Around the League 2018-2019 Part 3

[BigKing]

We'll see. My personal feeling is that almost every player on the team is going to be better this coming year with a new coach and renewed commitment. If Blake just adds the couple of pieces that I mentioned (legitimate 2c and a veteran #4-5 D) the team will likely be in the 85-90 point range.

I don't think Blake doing nothing at all to help the team is a realistic option. TM didn't come here to oversee the easing of Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, and Quick into retirement. Nor did he come here with the intention of insuring a top 3 pick each year. Getting younger is imperative but the 18 year-olds being drafted this year and next are REPLACEMENTS for Kopitar, Brown, and Doughty...not additions. By the time those kids are ready to play full-time roles in the NHL, the current core will be well past their prime. In that sense, Blake, Luc, and AEG must realize that they can't waste the remaining years of the existing core.

So yes, by all means continue to draft well and build the prospect pool but this team desperately needs to add some top talent in the 23-28 year old range as well. That can only come from trades and free agency.

I think they will be better simply because it will be harder to be much worse than last season; however, the defense as constructed is pretty lacking so they are still going to give up goals. Some tightening up on special teams will lead to more points in the standings but I see them being somewhere between last season and 2017.

Kopitar and Doughty are making big dollars for several more years. These people being drafted will eventually be replacements but will be compliments at first. It is extremely likely that Kopitar will not be the best forward on the Kings if they ever win another Cup.

Anyways, Management has already said they aren't contenders and that they won't be active in big-name free agency. They aren't going out and getting a 2C and Top 4 defenseman which, by the way, is something that nearly every team would like to add.

Even if Blake wanted to shop, his credit card is maxed out.

 

[lumbergh]

I think 85-90 points would be a success for the Kings in 2019-20. Black hole or not, that means that the Kings will have turned the corner and hopefully be playing some competitive, entertaining hockey. I'm not of the feast or famine philosophy; I just would like to watch and enjoy Kings hockey again. If they are still playing for a playoff spot in April, fantastic!

 

[KINGS17]

We clearly represent opposite sides of the spectrum but I'm enjoying the discussion. If I'm management with a business to run, I'll take 85-90 points instead of 72 points every time. What did a 72 point season get the Kings? Hughes? no. Kakko? no. The #5 pick could well turn out to be no better than the #10 pick in this year's draft. Going into next year with that same expectation is just a very poor business plan.

TM was not hired to put a structured system into Ontario. He was hired to bring accountability and effort back into LA. And not into the 17 and 18 year-olds. Into the grown men who are making millions on the current roster.

In all likelihood, Brown, Kopitar, and Doughty are Kings for life. Of Brown there is no doubt. Quick...we'll see. I don't think there is much of a market for him but we'll see how free agency works out for a few other teams and what that looks like.

Your line of thinking makes sense if you are the Ottawa Senators and have Melnyk as the owner. Your attitude is also that of a Kings fan back in the post Gretzky years or the early 80s. That of a loser (I don't say that pejoratively...it is the mindset of having a team that's never won anything). Well, the Kings won 2 Stanley Cups...they should be a proud organization that doesn't accept a losing record or a losing culture. You are advocating both.

Finally, you're putting to much onus on the draft as the way to rebuild this franchise. If they had gotten Hughes or Kakko that might have made sense. Whoever they get at #5 is going to be a big question mark...will they be great or just good? Next year's pick could be anywhere from #1 to whatever. Are you willing to throw away another entire season just to see how the lottery balls turn out? This team needs a middle layer of players in the 23-28 year old range. That can't wait. Otherwise, I see a black hole team for the next decade. Why not try to get better now as well as younger for the future? It is possible.

My line of thinking is that of a pragmatist. The GMs goal isn't to simply put a competitive team back on the ice. A competitive team, that is a young and up and coming team, is simply a mile-marker on the way to the ultimate destination.

Blake's job is to put the Kings back into Stanley Cup contender status as quickly as possible. Could he founder (as in sink like a stone and fail)? Absolutely, but I am willing to give him an opportunity, and hope he is smarter than his boss. So far Blake hasn't done anything too creative. The Brown move I suggested would be a bold move, if he could pull something like that off. Blake has to look at all options now to acquire future assets that will be of value in 4 or 5 years.

Dustin Brown will not lose any admiration from the fans he has garnered if he finishes his career with another team.

 

[tomd]

I think they will be better simply because it will be harder to be much worse than last season; however, the defense as constructed is pretty lacking so they are still going to give up goals. Some tightening up on special teams will lead to more points in the standings but I see them being somewhere between last season and 2017.

Kopitar and Doughty are making big dollars for several more years. These people being drafted will eventually be replacements but will be compliments at first. It is extremely likely that Kopitar will not be the best forward on the Kings if they ever win another Cup.

