Around Hockey XIII (All Non-Jackets Hockey talk in here)

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Mayor Bee

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Dec 29, 2008
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Vancouver appears to be in more-or-less open rebellion against Tortorella, with the Lack start in the outdoor game being the final straw.

This is why you don't take a petty high-strung coach and throw him into a veteran team. The likelihood of a player uprising is way too high, and there's almost no real precedent for it ever working with success. A coach like this can succeed if the core players are young enough or inexperienced enough, but if they've been in the league a few years...
 

CrazyCanucks

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Jun 8, 2005
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Vancouver appears to be in more-or-less open rebellion against Tortorella, with the Lack start in the outdoor game being the final straw.

This is why you don't take a petty high-strung coach and throw him into a veteran team. The likelihood of a player uprising is way too high, and there's almost no real precedent for it ever working with success. A coach like this can succeed if the core players are young enough or inexperienced enough, but if they've been in the league a few years...

Gillis is the real vitrol of the fans of Vancouver, not torts as he hasnt been here long enough. Its the GM
 

Nanabijou

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Dec 22, 2009
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Tough to figure out who to cheer for in the Tor-NYR and Phi-Was games tonight. Dislike all the teams (Washington, less so), so that confounds the issue.

Guess we just hope for no 3-point games.
 

pete goegan

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Tough to figure out who to cheer for in the Tor-NYR and Phi-Was games tonight. Dislike all the teams (Washington, less so), so that confounds the issue.

Guess we just hope for no 3-point games.

I was struggling with that, too. I guess that I'll pull for the Caps. With a win, they jump us and tie the Flyers, but we can move ahead of both with a win over the hated Hawks on Thursday. I'll like that!
 

Mayor Bee

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Gillis is the real vitrol of the fans of Vancouver, not torts as he hasnt been here long enough. Its the GM

The vitriol toward Gillis from the fans is absolutely justified. In the span of less than 12 months, he took a closing window of a contending team and slammed it shut, then burned the building down.

I was looking more at the players toward Tortorella. I had this to say about a different scenario some months ago:
Reds fans may remember the short tenure of a manager named Vern Rapp, which was less of a disaster than Rapp's tenure in St. Louis.

Here's the quick version. Rapp was a very successful minor league manager, and St. Louis had a reputation as a talented but soft team that tended to underachieve. Basically the entire team was under age 30, except for Lou Brock (still starting in the outfield at 37). It was thought that they needed discipline and accountability, and no one knew that better than whichever of the Busch family actively participated in the hiring process. Who better than Rapp, who's the one who slammed his fist down and raised hell about discipline and accountability?

Rapp's idea of what constituted poor discipline:
- Lou Brock, the unquestioned leader of the team, let his sideburns get a little bit thick. They had to go.
- Al Hrabosky, one of the best closers in the league, had bushy hair and a mustache as well as a series of gyrations that led to him being branded "The Mad Hungarian". This was a constant source of tension, and finally Hrabosky was ordered to look, dress, and act more like a West Point cadet. After months of haranguing, he quietly requested a trade, which was promptly made public by Rapp and Busch.
- Ted Simmons, one of the best catchers in the league and one of the 10 best of all-time, had several interests outside of baseball connected to charity and the community. Rapp felt this was a sign of lack of commitment, and routinely hounded Simmons for it.
- Keith Hernandez had a mustache. That was an issue.
- Oddly enough, the only player who truly lacked discipline was Garry ("If I ain't startin', I ain't departin'.") Templeton, and Rapp got no more out of him than any ensuing manager ever would.

As you can see, none of this has anything to do with discipline or accountability. It's nothing but petty crap that's normally an issue only for the neurotic control freaks who are able to have success in the minors and then flame out in the majors. High school coaches can do it, college coaches can do it, and it never works above that level.

Rapp lasted barely a year. In 1977 (his full season), there had been a meeting that was supposed to clear the air. Rapp turned it into an all-out attack on the players, then announced that he would refuse to change or bend on petty things when Lou Brock said that it would help alleviate the tension. After a win in April 1978, Ted Simmons put on some music in the clubhouse, with Rapp angrily turning it off and yelling at Simmons that he was "a (expletive) loser". Jack Buck (who was standing right there) asked if Rapp meant that, which he affirmed. Buck went on the air and told the listening audience that Rapp had called Simmons a loser, and Rapp was canned the next day.

The parallels are interesting. The Cardinals were thought to be a highly-skilled team that should have won a World Series by then, but they lacked "heart" and "discipline" and "accountability". They hired Rapp (a martinet) to replace Red Schoendienst, who was low-key and fairly quiet. It was thought that he would be able to extract that last little bit from a good team and turn them into champions. Instead, his grating and abrasive style wore the team out in short order. He picked fights with veteran players, with rookies, with bottom-of-the-roster guys. And these weren't over major things at all, it was just petty.

Someone like this can work with a roster full of young players who are in dire need of guidance. With a veteran core, they're going to revolt. The Cardinals did against Rapp, but at a cost. Rapp couldn't co-exist with some major players, so trades were made that damaged the team because of the idea that firing the manager would simply reinforce the bad habits of the team. This is like what happened with Ottawa and Cory Clouston; by the time the front office figured out he was a bozo, core players had already been moved.

Guys like Tortorella generally have a short shelf life because they burn everyone out. He had success in Tampa because the key players were young and had to buy in, and the veterans were at the end of their careers and could endure it. But as the young core got older, they burned out. He's destined to fail in Vancouver because it's already a veteran group, and the entire team would need to be gutted in order to get players who he won't be able to harangue out of town.
 

Samkow

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Jul 4, 2002
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Despite Hemsky clearly being worth Johansen, Edmonton gives him away for a 3rd and a 5th round pick.
 

Iron Balls McGinty

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Tme to start keeping an eye on Tampa in relation to the wild card race. CBJ 4 points behind them now that they've fallen out of th top 3 in the Atlantic.

They are 3-7 in the last 10. They get Stamkos back now but lost their only other scoring threat and replaced it with Callahan who will score no where near what they lost with St. Louis. While Stamkos is great, he's going to be rusty for a few games and isn't the playmaker that St. Louis was.

Combine that with Detroit losing Datsyuk for 3 weeks and Zetterberg being out. I see the wildcard race getting a lot more interesting.
 

FANonymous

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Tme to start keeping an eye on Tampa in relation to the wild card race. CBJ 4 points behind them now that they've fallen out of th top 3 in the Atlantic.

They are 3-7 in the last 10. They get Stamkos back now but lost their only other scoring threat and replaced it with Callahan who will score no where near what they lost with St. Louis. While Stamkos is great, he's going to be rusty for a few games and isn't the playmaker that St. Louis was.

Combine that with Detroit losing Datsyuk for 3 weeks and Zetterberg being out. I see the wildcard race getting a lot more interesting.

Washington and Philadelphia each have 3 games against top opponents in the next 5 and both Washington and Toronto have the dreaded California trip coming up. Things could get very interesting within the next week or so. Philadelphia has a particularly brutal month with Pitt [x2], Chicago, St Louis, LA, Boston.

I think New Jersey is going to start jumping over some teams. They've been playing well. Much better than I thought they would at the beginning of the season [though I was honestly just hoping to land Jagr in a CBJ jersey]. Their March schedule has mostly wildcard contenders with some of the weaker teams sprinkled throughout.
 
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