Around the League 2018-2019 Part 3

[kings11]

Again, you start negotiating while they are under contract so saying adios means you could trade him.

You absolutely could have and I guarantee we would be worse than the Oilers are now but without a McDavid.. Just our draft luck
A Kopitar, Doughty and Quick dont grow on trees.. Our problem isnt our star players its the fact that the supporting cast fell off nad was never properly replaced...
I've gotten crap because I wanted Forbort over McNabb but you guys were crying when I said it was the right time to move Muzzin and Martinez...

Hindsight is great for the " I told you so " crowd, even though you guys wanted to move the wrong guys....but the fact is those key guys were never going anywhere and no one knew our depth would be 8 man football deep!.... Hell, who knew JDub would be better than Pearson, Toffoli, Carter or Kempe at this stage of his career??

 

[kings11]

Agreed Ovechkin is close. He was slightly over 12% of their cap when they won last year. Very talented player with a contract to match. Glad he finally won a cup.

But they made hugh mistakes with trades(Forsberg) and how they filled their roster but they finally became competent...
Our biggest mistakes were not moving Muzzin and Martinez the season before the expansion draft and not moving Toffoli sooner... Those guys at that time would have returned the needed picks, depth and youth this team needed then and now..

 

[KINGS17]

But they made hugh mistakes with trades(Forsberg) and how they filled their roster but they finally became competent...
Our biggest mistakes were not moving Muzzin and Martinez the season before the expansion draft and not moving Toffoli sooner... Those guys at that time would have returned the needed picks, depth and youth this team needed then and now..

I would have thrown Carter into that barrel as well once Kopitar signed his deal. The Kings needed a younger 2C, and Carter would have been a very attractive piece to some team's puzzle back then.

 

[KINGS17]

You absolutely could have and I guarantee we would be worse than the Oilers are now but without a McDavid.. Just our draft luck
A Kopitar, Doughty and Quick dont grow on trees.. Our problem isnt our star players its the fact that the supporting cast fell off nad was never properly replaced...
I've gotten crap because I wanted Forbort over McNabb but you guys were crying when I said it was the right time to move Muzzin and Martinez...

Hindsight is great for the " I told you so " crowd, even though you guys wanted to move the wrong guys....but the fact is those key guys were never going anywhere and no one knew our depth would be 8 man football deep!.... Hell, who knew JDub would be better than Pearson, Toffoli, Carter or Kempe at this stage of his career??

Sorry, but the inconsistency of Kopitar and Doughty is a major problem for this organization.

 

[kings11]

I would have thrown Carter into that barrel as well once Kopitar signed his deal. The Kings needed a younger 2C, and Carter would have been a very attractive piece to some team's puzzle back then.

We talked about that as well.. but boy was there backlash...
Kopitar could score 100+ points, Doughty could win the Norris and Quick could become Quick and again and we'd still struggle.. even if we made teh playoffs we'd struggle because we just dont have anything that resembles depth...
Carter at this point needs to just be 70% of his old slef and we'd get some nice pieces
Toffoli just needs to go
Martinez needs to get us a quality #5 RHD ... on a ELC with size.. you know, a Erik Cernak type

 

[KINGS17]

We talked about that as well.. but boy was there backlash...
Kopitar could score 100+ points, Doughty could win the Norris and Quick could become Quick and again and we'd still struggle.. even if we made teh playoffs we'd struggle because we just dont have anything that resembles depth...
Carter at this point needs to just be 70% of his old slef and we'd get some nice pieces
Toffoli just needs to go
Martinez needs to get us a quality #5 RHD ... on a ELC with size.. you know, a Erik Cernak type

Yeah, Nashville in particular was ripe for the picking in a deal for Carter for a couple years after Kopitar signed his deal.

 

[kings11]

Sorry, but the inconsistency of Kopitar and Doughty is a major problem for this organization.

Oh it is, but its not the reason this team is in this position..
You cannot play Kopitar and Doughty the minutes they have and expect everythimg to be ok.. Lack of depth forced Kopitar to be out there down 2-7 goals.. the idiocy of the coaches caused those guys to exhaust themselves.. We sugar coat that part of their inconsistencies are in part do to the minutes they played.. Carter's injury and terrible play was a cause, Toffoli and Pearson's declines were a cause, Kempe's lack of development is a cause, no Stoll replacement is a cuase.. there's plenty of blame to go around but "IMHO" it magnifies the disarray and inconsistencies of the coaching staffs and the FOs philosophy .. Do they not see whats happening and why TF did they allow it to continue??