Anyways, Management has already said they aren't contenders and that they won't be active in big-name free agency. They aren't going out and getting a 2C and Top 4 defenseman which, by the way, is something that nearly every team would like to add.

Even if Blake wanted to shop, his credit card is maxed out.

Blake is on record saying that the team needs to upgrade the 2c slot so I expect him to fill it with someone...I don't think Prohorkin was his answer. Will it be a Duchene type? Maybe not but I do expect him to follow through on what he said the team's biggest need is. And if he goes into this season without adding another competent D through trade or free agency then he is truly incompetent. Doesn't have to be a top tier guy but they desperately need another veteran D.

 

[KINGS17]

I think they will be better simply because it will be harder to be much worse than last season; however, the defense as constructed is pretty lacking so they are still going to give up goals. Some tightening up on special teams will lead to more points in the standings but I see them being somewhere between last season and 2017.

Kopitar and Doughty are making big dollars for several more years. These people being drafted will eventually be replacements but will be compliments at first. It is extremely likely that Kopitar will not be the best forward on the Kings if they ever win another Cup.

Anyways, Management has already said they aren't contenders and that they won't be active in big-name free agency. They aren't going out and getting a 2C and Top 4 defenseman which, by the way, is something that nearly every team would like to add.

Even if Blake wanted to shop, his credit card is maxed out.

I agree, the Kings can't be much worse next season than they were last season, and I would not look at making it up to the black hole as any kind of significant progress. This is why Blake needs to keep throwing banana peels in their path. Trading Martinez at the draft or before the season would be a great start.

 

[KINGS17]

Blake is on record saying that the team needs to upgrade the 2c slot so I expect him to fill it with someone...I don't think Prohorkin was his answer. Will it be a Duchene type? Maybe not but I do expect him to follow through on what he said the team's biggest need is. And if he goes into this season without adding another competent D through trade or free agency then he is truly incompetent. Doesn't have to be a top tier guy but they desperately need another veteran D.

No, that would make him incompetent. It would just mean he is following a plan that is different from the one you advocate.

Sorry, but in my book, your plan is not a plan.

 

[tomd]

I agree, the Kings can't be much worse next season than they were last season, and I would not look at making it up to the black hole as any kind of significant progress. This is why Blake needs to keep throwing banana peels in their path. Trading Martinez at the draft or before the season would be a great start.

That is not the view of a pragmatist...that is the view of an extremist.

Pragmatic definition: dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

Who sounds more like the pragmatist...you or me? I advocate using the current core because they are under contract for years to come and not easily tradeable. Build around them. Get younger at the same time. Make an effort to be competitive while you still have a legitimate #1 center and a Norris caliber defenseman in your organization. You advocate letting the team whither and waste for the next few years while hoping to draft a new roster. Who is the practical one and who is the theoretical one?

 

[KINGS17]

That is not the view of a pragmatist...that is the view of an extremist.

Pragmatic definition: dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

Who sounds more like the pragmatist...you or me? I advocate using the current core because they are under contract for years to come and not easily tradeable. Build around them. Get younger at the same time. Make an effort to be competitive while you still have a legitimate #1 center and a Norris caliber defenseman in your organization. You advocate letting the team whither and waste for the next few years while hoping to draft a new roster. Who is the practical one and who is the theoretical one?

Me. The sooner you accept that outside of Doughty (maybe) this core is done. I don't care how many years they have remaining on their ill-conceived contracts. In theory you suppose the core will remain as equally effective as they are today, (I mean they have won one playoff game over the last five seasons, can't do much better than that, right?) or will they hit a wall at some point like Jeff Carter did last season.

The core is already withering. Time to sell the week-old fruit that is over ripe before it rots.

 

[tomd]

Me. The sooner you accept that outside of Doughty (maybe) this core is done. I don't care how many years they have remaining on their ill-conceived contracts. In theory you suppose the core will remain as equally effective as they are today, (I mean they have won one playoff game over the last five seasons, can't do much better than that, right?) or will they hit a wall at some point like Jeff Carter did last season.

The core is already withering. Time to sell the week-old fruit that is over ripe before it rots.

But the week-old fruit is not saleable!!

My model for LA is the San Jose model. How many years now has everyone written off the Sharks? Marleau and Thornton were too old 7 years ago! They didn't have any top 5 draft choices to rebuild the franchise. Burns and Pavelski were in their 30s and past their prime. But with all that every year they made the playoffs. Then this year they went out and got Karlsson. Why would they do that? A "pragmatist" like yourself would have given up on them years ago. And yet they came within a game of the SC finals this year. Do you think their fans are mad at the franchise for not tanking when all their stars were in their 30's? I don't think so. They acted pragmatically and built around their aging core. And it worked. That is what the Kings should be doing. It is the only realistic avenue they have given the contracts they are dealing with.

