Around the League 2018-2019 Part 3

[KINGS17]

I just thought I would point you to BigKing’s avatar quote.

I was able to ask Dean once why he brought Modry back. What I wrote is what he told me, paraphrased of course. Then he kind of shrugged and said, besides he likes it here.

 

[KingsFan7824]

More old boys club? All friends, former teammates, and family connections. It ain't just the Kings.

 

[Choralone]

Why do you guys like the idea of working with absolute strangers so much? What makes it better?

 

[tomd]

I appreciate your point of view as well since I was also of the same mindset until I saw a rebuild turn into the happiest moments of my life. Hell...I wanted Giguere when his contract was up with the Ducks. I wanted them to sign Lecavalier, Drury...anybody to stop the losing.

T-Mac is supposed to hold the players that are on the team accountable for their play: adding or not adding players doesn't change that fact. If he takes basically the same roster and they improve by 10-12 points, that is a step forward, right? 81-83 points with the same team when 90 points got you a playoff spot this season seems like a step forward: especially if they play with some structure and effort can't be questioned like it so often was last season.

Lombardi's culture didn't begin the second he set foot in LA and he also introduced young players into a losing environment. Kings picked 4th/2nd/5th three years in a row. The whole point of giving T-Mac a five year deal and "tossing away" this season is to reset everything and try to rebuild a culture that began to erode with Voynov, was made worse with the Richards situation and captaincy change until it finally cratered with the players not wanting to put forth the effort required under Sutter Hockey, ultimately leading to his and Lombardi's dismissal. I agree that it is lost. If they are back to 2006 again, why go after more vets when 2006 was when a full rebuild started?

They are back at square one except they aren't in a full rebuild since they have 11 and 8, hence the "retool on the fly" that many on here have advocated. It isn't a complete tear down since the foundation has NMCs so it is more of a remodel. There is no quick fix for this upcoming season and it is probably prudent to see how each player--young and old alike--plays for their new coach with the long contract. T-Mac will be integral to instilling the proper culture and accountability. As for Blake's role in accountability, not giving these big dollar players additional help after crapping the bed is the most he can do to make them accountable this side of trading them. They **** the bed: they clean the sheets. Make those sheets nice and clean again, maybe Blake gets you a nice sleep number mattress and has some youngsters that can help make the bed for you on top of it all.

They expect the existing vets to be better next season. I think that is expecting some accountability. If 11/8/32/77 aren't killing it, some 4-5 defenseman isn't going to matter. They had a pretty good one in Muzzin last year and it meant jack ****. With the contracts already in place on this team, they should expect to win games and there shouldn't be any excuses. I also don't think AEG accepts a losing culture since they canned the best coach and GM this team ever had three years after winning a 2nd Cup and they gave the go-ahead for Blake to spend $18MM of their money on a 35+ year old that hadn't played NHL hockey for years. What they are tired of is five years of big contracts giving them no results. They don't trust these guys and, honestly, they shouldn't.

I don't say all of this because I dislike the vets. These guys are all made men in my book. As it relates to current results, however, I can be honest about their performance. The contracts don't matter: it is a sunk cost on a few of these guys. The main thing is optimizing the Doughty/Kopitar years since there are a lot more of those and they should be more than serviceable--hopefully much more than serviceable--by Luc's 2021 (more like 2022) time frame. This current draft is immensely important with the three picks in the top 32 or whatever. Having two first rounders next season would be pretty nice as well, if possible. Remember though that it won't just be 11/8 and current prospects: they will have tons of space to go after the kind of guys you want them to go after.

Again, good discussion. There is some daylight between us but maybe not as much as I thought at first. I agree that an improvement of 10-12 points is very achievable if the players buy into TM's system and hold themselves accountable for better performances. And, of course, if Blake doesn't continue to dismantle the team. Some fans may not like the idea of the team actually improving next year but so be it.

I'll just reiterate a couple of points...
1. I really think Blake needs to add a veteran defenseman. The kids are going to get destroyed (on the ice and confidence-wise) if they are given important minutes over a full season. Not to mention the added pressure and minutes it puts on Doughty and Martinez. Martinez, in particular, could wilt under the added work load and that might well leave him injured or playing poorly which will hurt whatever trade value he might have at TDL.
2. A legitimate 2c will cure a lot of ills on the team. It slots players where they belong. Carter can play 3c or move to the wing; Kempe can move to the wing where is probably belongs. The new 2c doesn't have to be a high priced UFA but someone who is mid-to-late 20s and has a resume. As I mentioned earlier, maybe that is what they would trade Quick for should he be moved.
3. The Kings may never have another Norris trophy defenseman and a Selke 6'4" scoring center on the same team at the same time again. Some fans may be fine wasting the next 2-3 years for them but I think that is crazy. We'll see what Blake decides. Trying to be competitive again when Kopitar is 35 and Doughty is 33 seems like a plan destined to fail. We'll see.

