Around the League 2018-2019 Part 3

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Not too much chatter regarding Kyle Connor. I’m interested to see how that plays out with the Jets understandably focusing toward Laine and trying to lock him up.


Jets have 23 M in CAP space with 14 on contract. Laine and Conner are 2 that should get inked. Le Brun said teams are calling Conner

Flames have 14 M in space with Tzachuk among others to get signed. Bennett could be moved, Neal's deal is awful..

Canes - Per Frank Seravalli, Aho believed to be seeking 5 yrs. at 9.5 per. LeBrun says although teams have been calling on Aho, he wants to stay with the Canes. LeBrun notes that talks between Aho and the Canes have not gone well and as much as he'd like to stay, the right offer might take him away

Leafs - Dreger said Marner getting a lot of calls.

Bolts- 10.6M in space with 16 contracts signed. I think Pointe could get an offer sheet. IMO he's turning into one of the top 2 way players in the game and perhaps on a team with Stamkos and Kuchervo, that is lost . I love everything about his game . WOnder what they'll do with Stralman
 
Good for him, not so good for Philly.


Disagree. I like Elliott as long as he's used correctly. He was good last year, in some cases the only reason they won. And having seen him in post game interviews, it's easy to see why he's so well liked. You can see the leader in him and despite some games (far too many) when the team was a crapshow in front of him, he took the blame, using 'I " should have been better. Too many players when they screwed up /didn't contribute/.lazy, etc. when questioned hide behind the convenient 'we'.
He's a good backup, a good leader and great teammate (by all accounts), and it's a good contract, one of the few things Fletcher has done right.
 
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The Toews and Kane contracts overall have been pretty good up to this point. We'll see if that continues to be the case. If anything Kane may be underpaid.

Chicago looks reasonably well positioned moving forward. They have cap space, some nice young players, a good prospect pool, and all their picks intact..

The biggest problem they have is Seabrook.
 
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Hmm, seems like with this many exceptions there is no hard and fast rule about contract amounts. Especially when we are discussing raw numbers and not CH%.

There isn't a hard and fast rule. It generally doesn't work.

The primary exception is Crosby/Malkin which just having those two is an exception. They won their first one with Malkin at sub-$1MM on the back-end of back-to-back SCF appearances and then couldn't get back there once Malkin got paid. It took until, like you said, the cap kept going up and for Crosby/Malkin to sign pretty team-friendly contracts in the context of how much their cap increased over their previous contract as Crosby MAINTAINED the same hit and Malkin's only increased by $800M.

Kopitar's hit went up by $3.2MM. Doughty's by $4MM hahaha.

That's a very good NHL player, or Kovalchuk if you are Rob Blake, that the Kings are down while we are talking NHL minimum for the difference between Crosby and Malkin's raises. Of course, Pittsburgh couldn't win on Malkin and Crosby's 2nd contracts but were able to do so on their 3rd since the cap continued to climb and they basically maintained the cap hit they had since 2010.

You're right though: there is no set-in-stone rule stating it won't work. It isn't surprising though that the Kings are in horrible shape while paying 11 & 8 since everyone could see the lack of cheap contributors in the pipeline and the team was pretty much maxed out from paying everyone else.

The cap will continue to increase so the impact of 11 and 8's hits will diminish but they are obviously not winning a thing at the current percentage of the cap they are taking up.

Crosby and Malkin were both 29 and 30 in their last two Cup wins. Doughty and Kopitar and 29 and 31 right now. We have to pray that these guys are still extremely good at-minimum--32 and 34. It can happen but the chances are highly unlikely that they are plus the cavalry arrives.

As for Chara, Boston couldn't win a thing during the length of that contract and finally won it in the last year of the deal once it wasn't such a drain. He then signed for a lower cap hit on his next deal!

Ovechkin finally wins it but, again, it is near the end of the deal when the cap has risen. Washington finally put it together and has Backstrom and Kuznetsov on great deals. I've gone over how many 1st round picks they have on that team when arguing with tomd about why the Kings need to rebuild. Regardless, everyone on that team and Ovechkin at $9.5MM or 11/8 at $10MM and $11MM?