 

[BigKing]

But the week-old fruit is not saleable!!

My model for LA is the San Jose model. How many years now has everyone written off the Sharks? Marleau and Thornton were too old 7 years ago! They didn't have any top 5 draft choices to rebuild the franchise. Burns and Pavelski were in their 30s and past their prime. But with all that every year they made the playoffs. Then this year they went out and got Karlsson. Why would they do that? A "pragmatist" like yourself would have given up on them years ago. And yet they came within a game of the SC finals this year. Do you think their fans are mad at the franchise for not tanking when all their stars were in their 30's? I don't think so. They acted pragmatically and built around their aging core. And it worked. That is what the Kings should be doing. It is the only realistic avenue they have given the contracts they are dealing with.

They (SJ) have had players that can contribute within an age range that the Kings just don't have. They also basically kept their core together while very important pieces of the Kings glory run left or flamed out.

They also have a team full of non-Cup winners that didn't let malaise and entitlement seep in since it is hard to be entitled when you are known as the biggest "could have beens" in the NHL this century.

What does SJ have now? They moved a lot of future picks and are looking at losing pieces of that core. As for keeping them together, it helps when you have guys taking one year deals on team-friendly contracts as opposed to rolling with what the Kings have.

As for next season, here it is straight from Luc's mouth:

We’re still at the phase of there’s going to be a lot of young guys coming up. That being said, like a Boston, there was one draft that turned it around quickly. Montreal, everybody counted them out last year. And they were one win away from getting in the tournament. But we think by 2021, 2022 is when we’ll have enough cap space to (do) exactly what we would want to do. But as I’ve said, we already started in 2017 building the pipeline.

Free Agency:

I couldn’t even tell you right now. I’d be surprised if we would shop in the big market. It’s not the time yet and we don’t have the cap space. We’ve got a lot of work to do on our young guys and getting it right. That being said, we’re going to look. You’re always listening and you got to see what’s happening but...

Key points:
- A great draft can turn things around quickly, notes Boston...a team with an established core that needed internal help.
- Says 2021 but hedges it to '22 as far as when they will be ready to make a big splash since they will have the cap space and a better handle on what they have as far as prospects since they've been building that since '17.
- Free agency is not the time and they don't have the space.

He also says he expects better play from 11/8/77. There is your 2C: Jeff Carter. Also, 2020 is going to be what it is going to be with the only expectation being improvement from guys already here and a buy-in to T-Mac's system so there can be some sort of structure again.

Blake did nothing with a better team going in to 2018. Then he spent $6MM on what looked like the same team going in to 2019. Now the team is worse without Muzzin, everyone is a year older and the cap is still tight. Never mind the "why?"--which appears to be a philosophical difference--but "how?" is Blake supposed to snag a 2C and Top 4 defenseman?

 

[crassbonanza]

the cap is still tight.

It's really not that tight anymore, they have almost 12 million in cap space currently and only have Kempe/Iafallo to sign.

 

[lumbergh]

Me. The sooner you accept that outside of Doughty (maybe) this core is done. I don't care how many years they have remaining on their ill-conceived contracts. In theory you suppose the core will remain as equally effective as they are today, (I mean they have won one playoff game over the last five seasons, can't do much better than that, right?) or will they hit a wall at some point like Jeff Carter did last season.

The core is already withering. Time to sell the week-old fruit that is over ripe before it rots.

I don't agree that the core is done. We can just disagree on that point. We'll know by November who's right.

I also don't agree that the path to improving the team is through actively sabotaging the on-ice performance. That's just a weird thing to say. A GM must come out and say the "REBUILD" word and put everyone up for trade if that's the "plan".

 

[KopitarFAN]

I think 85-90 points would be a success for the Kings in 2019-20. Black hole or not, that means that the Kings will have turned the corner and hopefully be playing some competitive, entertaining hockey. I'm not of the feast or famine philosophy; I just would like to watch and enjoy Kings hockey again. If they are still playing for a playoff spot in April, fantastic!

I'll buy this, with one caveat, more young guys need to be playing regularly by seasons end, Walker and Wagner can't be the featured young players and think progress has been made, i'd rather be awful if the lineup is still loaded with veteran players.

 

[BigKing]

It's really not that tight anymore, they have almost 12 million in cap space currently and only have Kempe/Iafallo to sign.

So then it is pretty strange that Luc says they don't have the cap space.

They don't want to add overpriced UFAs with that space nor do they have the assets to trade for one. Dry powder for at least one more season and maybe two. They then have a better idea about the strength of the prospects and should have plenty of space to sign someone or trade for someone.

