Around the League 2018-2019 Part 3

[kings11]

All the games count. Right now Anze Kopitar is in the same class as Dean put Mike Cammalleri in a number of years ago. He is the best player on a bad team. The Kings can be a bad team without him or Doughty.

Except... the FO and AEG

I like and respect everyones comments on here.. But I cannot and will not underestimate the value and play of Kopitar and Doughty... hell look at the STL Blues who were battling with us for last place until the ASG and yet they're in the SCF.. Not one of their players is of the caliber of Kopi or Drew and yet look at what real, capable, NHL depth does for a team.. Tarasenko wasnt even worth his paycheck until a few games ago but the depth allowed them to overcome that...

I dont want to say if a lot but if Carter can regain 70% of what he was, thatsa still an above average 2C in the NHL.
Toffoli is likely rebounding because he wants to get paid and hopefully that doesnt blind the FO and we move him for assets. Roalnd McKeown and the Sabres 2nd this draft is acceptable as a start
Martinez will continue decline because as I said 3 years ago, being thinly built and playing a max effort, shot blocking with your body game will age you quickly.. He's not rebounding but he would help solidify a contender.. assets, assets, assets is the name of teh game with these guys.. Taylor Raddysh would be a good get for us plus a pick..

Prokhorkin is going to open a lot of eyes this season! the guy at minimum should be a 20/20 guy but dont be surprised if he turned into a more motivated and determined Alexander Frolov... he's that good.. Now all of a sudden the depth we lacked is somewhat returning..

The more i see this team on paper the easier its becoming for me to say we will not make the playoffs but we will be competitive and score more but we'll lose a lot because of our Defense.. unless Quick pulls another stellar odd year.. Here's hoping we hit paydirt with that 5th overall pick.. come on Bowen Byram

EDIT: Although i do reply to individual posters on here like K17, I also add in a lot of general commantary.. so I hope you guys dont feel like its all for you so to speak.. I tend to have geneal comments that i find easier to just put into one comment than to find the correct thread.. Althoooough, I would like to see more comments in the BEER thread because i've noticed my beloved El Segundo Brewing isnt getting all the love they deserve

 

[KINGS17]

Except... the FO and AEG

I like and respect everyones comments on here.. But I cannot and will not underestimate the value and play of Kopitar and Doughty... hell look at the STL Blues who were battling with us for last place until the ASG and yet they're in the SCF.. Not one of their players is of the caliber of Kopi or Drew and yet look at what real, capable, NHL depth does for a team.. Tarasenko wasnt even worth his paycheck until a few games ago but the depth allowed them to overcome that...

I dont want to say if a lot but if Carter can regain 70% of what he was, thatsa still an above average 2C in the NHL.
Toffoli is likely rebounding because he wants to get paid and hopefully that doesnt blind the FO and we move him for assets. Roalnd McKeown and the Sabres 2nd this draft is acceptable as a start
Martinez will continue decline because as I said 3 years ago, being thinly built and playing a max effort, shot blocking with your body game will age you quickly.. He's not rebounding but he would help solidify a contender.. assets, assets, assets is the name of teh game with these guys.. Taylor Raddysh would be a good get for us plus a pick..

Prokhorkin is going to open a lot of eyes this season! the guy at minimum should be a 20/20 guy but dont be surprised if he turned into a more motivated and determined Alexander Frolov... he's that good.. Now all of a sudden the depth we lacked is somewhat returning..

The more i see this team on paper the easier its becoming for me to say we will not make the playoffs but we will be competitive and score more but we'll lose a lot because of our Defense.. unless Quick pulls another stellar odd year.. Here's hoping we hit paydirt with that 5th overall pick.. come on Bowen Byram

EDIT: Although i do reply to individual posters on here like K17, I also add in a lot of general commantary.. so I hope you guys dont feel like its all for you so to speak.. I tend to have geneal comments that i find easier to just put into one comment than to find the correct thread.. Althoooough, I would like to see more comments in the BEER thread because i've noticed my beloved El Segundo Brewing isnt getting all the love they deserve

I admire your optimism.

 

[crassbonanza]

Since Kopitar entered the league in '06-'07 he is 6th in the NHL in scoring. He is a season removed from a Selke winning, Hart finalist season. You do not find players like him very often.
I know that fans always want to blow the team up because draft picks are 'sexy'(remember that avatar thing from like '08?), but you are not likely to get anyone near the caliber of player that Kopitar is now.

I don't know why it is so hard for some to understand that keeping Kopitar is not the reason the team fell apart, it is the lack of complimentary pieces to help carry the load. During his Hart finalist season, everyone was talking about Hall was completely carrying the load for the Devs, when Kopitar actually had a very similar role in team scoring(92 points from 236 team goals) than Hall did(93 points from 237 team goals).

