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Around the league part 2

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3 Cups in 17 years in a league with 30-32 teams is absolutely incredible, since your expectation is 1 cup every 30-32 years. Same with the Kings multiple cup wins and the Lightnings multiple cup wins.

There are 32 teams in the league GBH and only 1 team wins the cup. A better way to formulate which method has been most successful would be to take the number of cup champions since the cap and figure out how many have won the cup the way I am suggesting, vs the way that you and Rob Blake believe is best. But you won't like those results.

But I'm sure that will be met with the same response that Surfin Axl gave to the players in the AHL one, the data will be ignored and the response will be "That is history, times are changing, Blake is ahead of the curve, soon everyone will be doing it like Blake"

GoldenBearHockey said:
It's not just having them...it's incorporating them, they did that with Byfield, Anderson, Vilardi, and they absolutely still have to do with Spence, Clarke, and Kaliyev....or move them out and do it with others, but they absolutely have to incorporate them into the plan.
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The perfect way to incorporate the centers you drafted #2 and #5 and #11 in the previous three drafts was clearly to sign a 28 year old one to a 5 year deal for $25m when you already had a 33 year old signed for 3 more years at $10m.

The perfect way to incorporate a scoring line winger you used a high 2nd round pick on is to trade for scoring line wingers in back to back off-seasons, re-sign scoring line wingers in back to back seasons and convert two of your struggling center picks to be scoring wingers.

The perfect way to incorporate a LHD you used a 1st round pick on is to sign a 35 year old corpse and put him above him one season and then to trade a 1st round pick for a rental that you are now trying to sign to a long-term deal. All while having the 1st round LHD back in the AHL making 80k when he was in the NHL the previous two seasons making $900k.

The perfect way to incorporate a RHD that played very well for you as a 20 year old when he was forced into action due to an insane amount of injuries (thats all it took) is to bring back terrible Sean Walker and put the promising now 21 year old back to the AHL.

GBH, The Kings aren't trying to incorporate youth, they are trying to win another SC in a very small window of good years left for 11 and 8. Those two things aren't compatible. And as soon as Koopitar slows down, which could be next season or 2-3 years from now there is going to be a huge reckoning when there is nobody there to replace him. (and and Danault will be 31-33 at that time too). It's the return to the black hole.
 
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Herby said:
3 Cups in 17 years in a league with 30-32 teams is absolutely incredible, since your expectation is 1 cup every 30-32 years. Same with the Kings multiple cup wins and the Lightnings multiple cup wins.

There are 32 teams in the league GBH and only 1 team wins the cup. A better way to formulate which method has been most successful would be to take the number of cup champions since the cap and figure out how many have won the cup the way I am suggesting, vs the way that you and Rob Blake believe is best. But you won't like those results.

But I'm sure that will be met with the same response that Surfin Axl gave to the players in the AHL one, the data will be ignored and the response will be "That is history, times are changing, Blake is ahead of the curve, soon everyone will be doing it like Blake"



The perfect way to incorporate the centers you drafted #2 and #5 and #11 in the previous three drafts was clearly to sign a 28 year old one to a 5 year deal for $25m when you already had a 33 year old signed for 3 more years at $10m.

The perfect way to incorporate a scoring line winger you used a high 2nd round pick on is to trade for scoring line wingers in back to back off-seasons, re-sign scoring line wingers in back to back seasons and convert two of your struggling center picks to be scoring wingers.

The perfect way to incorporate a LHD you used a 1st round pick on is to sign a 35 year old corpse and put him above him one season and then to trade a 1st round pick for a rental that you are now trying to sign to a long-term deal. All while having the 1st round LHD back in the AHL making 80k when he was in the NHL the previous two seasons making $900k.

The perfect way to incorporate a RHD that played very well for you as a 20 year old when he was forced into action due to an insane amount of injuries (thats all it took) is to bring back terrible Sean Walker and put the promising now 21 year old back to the AHL.

GBH, The Kings aren't trying to incorporate youth, they are trying to win another SC in a very small window of good years left for 11 and 8. Those two things aren't compatible. And as soon as Koopitar slows down, which could be next season or 2-3 years from now there is going to be a huge reckoning when there is nobody there to replace him. (and and Danault will be 31-33 at that time too). It's the return to the black hole.
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Got it, so according to you, there is only one way to build a team.....amazing....Tell that to BUF, OTT, EDM, etc, all those team that have done it that way for DECADES.....and haven't won shit.....

I never said they WERE INCORPORATING YOUTH......I said it's one thing to have it...NOW THEY HAVE TO INCORPORATE IT.....didn't think it was THAT hard to figure out what I was saying...
 
Herby said:
No it won't be. I'd bet anyone, any amount they want that within 4-5 years they are back in the playoffs.

They have a lot of young high-end talent already and will be adding someone who will probably end up the best of them. And they will probably be picking in the Top 8 next season.
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I see them being a top team in probably 3-4 years. Them picking in the top 8 next season would be a huge surprise to me honestly. New coach that installs a disciplined system, Drysdale being healthy all year. Growth from MacTavish and Zegras. Possible ROY in Fantilli. Then you start integrating their other 3 defensemen over the next two years.