 

[lumbergh]

I was able to ask Dean once why he brought Modry back. What I wrote is what he told me, paraphrased of course. Then he kind of shrugged and said, besides he likes it here.

Speaking as one of the few Modry fans on this board (lonely experience), he was a good player and a solid soldier on some bad Kings teams. Bringing him back was not an attempt to make the team worse, or as you say “throw banana peels”. I just think it’s bad policy to try to make the team worse. Trading vets at the deadline when you won’t make the playoffs I get. Tanking I don’t.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Why do you guys like the idea of working with absolute strangers so much? What makes it better?

Lombardi brought his friend, who he had previously been fired with, literally off a Canadian farm, to help save his own job. That's as old time hockey as you can get. There's really nothing more hockey than that.

I was just commenting that it's not just the Kings. It's industry wide. Really sports wide. Probably world wide for a lot of instances. Friends, former players, failed GMs and coaches, a lot of things are recycled. Pro sports are usually a pretty small world.

 

[BigKing]

Again, good discussion. There is some daylight between us but maybe not as much as I thought at first. I agree that an improvement of 10-12 points is very achievable if the players buy into TM's system and hold themselves accountable for better performances. And, of course, if Blake doesn't continue to dismantle the team. Some fans may not like the idea of the team actually improving next year but so be it.

I'll just reiterate a couple of points...
1. I really think Blake needs to add a veteran defenseman. The kids are going to get destroyed (on the ice and confidence-wise) if they are given important minutes over a full season. Not to mention the added pressure and minutes it puts on Doughty and Martinez. Martinez, in particular, could wilt under the added work load and that might well leave him injured or playing poorly which will hurt whatever trade value he might have at TDL.
2. A legitimate 2c will cure a lot of ills on the team. It slots players where they belong. Carter can play 3c or move to the wing; Kempe can move to the wing where is probably belongs. The new 2c doesn't have to be a high priced UFA but someone who is mid-to-late 20s and has a resume. As I mentioned earlier, maybe that is what they would trade Quick for should he be moved.
3. The Kings may never have another Norris trophy defenseman and a Selke 6'4" scoring center on the same team at the same time again. Some fans may be fine wasting the next 2-3 years for them but I think that is crazy. We'll see what Blake decides. Trying to be competitive again when Kopitar is 35 and Doughty is 33 seems like a plan destined to fail. We'll see.

I just think that Blake is open for business and believes that they aren't winning with what they have now so why hold and continue to add. Martinez is gone or can be re-signed after two seasons. If they can get a really good return for him right now, Blake has to listen. While I believe the end result is more important than holding Martinez, it would be a bad look for Blake to move Martinez if the Kings were still considered to be in the hunt for a playoff spot this season or next, if that were to be the case. Same goes for Carter and basically everyone. I'm not saying trade just for the sake of trading, but something like Muzzin which was smart since the Kings were going nowhere this season and also next season and then Muzzin's contract is up. Blake will have to balance keeping vets since you can't just field a ton of kids, plus he wants to keep the right vets that can be part of a culture rebirth. Martinez fits that so he probably stays, even if he might be the most attractive piece at the moment.

As for veteran defensemen, I just looked at the list of UFAs. Don't know what kind of guys on there would accept 1 or 2 year deals but I'm fine with a short and not wild money contract. Engelland? McQuaid? Sure. If Phaneuf is on this team though, you'll have Doughty/Martinez/Phaneuf as veterans along with Forbort Forborting his way around the ice. Forbort isn't good but he's also been playing pro hockey for awhile now. That's four out of six on the ice that are vets. If Dion sits, there is three. Walker played half a season last year. Roy actually played 25. MacDermid can play in a pinch. Clague and Brickley will push for a spot. Bottom line is they have enough vets on defense on the current roster: they just aren't all good players. Looking at that list of UFA defensemen, you are going to have to give term and some money to get anyone halfway decent. Don't think it is in the cards. If Dion is on the team and you add another guy, that is five out of seven spots taken with little room for the future. Don't believe that's where Management is at on this team.