You're right that it isn't "Can't have a $10MM contract" but that number is pretty much coming from Kane/Toews. The cap has increased so the number should increase. Even then, I understand that it is arbitrary as it could still work; however, it is going to take special circumstances.

Kopitar and Doughty weren't that special circumstance: not for their age and where the franchise was at. Now, even with their age, they could have been for another team but they were too old and the Kings prospect pool was too thin. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that the prospects can be impactful by 2022 and beyond. Some lottery luck next season would be a godsend.
 
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Yes, because rarely do the players who have taken that kind of money provide the performance which should associated with those contracts.

The following players made more than 10M last season:

Connor McDavid, John Tavares, Carey Price, Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Jack Eichel, Anze Kopitar.

I'd argue MacDavid, Tavares, Kane and Eichel were worth it last season. So, 4 out of 7 doesn't seem to be all that rare.
 
The Toews and Kane contracts overall have been pretty good up to this point. We'll see if that continues to be the case. If anything Kane may be underpaid.

Chicago looks reasonably well positioned moving forward. They have cap space, some nice young players, a good prospect pool, and all their picks intact..

The biggest problem they have is Seabrook.

I think Crawford's help and lack of a #2 is a bigger issue than Seabrook. When Crawford is in he can mask Seabrook, he was not it exposed Seabrook. I do not trust Delia.
 
There isn't a hard and fast rule. It generally doesn't work.

The primary exception is Crosby/Malkin which just having those two is an exception. They won their first one with Malkin at sub-$1MM on the back-end of back-to-back SCF appearances and then couldn't get back there once Malkin got paid. It took until, like you said, the cap kept going up and for Crosby/Malkin to sign pretty team-friendly contracts in the context of how much their cap increased over their previous contract as Crosby MAINTAINED the same hit and Malkin's only increased by $800M.

Kopitar's hit went up by $3.2MM. Doughty's by $4MM hahaha.

That's a very good NHL player, or Kovalchuk if you are Rob Blake, that the Kings are down while we are talking NHL minimum for the difference between Crosby and Malkin's raises. Of course, Pittsburgh couldn't win on Malkin and Crosby's 2nd contracts but were able to do so on their 3rd since the cap continued to climb and they basically maintained the cap hit they had since 2010.

You're right though: there is no set-in-stone rule stating it won't work. It isn't surprising though that the Kings are in horrible shape while paying 11 & 8 since everyone could see the lack of cheap contributors in the pipeline and the team was pretty much maxed out from paying everyone else.

The cap will continue to increase so the impact of 11 and 8's hits will diminish but they are obviously not winning a thing at the current percentage of the cap they are taking up.

Crosby and Malkin were both 29 and 30 in their last two Cup wins. Doughty and Kopitar and 29 and 31 right now. We have to pray that these guys are still extremely good at-minimum--32 and 34. It can happen but the chances are highly unlikely that they are plus the cavalry arrives.

As for Chara, Boston couldn't win a thing during the length of that contract and finally won it in the last year of the deal once it wasn't such a drain. He then signed for a lower cap hit on his next deal!

Ovechkin finally wins it but, again, it is near the end of the deal when the cap has risen. Washington finally put it together and has Backstrom and Kuznetsov on great deals. I've gone over how many 1st round picks they have on that team when arguing with tomd about why the Kings need to rebuild. Regardless, everyone on that team and Ovechkin at $9.5MM or 11/8 at $10MM and $11MM?

You're right that it isn't "Can't have a $10MM contract" but that number is pretty much coming from Kane/Toews. The cap has increased so the number should increase. Even then, I understand that it is arbitrary as it could still work; however, it is going to take special circumstances.

Kopitar and Doughty weren't that special circumstance: not for their age and where the franchise was at. Now, even with their age, they could have been for another team but they were too old and the Kings prospect pool was too thin. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that the prospects can be impactful by 2022 and beyond. Some lottery luck next season would be a godsend.

Do you know how hard it is to win a cup?

Only 1 team does it every season, so providing exceptions for every team that has won the cup with a contract that big and then concluding that due to those exceptions it generally doesn't work is just not a fair argument. You basically are excluding any super star players, which are some of the exact players who end up with these contracts.

