limited the chance to find secondary pieces as well.

 

[Herby]

delete

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

What has been the more successful way. The way Anaheim has done it or the way Blake is doing it?

It’s not that difficult a question to answer. But here. I’ll make it even more simple

A for Anahein
B for Blake

I truly can’t believe this is even a debate based on what we have seen the last 17 years. It’s completely unrealistic in a cap league to expect to build a sustained winner around veterans in their mid 30’s and FA signings and trading youth for older players.

Following this draft, where a scout told the Athletic “there are 6-7 guys who would have gone #1 last year” would have been a nice point to end the accumulate of youth part of it and start the next stage. But those two 1st round exits to the Oilers were just to much to pass up, I guess.

Sustained winner? Chicago 3 cups in 17 years is sustained? Tampa 2 cups in 17 years is sustained?

Tell me when Anaheim actually WINS SOMETHING....tell me when BUFFALO actually WINS something....tell me when OTTAWA actually WINS something.....

Tell me, if complete rebuilds are such a sure fire way, the best way...why hasn't BOSTON done it, VEGAS, NYR, TOR, CAR, EDM (to be honest, they've been trying for the past 15 years and still f***s it up)

Is the same scout that advocated for Lias Andersson a top 8 pick? or Olli Juolevi? Alex Nylander? Kravtsov? etc

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I do think there is a valid path for what Blake has done, but you HAVE to 1) hit on your picks, particularly your high ones and 2) you have to develop them in a timely manner so they can take over the leadership of the team.

I call it the Detroit model, when Yzerman stayed with the franchise and groomed the next wave of leadership up until retirement and they eventually won another cup.

Where Blake and management is failing is they are still leaning on Kopitar and Doughty to be "the guys" and prospect integration into leadership is secondary. Granted, Kempe is in a top line role now, and people are looking at him more as needing to be productive, but I'm not hearing any dialogue about him stepping up as a leader, or carrying his own line, or similar demands. McLellan hasn't said anything like "(Kopi) isn't going to be here forever. We need more from A, B, C."

It just feels like management is only thinking about the next season.

So, I agree with you as far as why the building/rebuilding is being handled better in Anaheim. I just feel there's a certain step in the Kings process that's lacking and needs to be called out... because I'm sure the next response you'll get is "Well... the Kings... have Byfield, Kaliyev, Anderson, Spence, Clarke... what... do... you... want...?"

It's not just having them...it's incorporating them, they did that with Byfield, Anderson, Vilardi, and they absolutely still have to do with Spence, Clarke, and Kaliyev....or move them out and do it with others, but they absolutely have to incorporate them into the plan.

 

[Brodeur]

Tampa had Stamkos (1OA) and Hedman (2OA)

I wish this was a more publicized story, but Tampa almost shot itself in the foot in 2008. They had just drafted Stamkos and wanted a young cornerstone D to pair with him. The guy they targeted? Andrej Meszaros.

Meszaros had put up decent numbers for the stacked Ottawa clubs, but the Senators were capped out. So Tampa was going to offer sheet Meszaros. Problem was that they already gave up their 2009 3rd rounder in a previous trade, so they couldn't put in an offer that would make Ottawa walk away. They tried to get the pick back but Pens GM Ray Shero didn't want to enable an offer sheet even if his team wasn't involved.

In the end, they worked out a trade. Incorrectly thinking their Cup window was still open, Ottawa got back veteran D Filip Kuba and a later 1st rounder for Meszaros. Tampa proceeded to stink and earned the #2 pick which they used on Hedman. But if they had their way, they would have given up the Hedman pick for Meszaros.