Teams don't generally give away legit 2Cs: especially not for an old goalie with a lot of money and term left. Would be shocked if Quick returned a strong package: moving him would be to get out from the contract. They will hope Kempe improves, Carter rebounds and/or Porky surprises. They will most likely be drafting the future #2C at 5OA.

I totally agree with your 3rd point which is why it is so frustrating that they flamed out in 2016, the only time they had a Norris and Selke winner on the same team at the same time. Now, if you mean simply having guys that have won those awards on the team at the same time, which I'm sure you do, then you are incorrect since they will both be playing together here until the end of time. That's kind of the entire point: they've had these two together the last five years and it has produced nothing of relevance except for individual awards. They've tried to improve the team around them but it didn't matter. With the culture broken, who is out there that all of a sudden flips this thing on its head? Sign Panarin or Duchene for giant money and term with a full NMC? Yikes.

Totally not being an asshole when I say this, but your side of the argument totally jives with the fact you ditched the Kings during the Lombardi years but are now back for the Blake years, only to kind of sour on Blake's current direction once he moved Muzzin. You prefer the tried and true Kings strategy of trying to just be good enough to make the playoffs and to always be "going for it", even if it is akin to running your head into a brick wall because one time out of a hundred, the wall might crack instead of your head. The plan for the last five years has failed. If you sign Kopitar and Doughty to eight year deals for that kind of money, I hope Management feels they will still be very good players at 35 and 33. Your San Jose GM will be paying Couture $8MM when he is 37, Kane $7MM when he is 33, Burns $8MM when he is 39 and Vlasic $7MM at 37, just for reference.

The plan to be dangerous after two seasons definitely could fail, but what Blake could realistically do to add to this team would definitely fail as free agents take two-to-tango and the Kings don't have any trade assets outside of prospects and picks: the very thing that a lack of for almost this entire decade has led to where they are now. Sure, he could probably swing some shortsighted "win now" move but, if they don't win, it will further set the franchise back and they will still suck when Doughty and Kopitar are 33 and 35. I pay for seats and would love nothing more than 41-0 at home with exciting, great players to watch next season. Last season was the absolutely worst entertainment value since I've had seats and I was here for the entire black hole of the 00's. I'm completely fine with them rolling out the same team, for the most part, while integrating more of the youth on a full-time basis. It sucks that Doughty and Kopitar seasons will be wasted but, in retrospect, what have the last five years been while Management was trying to capitalize on their primes and a lower cap hit?

 

[Choralone]

Lombardi brought his friend, who he had previously been fired with, literally off a Canadian farm, to help save his own job. That's as old time hockey as you can get. There's really nothing more hockey than that.

I was just commenting that it's not just the Kings. It's industry wide. Really sports wide. Probably world wide for a lot of instances. Friends, former players, failed GMs and coaches, a lot of things are recycled. Pro sports are usually a pretty small world.

Yeah, it's true. People shout "Cronyism" around here, but in any business you're likely to prefer to work with someone you know (and like, of course) assuming there's not a huge disparity in competency.

 

[tomd]

I just think that Blake is open for business and believes that they aren't winning with what they have now so why hold and continue to add. Martinez is gone or can be re-signed after two seasons. If they can get a really good return for him right now, Blake has to listen. While I believe the end result is more important than holding Martinez, it would be a bad look for Blake to move Martinez if the Kings were still considered to be in the hunt for a playoff spot this season or next, if that were to be the case. Same goes for Carter and basically everyone. I'm not saying trade just for the sake of trading, but something like Muzzin which was smart since the Kings were going nowhere this season and also next season and then Muzzin's contract is up. Blake will have to balance keeping vets since you can't just field a ton of kids, plus he wants to keep the right vets that can be part of a culture rebirth. Martinez fits that so he probably stays, even if he might be the most attractive piece at the moment.