Teams may be built from the Goalie out, but the decisions and ideas come from the top and trickle down

 

[kings11]

Yeah, Nashville in particular was ripe for the picking in a deal for Carter for a couple years after Kopitar signed his deal.

Kempe - Amadio - Wagner
Iafallo - Lewis - Grundstrom

Thats better depth and a better bottom 6 than we've had in years yet we miscast(Iafallo & Kempe), demoted (Amadio & Wagner) and kept oldies (Lewis, Thompson)... After the '14 Cup, this team has been mistake prone to the tenth degree.. I just want a damn plan, I want to see what direction they plan on leading this team in.. I'm really angry!

 

[KINGS17]

Kempe - Amadio - Wagner
Iafallo - Lewis - Grundstrom

Thats better depth and a better bottom 6 than we've had in years yet we miscast(Iafallo & Kempe), demoted (Amadio & Wagner) and kept oldies (Lewis, Thompson)... After the '14 Cup, this team has been mistake prone to the tenth degree.. I just want a damn plan, I want to see what direction they plan on leading this team in.. I'm really angry!

Too many missing pieces from the top six forwards, and top four on defense for any plan to work relatively soon.

 

[kings11]

Too many missing pieces from the top six forwards, and top four on defense for any plan to work relatively soon.

Going back to thos micues... Our RHD depth would have been
Doughty
Cernak.. Traded because of attitude??
McKeown... Tradedbecause he was soft??
Damn, i'm just going to stick to the draft thread before I punch my computer

 

[redcard]

Malkin also made $9.5 both years Pittsburgh won the cup. 13.38% of the cap.

Given that only Pittsburgh and Washington have won the cup since the first 10M+ contracts kicked in* and each had a 9.5 player, I don't buy the "can't win with a 10M player" argument. Its far too small of a sample size to equate any significance to. Both teams also had players on contracts that would be deemed illegal under the current cba.

The cap goes up, contracts go up, rules change, only 1 team wins per year. Too many factors go into winning a cup that trying to draw conclusions from their salary structure is rather pointless.




*argument valid through 6/12/2019

 

[SettlementRichie10]

But my point is there is no rule. Are there a ton of examples of junior-aged players having back injuries or surgeries? There's Scott Barney, but hard to say if he would have been an impact player, and it's not like he was out of hockey, he lit up the AHL for years. There's Muzzin. There's Olli Juolevi, guess jury's still out on that one. If anything, in each case, the guy went on to play pro hockey. Vilardi would be the exception if he doesn't play at all. But again, uncertainty, not rules.

Like everyone here, I really hope Vilardi’s health turns around. And yes, as you’ve shown here, there is precedent. But I just don’t have a lot of hope, mainly because the exact nature of Vilardi’s back issues doesn’t even seem to be known - by anyone.

I think it’s a coin flip whether he ever plays in the NHL. He’s going to miss yet another development camp this year. And I think the odds of him becoming a legitimate top six 50+ point center is closer to zero than a coin flip.

 

[KINGS17]

Malkin also made $9.5 both years Pittsburgh won the cup. 13.38% of the cap.

Given that only Pittsburgh and Washington have won the cup since the first 10M+ contracts kicked in* and each had a 9.5 player, I don't buy the "can't win with a 10M player" argument. Its far too small of a sample size to equate any significance to. Both teams also had players on contracts that would be deemed illegal under the current cba.

The cap goes up, contracts go up, rules change, only 1 team wins per year. Too many factors go into winning a cup that trying to draw conclusions from their salary structure is rather pointless.




*argument valid through 6/12/2019

Crosby and Malkin perhaps the best two players in the world at that time, and Crosby on a sweetheart deal in terms of cap hit.

There are always outliers. Kopitar and Doughty, Kane and Toews, aren't even in the same ballpark as Crosby and Malkin.

Kane, Toews, and Kopitar don't take sub-20 goal wingers and turn them into 30-goals wingers the way Crosby and Malkin do it.

 

[Little Psycho]

Wonder who'll be dumb enough to take Perry's contract.