This core is mostly done, but 11/8 still should be very good hockey players in three seasons. Carter is highly questionable, as is Quick. Brown will still be under contract and easily could be this team's Joe Thornton in terms of taking a team-friendly deal if he still has gas in the tank and things are looking up.

Luc's interview kind of made it clear that they don't believe in this core, that this core has been given the benefit of the doubt for five season now and have not delivered. He says they deserved the benefit of the doubt--which they did--but there comes a point where you have to realize it isn't working. Management is at that point. I don't understand how some think that Blake will go out and sign a UFA Top 4 when he just traded a Top 4 defenseman on a good contract strictly for futures.

They are "stuck" with 11 & 8 and I think they are fine with that. It really feels like they just want a lot of flexibility with everything else moving forward and don't want to get married to any long/big contracts at this point in time. I'm sure the Kovy signing stings.

 

[KINGS17]

I don't agree that the core is done. We can just disagree on that point. We'll know by November who's right.

I also don't agree that the path to improving the team is through actively sabotaging the on-ice performance. That's just a weird thing to say. A GM must come out and say the "REBUILD" word and put everyone up for trade if that's the "plan".

Really? Sabotage is a strong word, but some players are just not as capable as others. What do you think Dean was doing when he brought Modry back?

Modry was a good soldier, pretty good guy in the room, good work ethic, so Dean didn't mind having him around. Was he going to in the playoffs with Modry someday? No.

Why was Muzzin traded and replaced by (oh, we don't have someone of equal talent)?

Trades like that are the GM throwing banana peels in the path of the remaining roster.

When it comes to winning cups in LA, this core is done.

 

[tomd]

They (SJ) have had players that can contribute within an age range that the Kings just don't have. They also basically kept their core together while very important pieces of the Kings glory run left or flamed out.

They also have a team full of non-Cup winners that didn't let malaise and entitlement seep in since it is hard to be entitled when you are known as the biggest "could have beens" in the NHL this century.

What does SJ have now? They moved a lot of future picks and are looking at losing pieces of that core. As for keeping them together, it helps when you have guys taking one year deals on team-friendly contracts as opposed to rolling with what the Kings have.

As for next season, here it is straight from Luc's mouth:

We’re still at the phase of there’s going to be a lot of young guys coming up. That being said, like a Boston, there was one draft that turned it around quickly. Montreal, everybody counted them out last year. And they were one win away from getting in the tournament. But we think by 2021, 2022 is when we’ll have enough cap space to (do) exactly what we would want to do. But as I’ve said, we already started in 2017 building the pipeline.

Free Agency:

I couldn’t even tell you right now. I’d be surprised if we would shop in the big market. It’s not the time yet and we don’t have the cap space. We’ve got a lot of work to do on our young guys and getting it right. That being said, we’re going to look. You’re always listening and you got to see what’s happening but...

Key points:
- A great draft can turn things around quickly, notes Boston...a team with an established core that needed internal help.
- Says 2021 but hedges it to '22 as far as when they will be ready to make a big splash since they will have the cap space and a better handle on what they have as far as prospects since they've been building that since '17.
- Free agency is not the time and they don't have the space.

He also says he expects better play from 11/8/77. There is your 2C: Jeff Carter. Also, 2020 is going to be what it is going to be with the only expectation being improvement from guys already here and a buy-in to T-Mac's system so there can be some sort of structure again.

Blake did nothing with a better team going in to 2018. Then he spent $6MM on what looked like the same team going in to 2019. Now the team is worse without Muzzin, everyone is a year older and the cap is still tight. Never mind the "why?"--which appears to be a philosophical difference--but "how?" is Blake supposed to snag a 2C and Top 4 defenseman?

The point on SJ is that their GM didn't panic with the team even after they missed the playoffs as late as 2015. He has constantly been aggressive in trying to make them better. They will rebuild only when the contracts of their older core players have expired or are within a year of expiring. That is how it should be. You don't rebuild with your core still owed 10s of millions for the next several years.

Regarding Luc's comments...those were made (if I'm not mistaken) before the lottery balls provided karma to the tank crew. And it ignores that Vilardi may never play an NHL game. Bernstein was right when he said that April 9th (draft lottery) may have completely changed the mindset of the Kings brass. On free agency, I never said the Kings should be players in the "big" market. But they do need to fill some holes. Even Blake made that clear (and no, banking on Carter to recapture his youth is not a "plan"). Carter does need to play like an NHL player though...something he didn't do last year. I'll say it again that Blake cannot go into this upcoming season with the gaping holes at 2c and a 4/5 veteran D. Maybe a Quick trade gets the veteran 2c the Kings need. And note I didn't say a "top 4" defenseman...I said a 4/5 guy who can play top 4 minutes. A 2nd tier "bridge" guy if you will.