As for veteran defensemen, I just looked at the list of UFAs. Don't know what kind of guys on there would accept 1 or 2 year deals but I'm fine with a short and not wild money contract. Engelland? McQuaid? Sure. If Phaneuf is on this team though, you'll have Doughty/Martinez/Phaneuf as veterans along with Forbort Forborting his way around the ice. Forbort isn't good but he's also been playing pro hockey for awhile now. That's four out of six on the ice that are vets. If Dion sits, there is three. Walker played half a season last year. Roy actually played 25. MacDermid can play in a pinch. Clague and Brickley will push for a spot. Bottom line is they have enough vets on defense on the current roster: they just aren't all good players. Looking at that list of UFA defensemen, you are going to have to give term and some money to get anyone halfway decent. Don't think it is in the cards. If Dion is on the team and you add another guy, that is five out of seven spots taken with little room for the future. Don't believe that's where Management is at on this team.

Teams don't generally give away legit 2Cs: especially not for an old goalie with a lot of money and term left. Would be shocked if Quick returned a strong package: moving him would be to get out from the contract. They will hope Kempe improves, Carter rebounds and/or Porky surprises. They will most likely be drafting the future #2C at 5OA.

I totally agree with your 3rd point which is why it is so frustrating that they flamed out in 2016, the only time they had a Norris and Selke winner on the same team at the same time. Now, if you mean simply having guys that have won those awards on the team at the same time, which I'm sure you do, then you are incorrect since they will both be playing together here until the end of time. That's kind of the entire point: they've had these two together the last five years and it has produced nothing of relevance except for individual awards. They've tried to improve the team around them but it didn't matter. With the culture broken, who is out there that all of a sudden flips this thing on its head? Sign Panarin or Duchene for giant money and term with a full NMC? Yikes.

Totally not being an ******* when I say this, but your side of the argument totally jives with the fact you ditched the Kings during the Lombardi years but are now back for the Blake years, only to kind of sour on Blake's current direction once he moved Muzzin. You prefer the tried and true Kings strategy of trying to just be good enough to make the playoffs and to always be "going for it", even if it is akin to running your head into a brick wall because one time out of a hundred, the wall might crack instead of your head. The plan for the last five years has failed. If you sign Kopitar and Doughty to eight year deals for that kind of money, I hope Management feels they will still be very good players at 35 and 33. Your San Jose GM will be paying Couture $8MM when he is 37, Kane $7MM when he is 33, Burns $8MM when he is 39 and Vlasic $7MM at 37, just for reference.

The plan to be dangerous after two seasons definitely could fail, but what Blake could realistically do to add to this team would definitely fail as free agents take two-to-tango and the Kings don't have any trade assets outside of prospects and picks: the very thing that a lack of for almost this entire decade has led to where they are now. Sure, he could probably swing some shortsighted "win now" move but, if they don't win, it will further set the franchise back and they will still suck when Doughty and Kopitar are 33 and 35. I pay for seats and would love nothing more than 41-0 at home with exciting, great players to watch next season. Last season was the absolutely worst entertainment value since I've had seats and I was here for the entire black hole of the 00's. I'm completely fine with them rolling out the same team, for the most part, while integrating more of the youth on a full-time basis. It sucks that Doughty and Kopitar seasons will be wasted but, in retrospect, what have the last five years been while Management was trying to capitalize on their primes and a lower cap hit?

If Phaneuf is on the teanmnext year then all bets are off!

Let me be clear...I'm not a Kings fan but I am a big hockey fan living in the OC/LA area. I don't think I have to be a fan to comment on a message board. I find the current crossroads interesting and like to comment on it. If I truly hated the kings I would be totally supporting the approach advocated by K17 and others because it is the black hole forever approach. Mine might be as well but at least they'd be trying. Either way they are between a rock and a hard place. The Kings traded Muzzin but that was/is really the only bullet they have in their chamber to help the retool/rebuild. Who else would get anything close to that return (or even just a 1st)? Quick? no. Martinez? no, if the scuttlebutt from Hoven at the last TDL is to be believed. Toffoli? hah. Carter? no. So a rebuild through the draft is going to be a long, long, long process. Three years is EXTREMELY optimistic to be competitive again when you rely solely on the draft. Especially with Vilardi a big question mark and not getting Hughes / Kakko this year. It would be so much easier if they start integrating some talent every year through other means while at the same time getting younger through the draft. Obviously, that is not a popular opinion here at HF but I think it is closer to the truth about how Blake will proceed.

Anyway, we'll know more in the next couple of weeks and again in July. As a hockey fan it fascinates me and I hope it provokes some thoughtful discussion.

 

[BigKing]

If Phaneuf is on the teanmnext year then all bets are off!