It's gonna be ugly.
 
Brodeur said:
I wish this was a more publicized story, but Tampa almost shot itself in the foot in 2008. They had just drafted Stamkos and wanted a young cornerstone D to pair with him. The guy they targeted? Andrej Meszaros.

Meszaros had put up decent numbers for the stacked Ottawa clubs, but the Senators were capped out. So Tampa was going to offer sheet Meszaros. Problem was that they already gave up their 2009 3rd rounder in a previous trade, so they couldn't put in an offer that would make Ottawa walk away. They tried to get the pick back but Pens GM Ray Shero didn't want to enable an offer sheet even if his team wasn't involved.

In the end, they worked out a trade. Incorrectly thinking their Cup window was still open, Ottawa got back veteran D Filip Kuba and a later 1st rounder for Meszaros. Tampa proceeded to stink and earned the #2 pick which they used on Hedman. But if they had their way, they would have given up the Hedman pick for Meszaros.
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There is always some luck involved in winning championships and building teams.

Kopitar somehow falling to #11, because of where he was born is one classic one. There are no banners in the rafters in LA without Kopitar.

Dean Lombardi traded for Ryan Smyth and his $6.2m cap hit in 2009. ($8.7m in todays cap). Had Smyth not been a selfish prick and wanted to return to EDM because they were going to give him a contract, the Kings wouldn't have had the cap space to trade for Jeff Carter in February of 2012.

The Kings attempted to sign multiple older UFA's, most notably Brad Richards. Had any one of these happened the Kings probably don't win any championships, they all aged incredibly poorly.

But I do love hearing and remember stories like this.
 
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GoldenBearHockey said:
Got it, so according to you, there is only one way to build a team.....amazing....Tell that to BUF, OTT, EDM, etc, all those team that have done it that way for DECADES.....and haven't won shit.....

I never said they WERE INCORPORATING YOUTH......I said it's one thing to have it...NOW THEY HAVE TO INCORPORATE IT.....didn't think it was THAT hard to figure out what I was saying...
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GBH, again only 1 champion every year. There is going to be more failure than success no matter what. But that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of teams that have won have been built a certain way.

I am a bit shocked that we are now 4 posts into asking it, and you can't even answer a simple question. What has been the most successful way to build a winner in the NHL? Is it not through adding pieces high in the draft until ready to turn the page?

I have always defended you, but refusing to answer a simple question is very Surfin Axl of you.

How are they going to incorporate youth onto a roster that is built to win in a very small window around a 36 and 34 year old? What moves have they made since the summer of 2021 tell you they have any desire to incorporate youth at the expense of weakening the team. There is a reason they have signed and traded for all these vets. Teams trying to incorporate youth are not signing big money vet FA's and trading 1st round picks for veterans. They have a plan. How do you not see what that plan is?
 
Herby said:
But I do love hearing and remember stories like this.
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Some Devils luck:

June 1991: Lou pulled off a heist and got Toronto's first rounder in a trade in 1989 for defenseman Tom Kurvers. That trade might have been easier to stomach because that was the season Slava Fetisov was finally allowed to leave the USSR. San Jose was supposed to enter the league in 1992 but they pushed their way in 1991 thinking they'd be awarded the Eric Lindros pick. Instead they were given #2 which bumped Toronto's pick to #3. If San Jose hadn't entered early, maybe New Jersey takes Pat Falloon instead of Scott Niedermayer?

July 1991: Brendan Shanahan signs a Group I offer sheet with St. Louis. Devils have no right to match, but are entitled to the "equalization" process where St. Louis gives them back assets. If the two sides didn't agree, then it'd go before an arbitrator. New Jersey asked for Scott Stevens. St. Louis offered Rod Brind'Amour, a young unproven Curtis Joseph, and some mid-round picks. The arbitrator sided with New Jersey. Apparently if St. Louis had included their starting goalie Vincent Riendeau instead, the arbitrator would have chosen their offer.

June 1995: The Devils are fresh off winning the Cup but still get to pick #18 instead of being bumped to the end of the round. Petr Sykora was expected to be a top 10 pick but teams got spooked by a shoulder injury. Also Radek Bonk had a terrible rookie season after lighting up the IHL during his draft year, so there was some skepticism about Sykora playing in the IHL. Sykora falls into the Devils laps and helps them to the 2000 Cup.

March 2000: Vladimir Malakhov had become hated in Montreal because he was spotted a ski resort during the All Star break but had missed the entire season with a knee injury. When he came back, Montreal went on a winning streak to get back in the playoff hunt. But the streak came to an end and the crowd decided to scapegoat Malakhov who did his best Patrick Roy impersonation and egged on the fans. Instead of waiting until the trade deadline, Montreal decided they had to deal Malakhov immediately.

Simultaneously, Lyle Odelein requested a trade from the Devils because he hated head coach Robbie Ftorek that much. So the Devils got Malakhov and traded Odelein. Ftorek would be fired a few weeks later, so if that happened first maybe Odelein rescinds his request?