Lastly, under your "plan", in 2022 the Kings will have (hopefully for them) a few 20-22 year olds ready to contribute (at what level we have no idea yet) and a bunch of 33-37 year olds. That team will be worse than the one they currently have! Where are they going to get the 23-28 year olds that EVERY team needs? Through free agency? Nope. Through trades? Maybe but it will cost draft picks and prospects to get them. It's a huge problem for the organization that not enough people have identified as the key issue in any type of rebuild/retool.

 

[BigKing]

The point on SJ is that their GM didn't panic with the team even after they missed the playoffs as late as 2015. He has constantly been aggressive in trying to make them better. They will rebuild only when the contracts of their older core players have expired or are within a year of expiring. That is how it should be. You don't rebuild with your core still owed 10s of millions for the next several years.

Regarding Luc's comments...those were made (if I'm not mistaken) before the lottery balls provided karma to the tank crew. And it ignores that Vilardi may never play an NHL game. Bernstein was right when he said that April 9th (draft lottery) may have completely changed the mindset of the Kings brass. On free agency, I never said the Kings should be players in the "big" market. But they do need to fill some holes. Even Blake made that clear (and no, banking on Carter to recapture his youth is not a "plan"). Carter does need to play like an NHL player though...something he didn't do last year. I'll say it again that Blake cannot go into this upcoming season with the gaping holes at 2c and a 4/5 veteran D. Maybe a Quick trade gets the veteran 2c the Kings need. And note I didn't say a "top 4" defenseman...I said a 4/5 guy who can play top 4 minutes. A 2nd tier "bridge" guy if you will.

Lastly, under your "plan", in 2022 the Kings will have (hopefully for them) a few 20-22 year olds ready to contribute (at what level we have no idea yet) and a bunch of 33-37 year olds. That team will be worse than the one they currently have! Where are they going to get the 23-28 year olds that EVERY team needs? Through free agency? Nope. Through trades? Maybe but it will cost draft picks and prospects to get them. It's a huge problem for the organization that not enough people have identified as the key issue in any type of rebuild/retool.

Luc's comments are from an article dated June 5th in which the interviewer states she "caught up with" Luc a week ago. This is well past the lottery date. Karma was also not delivered as the Kings finish made it so they couldn't drop past #5 and they pick at the top of the 2nd. The sale of Muzzin also added another 1st--a better than expected on at that--and Grundstrom/Durzi. Not a bad haul for an unexpected and unplanned tank on the fly.

As for SJ...go take a gander at the core player contracts. Nobody over $10MM. Kopitar and Doughty were making more on their 2nd contracts than pretty much all of those guys are making now on their 3rd contracts. They've had the ability to keep all those guys together because they handed out better contracts, save for Paul Martin. They also weren't negotiating with 2-time Cup winners. Regardless, the Kings were not in a retool/rebuild mode until this season: San Jose has just been a much better team than the Kings since 2016. The last time the Kings could really hang with them was in 2016 but they steamrolled the Kings who just didn't have the depth anymore on defense (Bye Mitchell/Greene/Good Scuderi/Regher/Martinez Injured and Hello Luke Schenn!! Bad Scuderi!!! Jamie McBain!!!!). Thornton/Couture/Pavelski has been a lot better than Kopitar/Carter/Brown and especially since 11 and 77 haven't been able to sync up for a good season since 2016. I guess Toffoli is supposed to be our Hertl? Regardless...take a look at them now. Long term deals to older players are just beginning (Burns/Couture/Vlasic) and they don't have a 1st round pick this year or next.

The Kings tried to keep the core going while they were on even cheaper contracts but they failed and didn't properly develop prospects to at least fill in some gaps, never mind be world beaters. They've been going for it while owing them millions and it has gotten them nowhere! The core had their chances but where SJ's core continued to produce, LA's has been uneven. DL mortgaged the future to give them Lucic. Sekera. They make the playoffs in 2018 so Blake hands them a shiny Kovalchuk and they took a shit on Blake's face. 4th coach in three seasons. One playoff win in five years. Carter and Quick with the worst seasons of their respective careers and not getting younger.

Luc flat out said it gets to a point where there isn't a switch to be flipped. They got--and deserved--a ton of rope but it officially ran out with last season. So they owe guys money for a few more years with 11/8 for several. They knew that when they signed the deals and traded for Carter. You have to have ELC and cost-controlled guys to supplement the big contracts and those big contracts have to continue to produce. Last season, we saw what happens when you have neither.

Maybe Blake can sign some bargain bin vet on defense that will take a one-year deal but they are nowhere interested in signing some Jeff Finger contract. They don't want to give term to anyone unless they are in their prime or entering it. Those guys aren't really available on the cheap. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter that they are paying those guys but rather how they are performing and, after last year, they don't deserve even more financial commitments until they prove they can still play. Why throw good money after bad, especially after tossing $18MM of it out the window last off-season?