Let me be clear...I'm not a Kings fan but I am a big hockey fan living in the OC/LA area. I don't think I have to be a fan to comment on a message board. I find the current crossroads interesting and like to comment on it. If I truly hated the kings I would be totally supporting the approach advocated by K17 and others because it is the black hole forever approach. Mine might be as well but at least they'd be trying. Either way they are between a rock and a hard place. The Kings traded Muzzin but that was/is really the only bullet they have in their chamber to help the retool/rebuild. Who else would return anything close to that return (or even just a 1st)? Quick? no. Martinez? no, if the scuttlebutt from Hoven at the last TDL is to be believed. Toffoli? hah. Carter? no. So a rebuild through the draft is going to be a long, long, long process. Three years is EXTREMELY optimistic to be competitive again when you rely solely on the draft. Especially with Vilardi a big question mark and not getting Hughes / Kakko this year. It would be so much easier if they start integrating some talent every year through other means while at the same time getting younger through the draft. Obviously, that is not a popular opinion here at HF but I think it is closer to the truth about how Blake will proceed.

Anyway, we'll know more in the next couple of weeks and again in July. As a hockey fan it fascinates me and I hope it provokes some thoughtful discussion.

Fair enough regarding the fandom.

I think trying to add to the current team is the Dave Taylor Black Hole Special. Of course, he did pull Brown and Kopitar from the black hole draft spot but he missed so many other times that it was too late once they were good.

Building through the draft does take time: this will be the 3rd draft in a row that the Kings have all of their picks and they have additional ones. Next year will most likely feature a high 1st round pick. Having 8 and 11 should help accelerate playoff contention if they hit on some of these prospects, even when they are in the 33-35 range. No guarantees, of course, but every Cup winner this decade will have been built through the draft primarily unless St. Louis wins tomorrow. Even then, Tarasenko/Schwartz/Pieterangelo/Binnington. They feel like an outlier though when compared to Chicago, Boston, LA, Pittsburgh and Washington. Pittsburgh is a good example as they continually tried to add to Crosby/Malkin but it wasn't until their cap hits were better and they had some young guys jump in that they became a force again.

 

[KINGS17]

If Phaneuf is on the teanmnext year then all bets are off!

Let me be clear...I'm not a Kings fan but I am a big hockey fan living in the OC/LA area. I don't think I have to be a fan to comment on a message board. I find the current crossroads interesting and like to comment on it. If I truly hated the kings I would be totally supporting the approach advocated by K17 and others because it is the black hole forever approach. Mine might be as well but at least they'd be trying. Either way they are between a rock and a hard place. The Kings traded Muzzin but that was/is really the only bullet they have in their chamber to help the retool/rebuild. Who else would get anything close to that return (or even just a 1st)? Quick? no. Martinez? no, if the scuttlebutt from Hoven at the last TDL is to be believed. Toffoli? hah. Carter? no. So a rebuild through the draft is going to be a long, long, long process. Three years is EXTREMELY optimistic to be competitive again when you rely solely on the draft. Especially with Vilardi a big question mark and not getting Hughes / Kakko this year. It would be so much easier if they start integrating some talent every year through other means while at the same time getting younger through the draft. Obviously, that is not a popular opinion here at HF but I think it is closer to the truth about how Blake will proceed.

Anyway, we'll know more in the next couple of weeks and again in July. As a hockey fan it fascinates me and I hope it provokes some thoughtful discussion.

I find this interesting, not only because I AM a Kings fan, but because what I am advocating is exactly what Lombardi did to get out of the black hole. His motto, "Get Younger, Get Better". It's too bad he abandoned this core principle, because not following it after the 2014 cup win cost him his job.

Your suggested approach of somehow (I don't know how in short order) filling all the holes this roster has, while assuming Kopitar and Doughty play at Selke and Norris levels into their late and mid thirties will yield nothing but the black hole.

What was Dean's first significant move as GM? Trading Pavol Demitra for Patrick O'Sullivan and the #17 pick overall (Trevor Lewis). Exactly the type of move you absolutely hate, yet it was a catalyst because O'Sullivan was turned into a key member of the leadership group, none other than Mr. Game 7 Justin Williams. Traded Lubomir Visnovsky after being on the scene for one year for two younger players which became key leaders in Stoll and Greene. Bet you hated that one as well.

Blake's starting point is a bit behind Lombardi's starting point, because he has no Kopitar, Brown, or Quick in their early 20's. That is why it is going to take him longer to rebuild this thing. The only point I will agree with you on in your post is that three years is extremely optimistic.