If you have a player that can produce in that fashion while also playing Selke winning defense and starting a vast majority of his shifts in the Dzone, you don't dump him over a million in AAV. Instead of just giving up on him because he is getting older, you find secondary pieces that can help alleviate the load. Since '09-'10 Kopitar leads forwards with 16,248 regular season minutes, the next closest forward is Giroux with 15,569, all while playing heavy, defensive hockey.

I just think people should worry about the support players, rather than complaining about Kopitar making 10 million instead of 9.5.

 

[kings11]

I admire your optimism.

Hey, I stuck by the Lakers when Xavier Lloyd, Tony Smith, Cedric Ceballos, Sedale Threatt and the rest of those superstars led us to glory lol ... I'm not giving up on my Kings!

EDIT: I've seen the darkness

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Since Kopitar entered the league in '06-'07 he is 6th in the NHL in scoring. He is a season removed from a Selke winning, Hart finalist season. You do not find players like him very often.
I know that fans always want to blow the team up because draft picks are 'sexy'(remember that avatar thing from like '08?), but you are not likely to get anyone near the caliber of player that Kopitar is now.

I don't know why it is so hard for some to understand that keeping Kopitar is not the reason the team fell apart, it is the lack of complimentary pieces to help carry the load. During his Hart finalist season, everyone was talking about Hall was completely carrying the load for the Devs, when Kopitar actually had a very similar role in team scoring(92 points from 236 team goals) than Hall did(93 points from 237 team goals).

If you have a player that can produce in that fashion while also playing Selke winning defense and starting a vast majority of his shifts in the Dzone, you don't dump him over a million in AAV. Instead of just giving up on him because he is getting older, you find secondary pieces that can help alleviate the load. Since '09-'10 Kopitar leads forwards with 16,248 regular season minutes, the next closest forward is Giroux with 15,569, all while playing heavy, defensive hockey.

I just think people should worry about the support players, rather than complaining about Kopitar making 10 million instead of 9.5.

No one is disputing Kopitar’s value in a vacuum.

People are disputing Kopitar meaning more than f*** all to this franchise as we trudge through a rebuild.

Kopitar’s career season saw him barely get us into the playoffs and then get swept. That’s how bad the Kings are right now.

So if Kopitar’s best amounts to that little, why is he on this team?

If he was 24 and we were slowly putting together a new core, yeah, he serves a future role here. But now? Eh.

 

[King'sPawn]

Hockeydb doesn’t track his stats or games played before the 06/07 season. I don’t know what’s going on there. I didn’t know he missed the entire 05/06 season. I thought he only missed half of 06/07.

In any case, Muzzin is the exception, not the rule.

Hockeydb only tracks certain leagues. Not midget, bantam, etc.

It also doesn't have international tournament numbers.

Eliteprospects is more in depth with this information, just fyi.

www.eliteprospects.com/player/13614/jake-muzzin

 

[crassbonanza]

No one is disputing Kopitar’s value in a vacuum.

People are disputing Kopitar meaning more than **** all to this franchise as we trudge through a rebuild.

Kopitar’s career season saw him barely get us into the playoffs and then get swept. That’s how bad the Kings are right now.

So if Kopitar’s best amounts to that little, why is he on this team?

If he was 24 and we were slowly putting together a new core, yeah, he serves a future role here. But now? Eh.

Kopitar's career season showed that he could put a team on his back and carry them into the playoffs. The second line center was 20 year old Kempe for f***s sake. He is on the team because if you can find good secondary pieces to fill in around him the team can be good in short order.

Look at Bergeron and the Bruins, they missed the playoffs in back to back seasons from '14-'16 when Bergeron was 29 and 30 for those seasons.
Do you think that there was value in the Bruins keeping him around?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Kopitar's career season showed that he could put a team on his back and carry them into the playoffs. The second line center was 20 year old Kempe for ****s sake. He is on the team because if you can find good secondary pieces to fill in around him the team can be good in short order.

Look at Bergeron and the Bruins, they missed the playoffs in back to back seasons from '14-'16 when Bergeron was 29 and 30 for those seasons.
Do you think that there was value in the Bruins keeping him around?

Nope, should have jettisoned him, Chara, Krejc etc, waste of perfectly good cap space....

 

[kings11]

No one is disputing Kopitar’s value in a vacuum.

People are disputing Kopitar meaning more than **** all to this franchise as we trudge through a rebuild.

Kopitar’s career season saw him barely get us into the playoffs and then get swept. That’s how bad the Kings are right now.

So if Kopitar’s best amounts to that little, why is he on this team?

If he was 24 and we were slowly putting together a new core, yeah, he serves a future role here. But now? Eh.