Also, blaming Chara's contract as the reason they only won one cup is the single most asinine argument I have ever heard. Seriously, what kind of expectations do you have? You are out of your mind with that argument.
 
every cup team is constructed differently but what is evident to me is that depth is needed. Having a large % of the cap tied up to a few players definitely hurts the ability to buy that depth, however it can be overcome by having players on entry level deals contribute in meaningful ways. that was supped to be Vilardi for LA last year.

20-21 that will hopefully be Turcotte, JAD, Kupari,
 
The Toews and Kane contracts overall have been pretty good up to this point. We'll see if that continues to be the case. If anything Kane may be underpaid.

Chicago looks reasonably well positioned moving forward. They have cap space, some nice young players, a good prospect pool, and all their picks intact..

The biggest problem they have is Seabrook.
I dunno, the Toews deal seems pretty problematic to me. Outside of last season his individual performance hasn't measured up.
 
The difference between winning a Cup and not isn't an extra million dollars to your two best players. Such a fallacy and I'm sick of it.

Reminds me of the thread saying "no team has won the cup with a player making 10m or more" when Ovechkin had literally just won with a 9.5 hit. It's an arbitrary bull**** number meant to slam our players and nothing more. Get over it.

So then you would be just fine if Kopitar and Doughty were making $12 million a piece? Why not max?

You can’t just be flippant and say star contracts do not matter. An extra million here, an extra million there starts to add up, then all of a sudden you’re a top heavy aging team with no depth like the LA Kings and light years away from contention.

It’s not JUST the salary structure that sunk the Kings, nor was it JUST salary structure that sunk Chicago. But it was one of several factors, all interlinked.
 
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So then you would be just fine if Kopitar and Doughty were making $12 million a piece? Why not max?

You can’t just be flippant and say star contracts do not matter. An extra million here, an extra million there starts to add up, then all of a sudden you’re a top heavy aging team with no depth like the LA Kings and light years away from the contention.

It’s not JUST the salary structure that sunk the Kings, nor was it JUST salary structure that sunk Chicago. But it was one of several factors, all interlinked.
Generally, what happens is the next tier on your roster when it's time to negotiate comes in and says, "Well, so-and-so gets $10M+, why can't I have $6M? I am not that much worse than so-and-so."
 
In discussing Luongo's retirement on Hockey Central they noted that (although it's likely this would never happen) if Shea Weber retires with 1 year left on his contract, the Preds CAP recapture is 24.5 Million...
 
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Generally, what happens is the next tier on your roster when it's time to negotiate comes in and says, "Well, so-and-so gets $10M+, why can't I have $6M? I am not that much worse than so-and-so."

That is an issue and the opposite was a few years ago when the first GM made the mistake of overpayment for 3rd line forwards, to which to top 6 forwards eyed that deal and pointed out if 'he's getting that, I'm worth XM more'. And so it began.
And I will be cringing every time I see Hayes losing faceoffs (42% career average) As a mid level forward, stealing a salary.
 
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In discussing Luongo's retirement on Hockey Central they noted that (although it's likely this would never happen) if Shea Weber retires with 1 year left on his contract, the Preds CAP recapture is 24.5 Million...
Weber only makes $6M a season for three more years. After that it's four more years with $3M the first season, and only a $1M for each of the last three seasons. I wonder what the recapture penalty is if he retires before the last three or four seasons.
 
Weber only makes $6M a season for three more years. After that it's four more years with $3M the first season, and only a $1M for each of the last three seasons. I wonder what the recapture penalty is if he retires before the last three or four seasons.
I mell LTIR in Weber's future.
 
Do you know how hard it is to win a cup?

Only 1 team does it every season, so providing exceptions for every team that has won the cup with a contract that big and then concluding that due to those exceptions it generally doesn't work is just not a fair argument. You basically are excluding any super star players, which are some of the exact players who end up with these contracts.

Also, blaming Chara's contract as the reason they only won one cup is the single most asinine argument I have ever heard. Seriously, what kind of expectations do you have? You are out of your mind with that argument.

Of course it is hard. I also understand that teams are always going to sign their own superstars. Doesn't mean it is always smart.

The primary exceptions here are Crosby. Malkin. Ovechkin. Talking six Hart Trophies. Contracts in question handed out at younger ages than 11/8. These aren't just superstars, these are legends.