My point is this. What I advocate has already been tried and was successful. There is no guarantee it would work again, but it gives a much better chance than the so-called "retool". You advocate the same tired old diatribe we heard from the Kings for years before Lombardi arrived on the scene, "Just gotta make the playoffs and anything can happen." That is garbage. Build a young dominant team, and anything can happen.

 

[tomd]

Fair enough regarding the fandom.

I think trying to add to the current team is the Dave Taylor Black Hole Special. Of course, he did pull Brown and Kopitar from the black hole draft spot but he missed so many other times that it was too late once they were good.

Building through the draft does take time: this will be the 3rd draft in a row that the Kings have all of their picks and they have additional ones. Next year will most likely feature a high 1st round pick. Having 8 and 11 should help accelerate playoff contention if they hit on some of these prospects, even when they are in the 33-35 range. No guarantees, of course, but every Cup winner this decade will have been built through the draft primarily unless St. Louis wins tomorrow. Even then, Tarasenko/Schwartz/Pieterangelo/Binnington. They feel like an outlier though when compared to Chicago, Boston, LA, Pittsburgh and Washington. Pittsburgh is a good example as they continually tried to add to Crosby/Malkin but it wasn't until their cap hits were better and they had some young guys jump in that they became a force again.

No doubt the draft is important in building a winning franchise. One of my points has been that having a good coach, and renewed commitment from 8-11-23-32-77 et al will probably put the team close to black hole territory which makes getting those top 3 picks much more difficult. An additional 10-12 points next season puts them firmly in that position. Not that players picked later won't become stars but it takes longer and the odds of success are lower That's why three years is a very tall order. Unless, of course, Blake chooses to accelerate the carnage by using the "banana peel" approach! Then it's all about the lottery balls

 

[crassbonanza]

My point is this. What I advocate has already been tried and was successful. There is no guarantee it would work again, but it gives a much better chance than the so-called "retool". You advocate the same tired old diatribe we heard from the Kings for years before Lombardi arrived on the scene, "Just gotta make the playoffs and anything can happen." That is garbage. Build a young dominant team, and anything can happen.

Rebuild's fail just as much as retool's do and the opposite is true as well. The conference finals this season had 3 teams that went through an on the fly re-tool. It is just your opinion that a full tear down rebuild gives a much better chance to be successful.

 

[tomd]

I find this interesting, not only because I AM a Kings fan, but because what I am advocating is exactly what Lombardi did to get out of the black hole. His motto, "Get Younger, Get Better". It's too bad he abandoned this core principle, because not following it after the 2014 cup win cost him his job.

What was Dean's first significant move as GM? Trading Pavol Demitra for Patrick O'Sullivan and the #17 pick overall (Trevor Lewis). Exactly the type of move you absolutely hate, yet it was a catalyst because O'Sullivan was turned into a key member of the leadership group, none other than Mr. Game 7 Justin Williams. Traded Lubomir Visnovsky after being on the scene for one year for two younger players which became key leaders in Stoll and Greene. Bet you hated that one as well.

Blake's starting point is a bit behind Lombardi's starting point, because he has no Kopitar, Brown, or Quick in their early 20's. That is why it is going to take him longer to rebuild this thing.

My point is this. What I advocate has already been tried and was successful. There is no guarantee it would work again, but it gives a much better chance than the so-called "retool". You advocate the same tired old diatribe we heard from the Kings for years before Lombardi arrived on the scene, "Just gotta make the playoffs and anything can happen." That is garbage. Build a young dominant team, and anything can happen.

Lombardi was not successful until he traded for Richards, Carter, Stoll, Greene, Williams, Penner, Gaborik, and Regher and signed Scuderi and Mitchell. ALL SEASONED VETERANS. The rebuild was going nowhere until that happened. The only players Lombardi drafted who actually played major roles in the 2012 SC were Doughty and Voynov.

He traded all sorts of draft picks and prospects for those players. You applauded then...why not now? Schenn was a #5 pick and the best junior player in the world at the time...and Lombardi traded him. Did you applaud then?

You can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts.

 

[KINGS17]

Lombardi was not successful until he traded for Richards, Carter, Stoll, Greene, Williams, Penner, Gaborik, and Regher and signed Scuderi and Mitchell. ALL SEASONED VETERANS. The rebuild was going nowhere until that happened. The only players Lombardi drafted who actually played major roles in the 2012 SC were Doughty and Voynov.