Agree with your comment...
However, lets not forget we held the VGK to 7 goals.. not in a game but in the entire series! they scored that in multiple playoff games the last 2 seasons.. Yes im beating a dead horse but had we had some depth we likely beat them.. But it didnt happen and all people remember is we got swept but it was much, much closer than that..

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Since Kopitar entered the league in '06-'07 he is 6th in the NHL in scoring. He is a season removed from a Selke winning, Hart finalist season. You do not find players like him very often.
I know that fans always want to blow the team up because draft picks are 'sexy'(remember that avatar thing from like '08?), but you are not likely to get anyone near the caliber of player that Kopitar is now.

I don't know why it is so hard for some to understand that keeping Kopitar is not the reason the team fell apart, it is the lack of complimentary pieces to help carry the load. During his Hart finalist season, everyone was talking about Hall was completely carrying the load for the Devs, when Kopitar actually had a very similar role in team scoring(92 points from 236 team goals) than Hall did(93 points from 237 team goals).

If you have a player that can produce in that fashion while also playing Selke winning defense and starting a vast majority of his shifts in the Dzone, you don't dump him over a million in AAV. Instead of just giving up on him because he is getting older, you find secondary pieces that can help alleviate the load. Since '09-'10 Kopitar leads forwards with 16,248 regular season minutes, the next closest forward is Giroux with 15,569, all while playing heavy, defensive hockey.

I just think people should worry about the support players, rather than complaining about Kopitar making 10 million instead of 9.5.

Exactly. This is why TO is trying to get rid of Zaitsev, Marleau and not Marner.

It's not the top guys, it's the middle class.

No one is disputing Kopitar’s value in a vacuum.

People are disputing Kopitar meaning more than **** all to this franchise as we trudge through a rebuild.

Kopitar’s career season saw him barely get us into the playoffs and then get swept. That’s how bad the Kings are right now.

So if Kopitar’s best amounts to that little, why is he on this team?

If he was 24 and we were slowly putting together a new core, yeah, he serves a future role here. But now? Eh.

Well for one thing, so those 20 year old kids don't get their heads bashed in like every Edmonton lottery pick. Mentor role, insulation, etc.

Don't have to agree, but there are a few legitimate reasons to not just jettison everyone over 23.

 

[BigKing]

Since Kopitar entered the league in '06-'07 he is 6th in the NHL in scoring. He is a season removed from a Selke winning, Hart finalist season. You do not find players like him very often.
I know that fans always want to blow the team up because draft picks are 'sexy'(remember that avatar thing from like '08?), but you are not likely to get anyone near the caliber of player that Kopitar is now.

I don't know why it is so hard for some to understand that keeping Kopitar is not the reason the team fell apart, it is the lack of complimentary pieces to help carry the load. During his Hart finalist season, everyone was talking about Hall was completely carrying the load for the Devs, when Kopitar actually had a very similar role in team scoring(92 points from 236 team goals) than Hall did(93 points from 237 team goals).

If you have a player that can produce in that fashion while also playing Selke winning defense and starting a vast majority of his shifts in the Dzone, you don't dump him over a million in AAV. Instead of just giving up on him because he is getting older, you find secondary pieces that can help alleviate the load. Since '09-'10 Kopitar leads forwards with 16,248 regular season minutes, the next closest forward is Giroux with 15,569, all while playing heavy, defensive hockey.

I just think people should worry about the support players, rather than complaining about Kopitar making 10 million instead of 9.5.

I think it is more the term + the money than just the money.

Every GM is going to re-sign 11 & 8, even if it is possibly the wrong move for where your franchise sits (core age, contracts, quality of pipeline etc.). The argument of "show me a GM who would do that on purpose" actually works in favor of the argument to move one since doing something the same way for years and not getting any results from it begs the question "Should we do something different here?"

It's true that the support players suck, but it is hard to get good ones when all of your money is already tied up and 1st/2nd round picks have been traded for years. The one move that Blake should have made when taking over was trade Carter--coming off his best season as a King--to free up that space and gather additional assets. It is pretty much the only old-guy-with-term he could have moved and received a good return on. Instead, they lost Carter for most of the season anyways and then he became the saddest player on the team to watch last season and now has no value without retention.

Again, that line of thinking will be met with "Nobody would trade Carter after the 2017 season". Well, I was told that Blake needed to be hired when he was because he was going to be this wunderkind of a GM with fresh thinking unlike the dinosaur he was replacing, yet he went ahead and acted just like Lombardi for 2018 and then acted worse than Lombardi by signing Kovalchuk. He could have jump-started a retool and moved closer to getting Kopitar better help but he just stuck with things like "any GM would have done".