 

[tomd]

Luc's comments are from an article dated June 5th in which the interviewer states she "caught up with" Luc a week ago. This is well past the lottery date. Karma was also not delivered as the Kings finish made it so they couldn't drop past #5 and they pick at the top of the 2nd. The sale of Muzzin also added another 1st--a better than expected on at that--and Grundstrom/Durzi. Not a bad haul for an unexpected and unplanned tank on the fly.

As for SJ...go take a gander at the core player contracts. Nobody over $10MM. Kopitar and Doughty were making more on their 2nd contracts than pretty much all of those guys are making now on their 3rd contracts. They've had the ability to keep all those guys together because they handed out better contracts, save for Paul Martin. They also weren't negotiating with 2-time Cup winners. Regardless, the Kings were not in a retool/rebuild mode until this season: San Jose has just been a much better team than the Kings since 2016. The last time the Kings could really hang with them was in 2016 but they steamrolled the Kings who just didn't have the depth anymore on defense (Bye Mitchell/Greene/Good Scuderi/Regher/Martinez Injured and Hello Luke Schenn!! Bad Scuderi!!! Jamie McBain!!!!). Thornton/Couture/Pavelski has been a lot better than Kopitar/Carter/Brown and especially since 11 and 77 haven't been able to sync up for a good season since 2016. I guess Toffoli is supposed to be our Hertl? Regardless...take a look at them now. Long term deals to older players are just beginning (Burns/Couture/Vlasic) and they don't have a 1st round pick this year or next.

The Kings tried to keep the core going while they were on even cheaper contracts but they failed and didn't properly develop prospects to at least fill in some gaps, never mind be world beaters. They've been going for it while owing them millions and it has gotten them nowhere! The core had their chances but where SJ's core continued to produce, LA's has been uneven. DL mortgaged the future to give them Lucic. Sekera. They make the playoffs in 2018 so Blake hands them a shiny Kovalchuk and they took a **** on Blake's face. 4th coach in three seasons. One playoff win in five years. Carter and Quick with the worst seasons of their respective careers and not getting younger.

Luc flat out said it gets to a point where there isn't a switch to be flipped. They got--and deserved--a ton of rope but it officially ran out with last season. So they owe guys money for a few more years with 11/8 for several. They knew that when they signed the deals and traded for Carter. You have to have ELC and cost-controlled guys to supplement the big contracts and those big contracts have to continue to produce. Last season, we saw what happens when you have neither.

Maybe Blake can sign some bargain bin vet on defense that will take a one-year deal but they are nowhere interested in signing some Jeff Finger contract. They don't want to give term to anyone unless they are in their prime or entering it. Those guys aren't really available on the cheap. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter that they are paying those guys but rather how they are performing and, after last year, they don't deserve even more financial commitments until they prove they can still play. Why throw good money after bad, especially after tossing $18MM of it out the window last off-season?

Love the discussion...and yes, you make arguments that I could easily make as well because a rebuild is a very tempting option...especially when most fans have grown to dislike the veterans as much as they do in LA.

I personally think Luc's comments were idiotic and counterproductive. Even in a rebuild you have to hold everyone accountable. Who is accountable in the organization right now? Blake/Luc? Doesn't seem like it. TM? How can he be accountable without a GM committed to giving him a decent roster? Players? Not a chance.

So now you have an organ-eye-zation that is developing and furthering a losing and unaccountable culture. They are right back to 2006. And worse than that the Kings are going to try to infuse young players into a culture of losing while enjoying every distraction that living at the beach has to offer. I'm not a big fan of Dean Lombardi (to say the least) but the one thing he changed was the culture of the team. That is now totally lost. And once lost, it will be hard to bring back. Talent alone will not do it. Everyone has to be driven by success and offer no excuses for losing. Luc's comments only fed into that narrative. Shame on him!

I'd rather have ownership who demands success; a GM who demands success; a coach who demands success; and players who demand success of themselves!! And most of all, FANS who demand success. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how long you rebuild...you'll be a losing franchise.

Maybe it starts at the very top with AEG and Staples and the Lakers. The Lakers have been a train wreck for the better part of a decade with no end in sight. Their "rebuild" has been a disaster (something Kings fans should think about). None of the teams making Staples their home (kings, lakers, and clippers) have had any playoff success for at least the last 4 years. That has to be killing revenues and creating a culture of chaos and losing at the very top within Staples/AEG. If ownership will accept a losing culture, why shouldn't we expect the GM, coach, and players to do so as well. Right now, it seems like there are too many fans who are giving everyone in the organ-eye-zation a pass. That is wrong. If the fans don't demand success then ownership will simply continue to take your money with no consequences. Who are the suckers then?