 

[BigKing]

You absolutely could have and I guarantee we would be worse than the Oilers are now but without a McDavid.. Just our draft luck
A Kopitar, Doughty and Quick dont grow on trees.. Our problem isnt our star players its the fact that the supporting cast fell off nad was never properly replaced...
I've gotten crap because I wanted Forbort over McNabb but you guys were crying when I said it was the right time to move Muzzin and Martinez...

Hindsight is great for the " I told you so " crowd, even though you guys wanted to move the wrong guys....but the fact is those key guys were never going anywhere and no one knew our depth would be 8 man football deep!.... Hell, who knew JDub would be better than Pearson, Toffoli, Carter or Kempe at this stage of his career??

I'm not arguing for/against the idea of moving Kopitar but rather refuting GBH's posts since he was incorrectly stating K17's points while also not understanding how contract extensions work when trying to use Kane/Toews as an example.

As for being worse than the Oilers if they traded Kopitar, well, check the standings.

 

[KINGS17]

Wonder who'll be dumb enough to take Perry's contract.

I don't think a playoff team would take him without significant retention of Perry's cap hit.

 

[kings11]

I'm not arguing for/against the idea of moving Kopitar but rather refuting GBH's posts since he was incorrectly stating K17's points while also not understanding how contract extensions work when trying to use Kane/Toews as an example.

As for being worse than the Oilers if they traded Kopitar, well, check the standings.

The standing are irrelevant.. I'll say this again, Kopitar had less than 10 points in the 20 games of the season then went on to score 51 points in 61 games... but it didnt mean crap because we lack depth, we never replaced our depth as the team grew older and the kids we do have now were treated to the WD40 shit show... I know I keep bringing up Michael Amadio, but look at the kids production when he actually played minutes.. look at his linemates and how they overachieved when he centered him then look at how he was told to kick rocks so Nate f***en Thompson could replace him and even play on the top 6 and got PP time... I blame the FO and the coaches for their failures as coaches, mentors and educators.. TMac might not be a sexy name but his guys always come to play... and he knows how to intergrate the younger guys..

 

[redcard]

Crosby and Malkin perhaps the best two players in the world at that time, and Crosby on a sweetheart deal in terms of cap hit.

There are always outliers. Kopitar and Doughty, Kane and Toews, aren't even in the same ballpark as Crosby and Malkin.

Kane, Toews, and Kopitar don't take sub-20 goal wingers and turn them into 30-goals wingers the way Crosby and Malkin do it.

That doesn't refute the point I'm making. Stanley cup winners are outliers. 1 out of 31 teams wins every year. Since the first 10m+ contracts kicked in only 3 out of 91 teams have won the cup.

Sure, none of those 3 teams had 10M+ players, but neither did 82 of the 88 teams that didn't win the cup. You can't conclude causation from that.

Furthermore, and I don't want this to distract from the far more important point I'm making above, Crosby's contract is illegal under current terms, the AAV of the first 8 years of his current deal is $10.8m. The cap was $64.3M the first year of his deal. If they had to follow the same rules the Kings did with Kopitar, Crosby's first year would have accounted for 16.7% of his teams cap. 15.1% and 14.8% for their two respective cups.

Every year that goes by there will be more teams with $10M+ contracts. Every year that goes by the Salary Cap will rise (on average at least). Every year that goes by Kopitar and Doughty's contracts will take up a smaller percentage of the cap and they'll move down the list of highest paid players. Every year that goes by the impact of the illegal contracts will be reduced. Yet there will still only be 1 winner per year.

 

[YP44]

Wonder who'll be dumb enough to take Perry's contract.

I think there will be teams that will offer another bad contract going the other way for him. I would think Edmonton would gladly to Lucic as it would get them out of the deal earlier. I could see Ottawa being a landing spot, as well as Detroit if Anaheim pays a premium.

 

[redcard]

I think there will be teams that will offer another bad contract going the other way for him. I would think Edmonton would gladly to Lucic as it would get them out of the deal earlier. I could see Ottawa being a landing spot, as well as Detroit if Anaheim pays a premium.

He's still owed $15 million in cash, can't see Ottawa or Detroit picking up that price tag. Honestly, a Perry buyout wouldn't be that bad. Save 6M in cap space next year, 2M in cap space the following year, lose 2M in cap space for two years after that. Net cap savings of 4M over the course of the buyout, but more importantly 7M in total cash savings.