I'm not going to crucify DL for re-signing Kopitar. He's a stud in even-number years and the Kings were coming off of a 100 point season when he signed. I'm not going to rag on Blake for the Doughty contract either. Teams always sign their awesome FAs and I would have never expected Blake to zag that much to every other GM's zig. That being said, if every GM does something every time, does that mean it is right? It is a fair question.

Hopefully we start to see a little bit of creativity out of him moving forward. I'm hoping there is a plan in place: a much better plan than the one Bluc apparently had of just riding this core out until the summer of 2020.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Exactly. This is why TO is trying to get rid of Zaitsev, Marleau and not Marner.

It's not the top guys, it's the middle class.





Well for one thing, so those 20 year old kids don't get their heads bashed in like every Edmonton lottery pick. Mentor role, insulation, etc.

Don't have to agree, but there are a few legitimate reasons to not just jettison everyone over 23.

Handzus, Calder, and co. provided good insulation back in 07/08, and they didn’t cost a huge chunk of the cap for many years.

I’m generally ambivalent toward Kopitar these days, so this is a hill I’ll concede. But I do think there are much better cap friendly ways to provide veteran support during a rebuild.

 

[tomd]

I think it is more the term + the money than just the money.

Every GM is going to re-sign 11 & 8, even if it is possibly the wrong move for where your franchise sits (core age, contracts, quality of pipeline etc.). The argument of "show me a GM who would do that on purpose" actually works in favor of the argument to move one since doing something the same way for years and not getting any results from it begs the question "Should we do something different here?"

It's true that the support players suck, but it is hard to get good ones when all of your money is already tied up and 1st/2nd round picks have been traded for years. The one move that Blake should have made when taking over was trade Carter--coming off his best season as a King--to free up that space and gather additional assets. It is pretty much the only old-guy-with-term he could have moved and received a good return on. Instead, they lost Carter for most of the season anyways and then he became the saddest player on the team to watch last season and now has no value without retention.

Again, that line of thinking will be met with "Nobody would trade Carter after the 2017 season". Well, I was told that Blake needed to be hired when he was because he was going to be this wunderkind of a GM with fresh thinking unlike the dinosaur he was replacing, yet he went ahead and acted just like Lombardi for 2018 and then acted worse than Lombardi by signing Kovalchuk. He could have jump-started a retool and moved closer to getting Kopitar better help but he just stuck with things like "any GM would have done".

I'm not going to crucify DL for re-signing Kopitar. He's a stud in even-number years and the Kings were coming off of a 100 point season when he signed. I'm not going to rag on Blake for the Doughty contract either. Teams always sign their awesome FAs and I would have never expected Blake to zag that much to every other GM's zig. That being said, if every GM does something every time, does that mean it is right? It is a fair question.

Hopefully we start to see a little bit of creativity out of him moving forward. I'm hoping there is a plan in place: a much better plan than the one Bluc apparently had of just riding this core out until the summer of 2020.

Just curious what happens in the summer of 2020?

 

[crassbonanza]

Just curious what happens in the summer of 2020?

Blake and Luc planned on letting the team compete for 2 more seasons(until 2020) and then begin dismantling the current core. They then had to expedite the plan when the team fell apart this season.

 

[tomd]

Blake and Luc planned on letting the team compete for 2 more seasons(until 2020) and then begin dismantling the current core. They then had to expedite the plan when the team fell apart this season.

Gotcha...of course Kopitar, Doughty, and Brown will remain long past that date.

 

[BigKing]

Gotcha...of course Kopitar, Doughty, and Brown will remain long past that date.

Yes. Luc said that last season's collapse expedited their plans by a season-and-a-half, meaning they took over prior to the 2018 season and figured they had three more years to ride the core out before making major changes.

Not sure if that means they thought they would be real contenders for only '18 and '19 with the 2020 season proving they needed to make changes or if they thought they had all three seasons and then would be ahead of the curve if they made changes prior to 2021, implying that would be the season where things fell apart.

Regardless, they were wrong. Also, Kovalchuk's contract runs past the date to make major changes. Had to give that 3rd year though to make Kovalchuk sign here. Always good to not stick to your guns after your Patches trade falls apart (thank God) and you get desperate.

That being said, would not surprise me if AEG had a "make the playoffs" mandate once Bluc stepped in. As former players, they had to have known the aging core wasn't good enough to be a real contender during those three years to come and they especially had to know that the prospect pool wasn't good enough. That's why you go ahead and give the extra year to a total question mark like Kovy.

tomD...I agree that AEG isn't happy to spend money on this team just to have them not be competitive but they've been paying the money--including to players and coaches not even here anymore--and have one playoff win to show for it over five years. I think they are willing to engage in a retool though as a little pain now will be a better path to sustained playoff appearances. At least, I think they believe that. Offering STHers a two-year price freeze really drives that point home for me. They have to kick up Doughty's money this year and they just okayed $6MM to a flop UFA signing last year that led to one of the worst seasons in history. There is no reason to double-down on this team at the moment from AEG's perspective. I mean, they might be paying Phaneuf to go away. More money applied to another mistake. Hard to believe they would allow Blake to go spend more money at the moment: I'd want to make sure all these assholes I'm paying a ton of money to that are going to be around for awhile can play like they are paid to do before I start opening my wallet again.