 

[BigKing]

Love the discussion...and yes, you make arguments that I could easily make as well because a rebuild is a very tempting option...especially when most fans have grown to dislike the veterans as much as they do in LA.

I personally think Luc's comments were idiotic and counterproductive. Even in a rebuild you have to hold everyone accountable. Who is accountable in the organization right now? Blake/Luc? Doesn't seem like it. TM? How can he be accountable without a GM committed to giving him a decent roster? Players? Not a chance.

So now you have an organ-eye-zation that is developing and furthering a losing and unaccountable culture. They are right back to 2006. And worse than that the Kings are going to try to infuse young players into a culture of losing while enjoying every distraction that living at the beach has to offer. I'm not a big fan of Dean Lombardi (to say the least) but the one thing he changed was the culture of the team. That is now totally lost. And once lost, it will be hard to bring back. Talent alone will not do it. Everyone has to be driven by success and offer no excuses for losing. Luc's comments only fed into that narrative. Shame on him!

I'd rather have ownership who demands success; a GM who demands success; a coach who demands success; and players who demand success of themselves!! And most of all, FANS who demand success. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how long you rebuild...you'll be a losing franchise.

Maybe it starts at the very top with AEG and Staples and the Lakers. The Lakers have been a train wreck for the better part of a decade with no end in sight. Their "rebuild" has been a disaster (something Kings fans should think about). None of the teams making Staples their home (kings, lakers, and clippers) have had any playoff success for at least the last 4 years. That has to be killing revenues and creating a culture of chaos and losing at the very top within Staples/AEG. If ownership will accept a losing culture, why shouldn't we expect the GM, coach, and players to do so as well. Right now, it seems like there are too many fans who are giving everyone in the organ-eye-zation a pass. That is wrong. If the fans don't demand success then ownership will simply continue to take your money with no consequences. Who are the suckers then?

I appreciate your point of view as well since I was also of the same mindset until I saw a rebuild turn into the happiest moments of my life. Hell...I wanted Giguere when his contract was up with the Ducks. I wanted them to sign Lecavalier, Drury...anybody to stop the losing.

T-Mac is supposed to hold the players that are on the team accountable for their play: adding or not adding players doesn't change that fact. If he takes basically the same roster and they improve by 10-12 points, that is a step forward, right? 81-83 points with the same team when 90 points got you a playoff spot this season seems like a step forward: especially if they play with some structure and effort can't be questioned like it so often was last season.

Lombardi's culture didn't begin the second he set foot in LA and he also introduced young players into a losing environment. Kings picked 4th/2nd/5th three years in a row. The whole point of giving T-Mac a five year deal and "tossing away" this season is to reset everything and try to rebuild a culture that began to erode with Voynov, was made worse with the Richards situation and captaincy change until it finally cratered with the players not wanting to put forth the effort required under Sutter Hockey, ultimately leading to his and Lombardi's dismissal. I agree that it is lost. If they are back to 2006 again, why go after more vets when 2006 was when a full rebuild started?

They are back at square one except they aren't in a full rebuild since they have 11 and 8, hence the "retool on the fly" that many on here have advocated. It isn't a complete tear down since the foundation has NMCs so it is more of a remodel. There is no quick fix for this upcoming season and it is probably prudent to see how each player--young and old alike--plays for their new coach with the long contract. T-Mac will be integral to instilling the proper culture and accountability. As for Blake's role in accountability, not giving these big dollar players additional help after crapping the bed is the most he can do to make them accountable this side of trading them. They shit the bed: they clean the sheets. Make those sheets nice and clean again, maybe Blake gets you a nice sleep number mattress and has some youngsters that can help make the bed for you on top of it all.

They expect the existing vets to be better next season. I think that is expecting some accountability. If 11/8/32/77 aren't killing it, some 4-5 defenseman isn't going to matter. They had a pretty good one in Muzzin last year and it meant jack shit. With the contracts already in place on this team, they should expect to win games and there shouldn't be any excuses. I also don't think AEG accepts a losing culture since they canned the best coach and GM this team ever had three years after winning a 2nd Cup and they gave the go-ahead for Blake to spend $18MM of their money on a 35+ year old that hadn't played NHL hockey for years. What they are tired of is five years of big contracts giving them no results. They don't trust these guys and, honestly, they shouldn't.

I don't say all of this because I dislike the vets. These guys are all made men in my book. As it relates to current results, however, I can be honest about their performance. The contracts don't matter: it is a sunk cost on a few of these guys. The main thing is optimizing the Doughty/Kopitar years since there are a lot more of those and they should be more than serviceable--hopefully much more than serviceable--by Luc's 2021 (more like 2022) time frame. This current draft is immensely important with the three picks in the top 32 or whatever. Having two first rounders next season would be pretty nice as well, if possible. Remember though that it won't just be 11/8 and current prospects: they will have tons of space to go after the kind of guys you want them to go after.