He traded all sorts of draft picks and prospects for those players. You applauded then...why not now? Schenn was a #5 pick and the best junior player in the world at the time...and Lombardi traded him. Did you applaud then?

You can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts.

I am beginning to get it now. Somewhere along the way Dean Lombardi p*ssed in your Cheerios, but all of this was part of the rebuild. The assets used to get these players were acquired during the first 2-3 years of Lombardi's tenure. Stoll and Greene while having played for Edmonton in the Stanley Cup Final were hardly grizzled veterans being in just their mid-twenties, and were the return on Visnovsky, so how are they not part of the rebuild?

Yes, I applauded when Schenn was traded for Richards. It was time to make a move for more leadership and a very accomplished player that filled the 2C slot. Not every asset acquired in the rebuild has to be on the team that ends up getting the job done.

Here is a fact for you, what Lombardi did worked.

 

[KINGS17]

Rebuild's fail just as much as retool's do and the opposite is true as well. The conference finals this season had 3 teams that went through an on the fly re-tool. It is just your opinion that a full tear down rebuild gives a much better chance to be successful.

Take a look at the St. Louis roster:
2018-19 St. Louis Blues Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

I don't see any players much over 30 outside of Steen (34), Bozak (32), and Bouwmeester (35). How old are Kopitar, Carter, Brown, and Quick? These are the guys you want to rebuild around.

Maybe you are thinking of a different teams in the Conference Finals which better fit your argument. I know it can't be San Jose because the Kings don't have any players in the same ballpark as Couture, Hertl, Meier, and Kane.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

Why do you guys like the idea of working with absolute strangers so much? What makes it better?

Fresh ideas maybe ?

 

[tomd]

All part of the rebuild. The assets used to get these players were acquired during the first 2-3 years of Lombardi's tenure. Stoll and Greene while having played for Edmonton in the Stanley Cup Final were hardly grizzled veterans being in just their mid-twenties, and were the return on Visnovsky, so how are they not part of the rebuild?

Yes, I applauded when Schenn was traded for Richards. It was time to make a move for more leadership and a very accomplished player that filled the 2C slot. Not every asset acquired in the rebuild has to be on the team that ends up getting the job done.

Here is a fact for you, what Lombardi did worked.

Sigh...I agree it worked...and he didn't stick dogmatically to drafting and developing players. Ironically, I'm advocating more of the Lombardi approach now and you are categorically against that. Interesting.

The Visnovsky trade is similar to the Muzzin trade and hopefully for the Kings works out the same. But Stoll/Greene would have never tasted champagne in 2012 and 2014 if Lombardi didn't sacrifice a huge chunk of the future and get all the veterans that he did. That's a fact for you.

 

[KINGS17]

Sigh...I agree it worked...and he didn't stick dogmatically to drafting and developing players. Ironically, I'm advocating more of the Lombardi approach now and you are categorically against that. Interesting.

The Visnovsky trade is similar to the Muzzin trade and hopefully for the Kings works out the same. But Stoll/Greene would have never tasted champagne in 2012 and 2014 if Lombardi didn't sacrifice a huge chunk of the future and get all the veterans that he did. That's a fact for you.

Sigh...no you're not advocating Lombardi's approach.

 

[Herby]

Ironically, I'm advocating more of the Lombardi approach now and you are categorically against that.
.

Dean Lombardi inherited a Hall of Fame two-way center and the greatest goalie in franchise history, he added to that by drafting another Hall of Fame player 2 years after he was hired. They had all three in their stone primes. Blake has those same three players as his cornerstone guys, except they are all very likely past their prime years as NHL players and taking up way more of the cap. K17 would probably be advocating for different types of deals if the Kings had Barkov, Dahlin and Binnington but lacked secondary leaders. But they don't, it's apples and oranges.

 

[tomd]

Sigh...no you're not advocating Lombardi's approach.

Neither of us are advocating Lombardi's approach exactly because the situation is different today. But the fact is that Lombardi abandoned his build through the draft approach in 2011 and never looked back. It resulted in three great years...but only three. If he had stuck to the draft and develop philosophy I have no doubt that the team would have been a perennial playoff team and would still be today...but they might have zero Stanley Cups. Which is better? I guess that depends on whether you prefer living in the present or in the past.