 

[tomd]

Yes. Luc said that last season's collapse expedited their plans by a season-and-a-half, meaning they took over prior to the 2018 season and figured they had three more years to ride the core out before making major changes.

Not sure if that means they thought they would be real contenders for only '18 and '19 with the 2020 season proving they needed to make changes or if they thought they had all three seasons and then would be ahead of the curve if they made changes prior to 2021, implying that would be the season where things fell apart.

Regardless, they were wrong. Also, Kovalchuk's contract runs past the date to make major changes. Had to give that 3rd year though to make Kovalchuk sign here. Always good to not stick to your guns after your Patches trade falls apart (thank God) and you get desperate.

That being said, would not surprise me if AEG had a "make the playoffs" mandate once Bluc stepped in. As former players, they had to have known the aging core wasn't good enough to be a real contender during those three years to come and they especially had to know that the prospect pool wasn't good enough. That's why you go ahead and give the extra year to a total question mark like Kovy.

tomD...I agree that AEG isn't happy to spend money on this team just to have them not be competitive but they've been paying the money--including to players and coaches not even here anymore--and have one playoff win to show for it over five years. I think they are willing to engage in a retool though as a little pain now will be a better path to sustained playoff appearances. At least, I think they believe that. Offering STHers a two-year price freeze really drives that point home for me. They have to kick up Doughty's money this year and they just okayed $6MM to a flop UFA signing last year that led to one of the worst seasons in history. There is no reason to double-down on this team at the moment from AEG's perspective. I mean, they might be paying Phaneuf to go away. More money applied to another mistake. Hard to believe they would allow Blake to go spend more money at the moment: I'd want to make sure all these *******s I'm paying a ton of money to that are going to be around for awhile can play like they are paid to do before I start opening my wallet again.

I don't disagree with you although you use the term "retool" when really you meant "rebuild". A retool would make an attempt to be competitive as early as 20-21 if not next year. Let's assume for sake of argument that the goal is now 20-21 to be "competitive" again (i.e. actually try to make the playoffs). What happens over the next 15 months to make that happen? Virtually none of their prospects will be ready to assume huge minutes by that time. So they're going to have to make trades and dip into the free agent market. My point is...why wait? They're just throwing away a year but for what? Now, if you tell me that they are looking at 24-25 to be competitive again then I would totally understand watching the current core whither away to nothing.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Handzus, Calder, and co. provided good insulation back in 07/08, and they didn’t cost a huge chunk of the cap for many years.

I’m generally ambivalent toward Kopitar these days, so this is a hill I’ll concede. But I do think there are much better cap friendly ways to provide veteran support during a rebuild.

They did, I agree. But who are those guys these days? Feels like 'just gud pros' are hard to come by, and they're typically overpaid anyway, since they're the middle class contracts that do cause problems. But if you can find them, sure, I'd concede right back to you as well. It doesn't need to be Kopitar, just a body. But in my eyes, not really a much better forward or dman to learn from than Kopitar or Doughty.

The only thing I would butt heads here over is the idea that cap space matters. As we continue to get younger we'll have cost-controlled guys on the roster. We might be closer to the floor than the ceiling in as few as 2-3 years. Feels like a lazy argument to think of a con. Kopitar's and Doughty's cap hits are practically irrelevant.

 

[BigKing]

I don't disagree with you although you use the term "retool" when really you meant "rebuild". A retool would make an attempt to be competitive as early as 20-21 if not next year. Let's assume for sake of argument that the goal is now 20-21 to be "competitive" again (i.e. actually try to make the playoffs). What happens over the next 15 months to make that happen? Virtually none of their prospects will be ready to assume huge minutes by that time. So they're going to have to make trades and dip into the free agent market. My point is...why wait? They're just throwing away a year but for what? Now, if you tell me that they are looking at 24-25 to be competitive again then I would totally understand watching the current core whither away to nothing.

Pretty sure they are looking at it like this:

2020 - tossed
2021 - black hole/challenge for playoff
2022 - playoffs

By 2022, you've got guys from the '17 draft that are 22-23 and the '18 that are 21-22 along with a #5OA that is 20-21. If that #5OA isn't a bust, I'm hoping he is ready for NHL action for 2022 after two years in Juniors or the NCAA. In today's game, you don't generally see impact prospects making their mark at 25. If we are just looking at more Forborts and LaDues from the current prospect pool, then just fold it up anyways. Vilardi is obviously a wild card that would help tremendously.