I'm not blaming Chara's contract for why they only won one, but I am saying they didn't win one when his $7.5MM was a larger percentage of the cap than when he signed it and it didn't happen until the final year of his deal. So it got to ~12%: Kopitar and Doughty are at 25%. Tarasenko/O'Reilly/Pieterangelo are at 27%.

If it is an unfair argument then I apologize. I'm saying there isn't a hard and fast rule but I'm also saying it usually doesn't work. You counter with only one team wins it but, anyways, half the winners this decade have a percentage over 12%. Well, one of those teams is the one with Crosby and Malkin on it so that is an unfair argument because they are incomparable to any other duo taking up that much cap.

In the end, none of this matters because the guys will continue to get paid and good for them. Get those dollars. If you are going to sign one of these giant term/dollar deals, you've got to be fully aware of the age of the player and the makeup of your roster. At the same time, you got to have good players to win and the market is set so, what do you do? Well, every GM just hands the money out without thinking. It would be refreshing to see someone buck that trend just to see how it would work.
 
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So then you would be just fine if Kopitar and Doughty were making $12 million a piece? Why not max?

You can’t just be flippant and say star contracts do not matter. An extra million here, an extra million there starts to add up, then all of a sudden you’re a top heavy aging team with no depth like the LA Kings and light years away from contention.

It’s not JUST the salary structure that sunk the Kings, nor was it JUST salary structure that sunk Chicago. But it was one of several factors, all interlinked.
Exactly, these were the wrong deals at the wrong time given the state of the existing rosters. I was willing to give the idea of handing out deals like this might work on 2nd contracts like (e.g. McDavid and Draisaitl), but it doesn't seem to be working for Edmonton. That may not be due to those contracts, but due to inept management.
 
I'm saying there isn't a hard and fast rule but I'm also saying it usually doesn't work. You counter with only one team wins it but, anyways, half the winners this decade have a percentage over 12%. Well, one of those teams is the one with Crosby and Malkin on it so that is an unfair argument because they are incomparable to any other duo taking up that much cap


You could say that you are not likely to win a cup if your top payed players are not playing well. That makes sense.

You could also say that only certain players deserve big contracts. That also makes sense.

What you can not say is that teams with players making more than 12.2 CH% rarely win the cup. Because that is factually incorrect.
 
it's simply correlation =/= causation in this case.


So then you would be just fine if Kopitar and Doughty were making $12 million a piece? Why not max?

You can’t just be flippant and say star contracts do not matter. An extra million here, an extra million there starts to add up, then all of a sudden you’re a top heavy aging team with no depth like the LA Kings and light years away from contention.

It’s not JUST the salary structure that sunk the Kings, nor was it JUST salary structure that sunk Chicago. But it was one of several factors, all interlinked.

Because then they would be overpaid by at least a couple million relative to their abilities. "Kopitar is not worth X dollars" is a completely different argument than "big contracts can't win" when in fact big % contracts keep winning.

The "extra million" comment isn't just about throwing random bags of money at people, it was specifically addressing the 10-million mark as being the arbitrary number at which point teams cease to be contenders.

All addressed more effectively by @crassbonanza below.



You could say that you are not likely to win a cup if your top payed players are not playing well. That makes sense.

You could also say that only certain players deserve big contracts. That also makes sense.

What you can not say is that teams with players making more than 12.2 CH% rarely win the cup. Because that is factually incorrect.
 
Generally, what happens is the next tier on your roster when it's time to negotiate comes in and says, "Well, so-and-so gets $10M+, why can't I have $6M? I am not that much worse than so-and-so."

Then the GM would simply need to sack up and not overpay the middle class or replace them with cost-controlled youth right? I thought this is something you and I agreed on.

It's not the Superstar contracts throwing the NHL out of whack, it's the bullshit for upper-middle and middle-tier guys.
 
Then the GM would simply need to sack up and not overpay the middle class or replace them with cost-controlled youth.

It's not the Superstar contracts throwing the NHL out of whack, it's the bull**** for upper-middle and middle-tier guys.
I will concede this point, too many players in the NHL are classified as superstars. One or two years of outstanding performance over an entire career is NOT what makes a player a superstar.
 
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