The timing was fortunate since Philadelphia thought it was getting Ray Bourque from Boston. But the Bruins opted to send him to Colorado instead. But with Malakhov already traded, the Flyers had no fall back option. In 2004, the Devils tried to get Malakhov back but Glen Sather refused to do them any favors. Instead he traded Malakhov to Philly and he played great as the Flyers bounced the Devils in the opening round.

July 2002: Lou badly wanted to keep Bobby Holik. Eventually he offered 5 years, 40 million. Holik would have accepted that months earlier, but now his pride/ego was bruised. Holik took 5/45 from the Rangers instead. Maybe the Devils still win the 2003 Cup with Holik but that would have been an ugly buyout in 2005.
 
Herby said:
GBH, again only 1 champion every year. There is going to be more failure than success no matter what. But that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of teams that have won have been built a certain way.

I am a bit shocked that we are now 4 posts into asking it, and you can't even answer a simple question. What has been the most successful way to build a winner in the NHL? Is it not through adding pieces high in the draft until ready to turn the page?

I have always defended you, but refusing to answer a simple question is very Surfin Axl of you.

How are they going to incorporate youth onto a roster that is built to win in a very small window around a 36 and 34 year old? What moves have they made since the summer of 2021 tell you they have any desire to incorporate youth at the expense of weakening the team. There is a reason they have signed and traded for all these vets. Teams trying to incorporate youth are not signing big money vet FA's and trading 1st round picks for veterans. They have a plan. How do you not see what that plan is?
Click to expand...

I guess we have completely different ideas of incorporating youth.....Byfield nearly a full year on the top line, Vilardi, tweener, some 2nd, mostly 3rd good minutes, PP1 etc, Kupari, mostly 4th line, but trust with the PK, Anderson trusted as LHD1,

If that's not incorporating youth, WTF is? Is it all they could have done, nope.....do they need to more yep, next year, absolutely....

The best way is to pray to god some of your picks pan out, and add complementary pieces....

But show me the last team that won with DRAFT PICK #1 and CAP SPACE......( a bit hyperbolic there) but the point remains, again, MORE than one way to build a team, do you really think NYR did a proper rebuild? Boston? Vegas? Carolina? out of the teams that are in the playoffs, NJ is probably the only one who has....
 
How do you guys like the Carolina white uniforms with the red helmets. Kind of reminds me of the old Soviet Union uniforms. I like'em.
 
Herby said:
The accumulation of youth stage should not end until you have at least two guys locked in as foundations to build around. This is the biggest part

Pittsburgh had Crosby (1OA) and Malkin (2OA)
Chicago had Kane (1OA) and Toews (3OA)
LA had Doughy (2OA) and Kopitar (11OA)
Tampa had Stamkos (1OA) and Hedman (2OA)
Washington had Ovechkin (1OA) and Backstrom (4OA)

The Kings picks in this range produced Vilardi, Turcotte, Byfield and Clarke. Does anyone project these guys to be like any of the guys above?

These teams used 1st round picks to add key secondary pieces like Fleury, Brown, Seabrooke and Carlson. Beyond that, you need to have some lucky hits outside the top of the draft like LA had with Quick, Pittsburgh had with Letang, Chicago had with Keith and Tampa had with Kucherov. Not only did the Kings ending their rebuild not produce the chance to draft big superstars at the top in 2022 and especially 2023, but it limited the chance to find secondary pieces as well.
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Blake went all in without looking at his hold cards. Can that pay off? Sure, but the chance of success is extremely low. You need to know what you have before deciding it's worth betting after the flop (or in this case, take the next step in the rebuild). Blake went full Maverick, and didn't have the ace:

 
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Blake needs to call up the Devils and offer up a slightly used Cal P. Their goaltending has been brutal against the Canes.

LOL
 
Sleeping Dog said:
Blake needs to call up the Devils and offer up a slightly used Cal P. Their goaltending has been brutal against the Canes.

LOL
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I don't think any Gm is would take Cal and his salary. Blake really messed up om this one.
 
johnjm22 said:


Wish I had a link to the full video

EDIT: full interview https://post.futurimedia.com/chumam/playlist/listen-43538.html
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The Athletic has and article similar to this with Stoll and Scott Hartnell about what it takes to comeback down 3-0.

theathletic.com

How can the Maple Leafs beat Florida? Players in the NHL's biggest comebacks explain

Ex-King Jarret Stoll and ex-Flyer Scott Hartnell explain how teams they were on came back from big postseason deficits to win their series.
theathletic.com theathletic.com
 
SettlementRichie10 said:
Yeah, they sure picked one with Blake, eh?
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But wasn't he when he was promoted? Part of the cup winning team as an Av. Hired as assist gm under DL before the 2013 -2014 cup run. Was gm of the Monarchs Calder Cup winning team the next season, the only one in team history. Continued to works as assist gm under DL until his firing. Then got promoted to gm. Chaseman and AEG looked at that resume and naturally promoted him. It's a solid resume. My choice would've been Futa, but he left after the 2015 season.
 
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