Based on current roster players, there is only ~$39MM on the cap for 2022. The only defenseman on the current roster under contract is Doughty. Kovy's deal is off the books. Dion's too. One year left of Carter. Sure, a lot can--and will--change between now and then but the point being is that they will have a lot of dry powder at that point in time if they don't get silly in the meantime. They will have a better handle on what these prospects can actually do and, praying to the lottery gods, will add even more 1st round picks in 2020 and 21. Signing UFAs has always been an issue here but Blake could have the ammo to trade for an established player through accumulating assets the next couple of seasons.

I know that leads us to "you can't count on prospects" which I lead the charge on around here when everyone just starts saying how great everyone is going to be. Unfortunately, that is what needs to be done and is actually the biggest reason why these years are now being "thrown away" because there has been no cavalry to come to the rescue. The past five years have basically been a giant waste so continuing to "go for it" achieved nothing so why not toss away a season if going for it will probably cost more than one lost season in the long run?

Anyways, this has been Blake's plan from the start: prospects. He just thought that these guys would be competitive for at least his first two-three years but, instead, it was only one. The only rumored deal involving a prospect or a high pick was for Patches who he must have thought he was buying low on and would still be worth his cap hit as he approached his mid-30s due to his shot. If they planned on major changes prior to the 2021 season, that means they are expecting guys on ELCs to be contributing. That is still the plan. Gave the new coach a five year deal. Great job security for him and, really, for Blake as well. Ownership isn't going to let you hand out a five year deal to a coach if you are on the hot seat: Blake doesn't have to put a playoff team out there. If anything, I think missing out on Hughes/Kakko this year just makes them want to get a Top 2 pick even more for next season. That will be difficult with bounce-back seasons from certain guys but that defense is pretty rough as it currently stands and I think Blake will rely on that for the chance at another high pick. He'll also be on the lookout for additional picks and prospects that fit a certain age range when it comes to flipping Toffoli and Martinez, with the latter maybe being a 2021 TDL move.

The current core is already withered for the most part. At the start of the 2022 season, Kopitar will have three years left at $10MM and Doughty will have six at $11MM. Those two better not be withered by then. At present though, nobody is lining up to take the Kings bad contracts off of their hands unless they added significant futures. They can't add legit current players without paying a lot of money, space they won't have as long as these bad contracts are here. After Lombardi's gutting of the pipeline, they can't afford to do that to try and chase the ghosts of 2012-14.

I have an ex from the early 2000s that was just built ridiculously but has since let herself go. I still think about her from time-to-time even though she isn't close to as good as 18 years ago because I'm still blown away by how amazing it was back then. Then I remember she's fat, but like, I'm still attracted? That's the core of this team now. Best sex we've ever had: now they are fat and ugly but we still think they could pull a good look off if they just had the right outfit and makeup and there are still one or two things that are working for them. It's going to take more than a new dress and a good haircut for this team and, even then, that would still be a temporary improvement.

 

[tomd]

Pretty sure they are looking at it like this:

2020 - tossed
2021 - black hole/challenge for playoff
2022 - playoffs

By 2022, you've got guys from the '17 draft that are 22-23 and the '18 that are 21-22 along with a #5OA that is 20-21. If that #5OA isn't a bust, I'm hoping he is ready for NHL action for 2022 after two years in Juniors or the NCAA. In today's game, you don't generally see impact prospects making their mark at 25. If we are just looking at more Forborts and LaDues from the current prospect pool, then just fold it up anyways. Vilardi is obviously a wild card that would help tremendously.

Based on current roster players, there is only ~$39MM on the cap for 2022. The only defenseman on the current roster under contract is Doughty. Kovy's deal is off the books. Dion's too. One year left of Carter. Sure, a lot can--and will--change between now and then but the point being is that they will have a lot of dry powder at that point in time if they don't get silly in the meantime. They will have a better handle on what these prospects can actually do and, praying to the lottery gods, will add even more 1st round picks in 2020 and 21. Signing UFAs has always been an issue here but Blake could have the ammo to trade for an established player through accumulating assets the next couple of seasons.

I know that leads us to "you can't count on prospects" which I lead the charge on around here when everyone just starts saying how great everyone is going to be. Unfortunately, that is what needs to be done and is actually the biggest reason why these years are now being "thrown away" because there has been no cavalry to come to the rescue. The past five years have basically been a giant waste so continuing to "go for it" achieved nothing so why not toss away a season if going for it will probably cost more than one lost season in the long run?