But let's say that Blake decided to go for it again...he signs EK65, he trades #5 and #22 this year for a stud 20 something 2c. He gets another veteran defenseman in the Scuderi/Greene/Mitchell mold. Maybe he even creates extra cap room by dealing away Toffoli and Lewis then signs Panerin. Instant playoff team. And most likely a 3-4 year window where the team would be a legit SC contender....just like the Lombardi 12-14 window. Do you support it or do you prefer to wallow in the mediocrity that is the future of the team now?

 

[tomd]

Dean Lombardi inherited a Hall of Fame two-way center and the greatest goalie in franchise history, he added to that by drafting another Hall of Fame player 2 years after he was hired. They had all three in their stone primes. Blake has those same three players as his cornerstone guys, except they are all very likely past their prime years as NHL players and taking up way more of the cap. K17 would probably be advocating for different types of deals if the Kings had Barkov, Dahlin and Binnington but lacked secondary leaders. But they don't, it's apples and oranges.

Doughty isn't even 30 yet. He's the same frickin age as Petriangelo and EK65!! Kopitar isn't even 32 yet...two years younger than Getzlaf!! Quick is 33...1 year older than Tuuka Rask! As Dennis Bernstein pointed out...teams that went far into the playoffs have cores that are just as old or older compared to the Kings. It's the supporting cast that is missing and it's a lot easier to fill out the supporting cast than it is to find a Norris Trophy defenseman in his prime or a still productive #1c. I swear some of you are still more comfortable with a losing mindset than a winning one. Your first impulse is "rebuild" because that's what losing franchises do all the time. K17 isn't even willing to think about the Boston Bruins example that Luc referred to...a quick rebuild with one good draft. He want to get rid of everyone! That's just crazy!

 

[KINGS17]

Dean Lombardi inherited a Hall of Fame two-way center and the greatest goalie in franchise history, he added to that by drafting another Hall of Fame player 2 years after he was hired. They had all three in their stone primes. Blake has those same three players as his cornerstone guys, except they are all very likely past their prime years as NHL players and taking up way more of the cap. K17 would probably be advocating for different types of deals if the Kings had Barkov, Dahlin and Binnington but lacked secondary leaders. But they don't, it's apples and oranges.

Absolutely, Doughty-type second contracts for all those players. I think GMs are going to learn it's the best model. I was willing to give the big 2nd contract a chance, but it looks like a complete disaster for Edmonton and Toronto. Colorado on the other hand can point at McKinnon when they negotiate with their RFAs.

 

[KINGS17]

Neither of us are advocating Lombardi's approach exactly because the situation is different today. But the fact is that Lombardi abandoned his build through the draft approach in 2011 and never looked back. It resulted in three great years...but only three. If he had stuck to the draft and develop philosophy I have no doubt that the team would have been a perennial playoff team and would still be today...but they might have zero Stanley Cups. Which is better? I guess that depends on whether you prefer living in the present or in the past.

But let's say that Blake decided to go for it again...he signs EK65, he trades #5 and #22 this year for a stud 20 something 2c. He gets another veteran defenseman in the Scuderi/Greene/Mitchell mold. Maybe he even creates extra cap room by dealing away Toffoli and Lewis then signs Panerin. Instant playoff team. And most likely a 3-4 year window where the team would be a legit SC contender....just like the Lombardi 12-14 window. Do you support it or do you prefer to wallow in the mediocrity that is the future of the team now?

...and you are the one who is pragmatic? Okay.

BTW, winning the Stanley Cup is better than being a perennial playoff team.

 

[KingsFan7824]

What was Dean's first significant move as GM? Trading Pavol Demitra for Patrick O'Sullivan and the #17 pick overall (Trevor Lewis). Exactly the type of move you absolutely hate, yet it was a catalyst because O'Sullivan was turned into a key member of the leadership group, none other than Mr. Game 7 Justin Williams. Traded Lubomir Visnovsky after being on the scene for one year for two younger players which became key leaders in Stoll and Greene. Bet you hated that one as well.

Those aren't the same though. Visnovsky for Stoll and Greene, that's set. You can't really compare that to getting O'Sullivan, who turned into Williams. Nobody had any idea O'Sullivan would eventually turn into Williams 3 years later. If Williams hadn't played only 37 and 44 games in 07-08 and 08-09, is he even available? Stoll and Greene were also 26 and 25 when they got here, with at least a couple years in the league, and even a run to the Final, under their belts. They were younger than Visnovsky, but they weren't ELC guys.