 

[YP44]

He's still owed $15 million in cash, can't see Ottawa or Detroit picking up that price tag. Honestly, a Perry buyout wouldn't be that bad. Save 6M in cap space next year, 2M in cap space the following year, lose 2M in cap space for two years after that. Net cap savings of 4M over the course of the buyout, but more importantly 7M in total cash savings.

depends on sweetner/retention. I agree most likely is Buyout but could see him moved too.

 

[BigKing]

The standing are irrelevant.. I'll say this again, Kopitar had less than 10 points in the 20 games of the season then went on to score 51 points in 61 games... but it didnt mean crap because we lack depth, we never replaced our depth as the team grew older and the kids we do have now were treated to the WD40 **** show... I know I keep bringing up Michael Amadio, but look at the kids production when he actually played minutes.. look at his linemates and how they overachieved when he centered him then look at how he was told to kick rocks so Nate ****en Thompson could replace him and even play on the top 6 and got PP time... I blame the FO and the coaches for their failures as coaches, mentors and educators.. TMac might not be a sexy name but his guys always come to play... and he knows how to intergrate the younger guys..

Believe me: I get it.

Just to play devil's (K17) advocate though, don't those 20 games count? What was Kopitar's final point tally for the season? Should someone being paid $10MM+ put up a stat line that poor? If the standings are irrelevant, why do they play the games?

His whole point is that they aren't a contender with him so the argument of saying they would be worse without him is a tough one to make since they just put down a turd of a season and then could only score three total goals in the playoffs during the best year of his career. Would they be even worse? Of course. His point is that it doesn't matter for the present and very near future but it will matter when we are hoping for 60 points from him in a couple of years.

We just have to hope that he can age like a Joe Thornton because there isn't enough support at present and there probably won't be for a couple of seasons. He needs to still be a special player in 2-3 years when the Kings are rid of some of these other big-dollar contracts and these prospects are hopefully contributing.

 

[KINGS17]

The standing are irrelevant.. I'll say this again, Kopitar had less than 10 points in the 20 games of the season then went on to score 51 points in 61 games... but it didnt mean crap because we lack depth, we never replaced our depth as the team grew older and the kids we do have now were treated to the WD40 **** show... I know I keep bringing up Michael Amadio, but look at the kids production when he actually played minutes.. look at his linemates and how they overachieved when he centered him then look at how he was told to kick rocks so Nate ****en Thompson could replace him and even play on the top 6 and got PP time... I blame the FO and the coaches for their failures as coaches, mentors and educators.. TMac might not be a sexy name but his guys always come to play... and he knows how to intergrate the younger guys..

All the games count. Right now Anze Kopitar is in the same class as Dean put Mike Cammalleri in a number of years ago. He is the best player on a bad team. The Kings can be a bad team without him or Doughty.

 

[redcard]

depends on sweetner/retention. I agree most likely is Buyout but could see him moved too.

Yeah, but its tricky with budget teams and that Perry's contract isn't heavily front loaded and only has 3m in signing bonus left (and only for the final year). Maybe you can look at NYR and do a Perry + pick for Staal swap. Saves the Ducks 3m in cap space each season and better buyout terms. Rangers seem committed to a rebuild and can handle Perry's salary better than Ottawa or Detroit would be able to and should therefore require a lessor sweetner.

 

[tomd]

Believe me: I get it.

Just to play devil's (K17) advocate though, don't those 20 games count? What was Kopitar's final point tally for the season? Should someone being paid $10MM+ put up a stat line that poor? If the standings are irrelevant, why do they play the games?

His whole point is that they aren't a contender with him so the argument of saying they would be worse without him is a tough one to make since they just put down a turd of a season and then could only score three total goals in the playoffs during the best year of his career. Would they be even worse? Of course. His point is that it doesn't matter for the present and very near future but it will matter when we are hoping for 60 points from him in a couple of years.

We just have to hope that he can age like a Joe Thornton because there isn't enough support at present and there probably won't be for a couple of seasons. He needs to still be a special player in 2-3 years when the Kings are rid of some of these other big-dollar contracts and these prospects are hopefully contributing.

Kopitar certainly shares some blame for last year's debacle. He needs to rededicate himself to being an elite athlete in the NHL. Hopefully a new coach will help that process. Now Blake/Luc need to do their job and get him some creative offensive players to help him. If Blake can't do it then AEG needs to get a GM who can. I'm sure AEG is less than pleased spending first place money on a last place team.