Anyways, this has been Blake's plan from the start: prospects. He just thought that these guys would be competitive for at least his first two-three years but, instead, it was only one. The only rumored deal involving a prospect or a high pick was for Patches who he must have thought he was buying low on and would still be worth his cap hit as he approached his mid-30s due to his shot. If they planned on major changes prior to the 2021 season, that means they are expecting guys on ELCs to be contributing. That is still the plan. Gave the new coach a five year deal. Great job security for him and, really, for Blake as well. Ownership isn't going to let you hand out a five year deal to a coach if you are on the hot seat: Blake doesn't have to put a playoff team out there. If anything, I think missing out on Hughes/Kakko this year just makes them want to get a Top 2 pick even more for next season. That will be difficult with bounce-back seasons from certain guys but that defense is pretty rough as it currently stands and I think Blake will rely on that for the chance at another high pick. He'll also be on the lookout for additional picks and prospects that fit a certain age range when it comes to flipping Toffoli and Martinez, with the latter maybe being a 2021 TDL move.

The current core is already withered for the most part. At the start of the 2022 season, Kopitar will have three years left at $10MM and Doughty will have six at $11MM. Those two better not be withered by then. At present though, nobody is lining up to take the Kings bad contracts off of their hands unless they added significant futures. They can't add legit current players without paying a lot of money, space they won't have as long as these bad contracts are here. After Lombardi's gutting of the pipeline, they can't afford to do that to try and chase the ghosts of 2012-14.

I have an ex from the early 2000s that was just built ridiculously but has since let herself go. I still think about her from time-to-time even though she isn't close to as good as 18 years ago because I'm still blown away by how amazing it was back then. Then I remember she's fat, but like, I'm still attracted? That's the core of this team now. Best sex we've ever had: now they are fat and ugly but we still think they could pull a good look off if they just had the right outfit and makeup and there are still one or two things that are working for them. It's going to take more than a new dress and a good haircut for this team and, even then, that would still be a temporary improvement.

Don't agree with everything you said but respect your position. So, in the short term does Blake fill two cavern sized holes...getting a legitimate 2c and another veteran D who can play top 4 minutes? Or do he just let the current team go the way of your ex?

 

[BigKing]

Don't agree with everything you said but respect your position. So, in the short term does Blake fill two cavern sized holes...getting a legitimate 2c and another veteran D who can play top 4 minutes? Or do he just let the current team go the way of your ex?

They are already there. Hence not getting the dress and makeup. Need to hit the gym and change a poor diet. Stop drinking. Total lifestyle change. Takes more time but is better in the long run.

 

[johnjm22]

They did, I agree. But who are those guys these days? Feels like 'just gud pros' are hard to come by, and they're typically overpaid anyway, since they're the middle class contracts that do cause problems. But if you can find them, sure, I'd concede right back to you as well. It doesn't need to be Kopitar, just a body. But in my eyes, not really a much better forward or dman to learn from than Kopitar or Doughty.

Adjusted for cap inflation, Handzus's cap hit today would be 6.6M. So that's only 3.4M in cap space savings over Kopitar.

Nevermind the fact that Handzus was coming off a possible career-ending injury, and there were questions as to whether he'd ever recover fully, otherwise he would have been even more expensive.

Like you said who's the Handzus-equivalent today that we can sign? Whoever it is they wouldn't even want to come if here if we're doing a blow-it-up rebuild. Handzus only signed because we were the only team willing to take the risk of giving him a big contract.

Also, Handzus wasn't really insulating any young players. Kopitar was already the 1st line center when he got here.

 

[tomd]

They are already there. Hence not getting the dress and makeup. Need to hit the gym and change a poor diet. Stop drinking. Total lifestyle change. Takes more time but is better in the long run.

We'll see. My personal feeling is that almost every player on the team is going to be better this coming year with a new coach and renewed commitment. If Blake just adds the couple of pieces that I mentioned (legitimate 2c and a veteran #4-5 D) the team will likely be in the 85-90 point range.

I don't think Blake doing nothing at all to help the team is a realistic option. TM didn't come here to oversee the easing of Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, and Quick into retirement. Nor did he come here with the intention of insuring a top 3 pick each year. Getting younger is imperative but the 18 year-olds being drafted this year and next are REPLACEMENTS for Kopitar, Brown, and Doughty...not additions. By the time those kids are ready to play full-time roles in the NHL, the current core will be well past their prime. In that sense, Blake, Luc, and AEG must realize that they can't waste the remaining years of the existing core.

So yes, by all means continue to draft well and build the prospect pool but this team desperately needs to add some top talent in the 23-28 year old range as well. That can only come from trades and free agency.

 

[KINGS17]

We'll see. My personal feeling is that almost every player on the team is going to be better this coming year with a new coach and renewed commitment. If Blake just adds the couple of pieces that I mentioned (legitimate 2c and a veteran #4-5 D) the team will likely be in the 85-90 point range.