 

[KINGS17]

Love the discussion...and yes, you make arguments that I could easily make as well because a rebuild is a very tempting option...especially when most fans have grown to dislike the veterans as much as they do in LA.

I personally think Luc's comments were idiotic and counterproductive. Even in a rebuild you have to hold everyone accountable. Who is accountable in the organization right now? Blake/Luc? Doesn't seem like it. TM? How can he be accountable without a GM committed to giving him a decent roster? Players? Not a chance.

So now you have an organ-eye-zation that is developing and furthering a losing and unaccountable culture. They are right back to 2006. And worse than that the Kings are going to try to infuse young players into a culture of losing while enjoying every distraction that living at the beach has to offer. I'm not a big fan of Dean Lombardi (to say the least) but the one thing he changed was the culture of the team. That is now totally lost. And once lost, it will be hard to bring back. Talent alone will not do it. Everyone has to be driven by success and offer no excuses for losing. Luc's comments only fed into that narrative. Shame on him!

I'd rather have ownership who demands success; a GM who demands success; a coach who demands success; and players who demand success of themselves!! And most of all, FANS who demand success. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how long you rebuild...you'll be a losing franchise.

Maybe it starts at the very top with AEG and Staples and the Lakers. The Lakers have been a train wreck for the better part of a decade with no end in sight. Their "rebuild" has been a disaster (something Kings fans should think about). None of the teams making Staples their home (kings, lakers, and clippers) have had any playoff success for at least the last 4 years. That has to be killing revenues and creating a culture of chaos and losing at the very top within Staples/AEG. If ownership will accept a losing culture, why shouldn't we expect the GM, coach, and players to do so as well. Right now, it seems like there are too many fans who are giving everyone in the organ-eye-zation a pass. That is wrong. If the fans don't demand success then ownership will simply continue to take your money with no consequences. Who are the suckers then?

I am not giving AEG and the Kings a dime until I see a workable plan, and it is publicized so ownership and the Kings front office can be held accountable by the fans. Not sure what your problem is with Dean Lombardi. He is the only GM in Kings history who articulated his plan, stuck with it, and executed it with results.

Accountability for Todd McLellan will come in the form of installing a system and creating a structure that can be followed in both the NHL and AHL. Not sure why you think he was brought in here to win now. The five year deal tells me and should tell the lazy vets on the roster that he will be here long after they are gone, so they better be prepared to get shipped out if they don't shape up and give a professional hockey player's effort in every way.

I don't know why you think anyone here is giving the organization a pass. People are pissed at management and the players, and rightfully so. The players who were supposed to pick up the mantle of leadership have failed miserably. Management can't do an honest assessment of where the team is in terms of being in contention, etc. I understand why Dean Lombardi was let go, but this kind of situation, if he was not the former GM, is one he is eminently qualified to fix. The man knows how to build a culture from scratch. He just couldn't figure out how to stay on top of the mountain by refreshing the roster.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

 

[lumbergh]

Really? Sabotage is a strong word, but some players are just not as capable as others. What do you think Dean was doing when he brought Modry back?

Modry was a good soldier, pretty good guy in the room, good work ethic, so Dean didn't mind having him around. Was he going to in the playoffs with Modry someday? No.

Why was Muzzin traded and replaced by (oh, we don't have someone of equal talent)?

Trades like that are the GM throwing banana peels in the path of the remaining roster.

When it comes to winning cups in LA, this core is done.

I just thought I would point you to BigKing’s avatar quote.

 

[kingsholygrail]

But the week-old fruit is not saleable!!

My model for LA is the San Jose model. How many years now has everyone written off the Sharks? Marleau and Thornton were too old 7 years ago! They didn't have any top 5 draft choices to rebuild the franchise. Burns and Pavelski were in their 30s and past their prime. But with all that every year they made the playoffs. Then this year they went out and got Karlsson. Why would they do that? A "pragmatist" like yourself would have given up on them years ago. And yet they came within a game of the SC finals this year. Do you think their fans are mad at the franchise for not tanking when all their stars were in their 30's? I don't think so. They acted pragmatically and built around their aging core. And it worked. That is what the Kings should be doing. It is the only realistic avenue they have given the contracts they are dealing with.

I still write off the Sharks. It's a whiney band of losers.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

 

[BigKing]

I just thought I would point you to BigKing’s avatar quote.

Once in a blue moon, someone at Staples will yell at me "Modry Sucks" since they sat in or around my section in the early 2000's. I was pretty insufferable.

Now I'm just insufferable to those sitting within earshot of my normal speaking voice at the games, for the most part.