I don't think Blake doing nothing at all to help the team is a realistic option. TM didn't come here to oversee the easing of Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, and Quick into retirement. Nor did he come here with the intention of insuring a top 3 pick each year. Getting younger is imperative but the 18 year-olds being drafted this year and next are REPLACEMENTS for Kopitar, Brown, and Doughty...not additions. By the time those kids are ready to play full-time roles in the NHL, the current core will be well past their prime. In that sense, Blake, Luc, and AEG must realize that they can't waste the remaining years of the existing core.

So yes, by all means continue to draft well and build the prospect pool but this team desperately needs to add some top talent in the 23-28 year old range as well. That can only come from trades and free agency.

You consider 85-90 points in the upcoming season to be a success? I don't, that is black hole territory.

I don't expect the addition of a legit 2C. That responsibility is going to be on Carter's shoulders. There is no help coming in that department, unless the Russian kid Porky shocks us all.

I think Todd McLellan is here to teach a structured system to the Kings that will be used in Ontario. There will be some discipline instilled at least in that regard. I have no idea what Blake's plan is, but reading the tea leaves, I don't expect Martinez and possibly Quick to be on the roster by the end of next season. Maybe we will get some hints if there are some moves made at the draft. Dustin Brown is only able to make a list of seven teams to which he would not accept a trade. With only two years left on his deal after this season at a cap hit of $5.9M, is he becoming an attractive asset for a contending team if the Kings retain $2M of his cap hit? Definitely something Blake should think about.

Blake should not be adding to help this core group of players, he should be subtracting to further handicap them.

The original argument for signing all of these guys, especially Kopitar, was that the Kings were in their championship window, and that everyone would accept the last few years of his contract being years of decline for him and the Kings. Hmmm, now the Kings have to hurry up and get better so they can be a playoff team in the last three years of his deal?

I wonder what the over/under should be on the number of Kings playoff wins over the remainder of the Kopitar contract.

 

[tomd]

You consider 85-90 points in the upcoming season to be a success? I don't, that is black hole territory.

I don't expect the addition of a legit 2C. That responsibility is going to be on Carter's shoulders. There is no help coming in that department, unless the Russian kid Porky shocks us all.

I think Todd McLellan is here to teach a structured system to the Kings that will be used in Ontario. There will be some discipline instilled at least in that regard. I have no idea what Blake's plan is, but reading the tea leaves, I don't expect Martinez and possibly Quick to be on the roster by the end of next season. Maybe we will get some hints if there are some moves made at the draft. Dustin Brown is only able to make a list of seven teams to which he would not accept a trade. With only two years left on his deal after this season at a cap hit of $5.9M, is he becoming an attractive asset for a contending team if the Kings retain $2M of his cap hit? Definitely something Blake should think about.

Blake should not be adding to help this core group of players, he should be subtracting to further handicap them.

The original argument for signing all of these guys, especially Kopitar, was that the Kings were in their championship window, and that everyone would accept the last few years of his contract being years of decline for him and the Kings. Hmmm, now the Kings have to hurry up and get better so they can be a playoff team in the last three years of his deal?

I wonder what the over/under should be on the number of Kings playoff wins over the remainder of the Kopitar contract.

We clearly represent opposite sides of the spectrum but I'm enjoying the discussion. If I'm management with a business to run, I'll take 85-90 points instead of 72 points every time. What did a 72 point season get the Kings? Hughes? no. Kakko? no. The #5 pick could well turn out to be no better than the #10 pick in this year's draft. Going into next year with that same expectation is just a very poor business plan.

TM was not hired to put a structured system into Ontario. He was hired to bring accountability and effort back into LA. And not into the 17 and 18 year-olds. Into the grown men who are making millions on the current roster.

In all likelihood, Brown, Kopitar, and Doughty are Kings for life. Of Brown there is no doubt. Quick...we'll see. I don't think there is much of a market for him but we'll see how free agency works out for a few other teams and what that looks like.

Your line of thinking makes sense if you are the Ottawa Senators and have Melnyk as the owner. Your attitude is also that of a Kings fan back in the post Gretzky years or the early 80s. That of a loser (I don't say that pejoratively...it is the mindset of having a team that's never won anything). Well, the Kings won 2 Stanley Cups...they should be a proud organization that doesn't accept a losing record or a losing culture. You are advocating both.

Finally, you're putting to much onus on the draft as the way to rebuild this franchise. If they had gotten Hughes or Kakko that might have made sense. Whoever they get at #5 is going to be a big question mark...will they be great or just good? Next year's pick could be anywhere from #1 to whatever. Are you willing to throw away another entire season just to see how the lottery balls turn out? This team needs a middle layer of players in the 23-28 year old range. That can't wait. Otherwise, I see a black hole team for the next decade. Why not try to get better now as well as younger for the future? It is possible.