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Confirmed with Link: [ARI/TOR] Conor Timmins to Toronto for Curtis Douglas

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Fogelhund said:
If you really think Marchment, and Douglas are comparables, you need to reevaluate how you judge prospects. Marchment was a mistake moving, even at the time I didn't like it, even though his progress wasn't great. Douglas won't even get a NHL contract again. This isn't even close. You actually have to watch, and not stats watch. You'll also end up regretting calling Timmins a relatively soft NHL player.
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1. Muzzin
2. Benn
3. Liljegren
4. Sandin
5. Rielly
6. Giordano
7. Holl
8. Hollowell
9. Timmins
10. Kral
11. Mete

Based on the numbers (FM's + hits) combined with the eye test I would rank him as the 9th most physical defenseman on the team this year.

I don't believe for a second that after producing in a stint with the Senators and then doing what he did in his first year in Toronto that he won't get another contract. Heavyweights aren't supposed to score at that pace. If he is really a 2 points per 18 games player he will probably get an AHL contract to be a someone's designated scrapper. But, I imagine over the course of the next couple years he will find his game again and play his way into another contract at the very least. If he can climb Tuscon's lineup and produce like Joshua was able to do with St. Louis' farm team post trade he will get a chance at the NHL level. If Douglas could score 15-25 points in a 4th line role he would make the NHL even in a depth role like Joshua did as an enforcer. He doesn't have to do exactly what Marchment did. But, even then his production for his role and considering his other attributes I could see him play up the lineup with opportunity and make this look bad in a couple years.
 
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Magic Man said:
1. Muzzin
2. Benn
3. Liljegren
4. Sandin
5. Rielly
6. Giordano
7. Holl
8. Hollowell
9. Timmins
10. Kral
11. Mete

Based on the numbers (FM's + hits) combined with the eye test I would rank him as the 9th most physical defenseman on the team this year.

I don't believe for a second that after producing in a stint with the Senators and then doing what he did in his first year in Toronto that he won't get another contract. Heavyweights aren't supposed to score at that pace. If he is really a 2 points per 18 games player he will probably get an AHL contract to be a someone's designated scrapper. But, I imagine over the course of the next couple years he will find his game again and play his way into another contract at the very least. If he can climb Tuscon's lineup and produce like Joshua was able to do with St. Louis' farm team post trade he will get a chance at the NHL level. If Douglas could score 15-25 points in a 4th line role he would make the NHL even in a depth role like Joshua did as an enforcer. He doesn't have to do exactly what Marchment did. But, even then his production for his role and considering his other attributes I could see him play up the lineup with opportunity and make this look bad in a couple years.
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You have completely lost the plot on this one. You need to go reevaluate how you form your opinions and try again next time because this one is a rough look for you.
 
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Magic Man said:
Marchment and Joshua were good prospects. Marchment went on to play 6 games in Florida's farm system before playing the next two seasons in the NHL. Joshua had a poor first year where he was developing? I guess and the next season he saw a bulk of NHL games and now he is full time. Within 2 seasons of trading Joshua he was in the NHL, but he wasn't even worth an ELC in Toronto,. Most of the players don't make it. He did but wasn't good enough for an ELC here. That's just poor scouting.

It made no sense not to like Marchment for Malgin for a lot of people as well. I'm guessing they have changed their tune.

I prejudged the deal because it fell in the line with how Dubas opperates. It was the final straw for me. I tried to support him through the Kadri trade and all the others. But, I simply don't like the way he assembles a hockey team. Even if Douglas doesn't make the NHL I no longer support his thought process of team assembly. He undervalues physicality and I like physical hockey. I don't like seeing our home grown Clarks and Tuckers shipped off for the softest players on other teams (Kerfoot+Barrie) and (Malgin).
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Joshua is only now playing his first full NHL season. We traded him, he spent the year in the AHL, the next year got 12 NHL games (only played 18 games of hockey the whole season though). He hasn't even played a season's worth of games and last year was primarily an AHLer in regular season and playoff time. He's having on OK season on a team having a terrible year that's looking to sell core players.


In summary, so far you've been wrong about this trade but you're doubling down because of the Kadri and Marchment deals, which have nothing to do with this trade. Sounds like you're only capable of judging things based on your preconceptions, and not able to actively analyze things after the fact in an objective way. Not liking it at first is one thing, it's the doubling down I think people are mocking you for. Some people just can't admit when they've been even briefly wrong lmao.
 
Magic Man said:
Marchment and Joshua were good prospects.
Click to expand...
None of these guys you've mentioned were "good prospects". They were mediocre AHLers in their mid-20s, with the boom potential of a bottom-six player, and next-to-no chance of doing anything significant in the NHL. All continued on the exact same development path once leaving, and while Marchment ended up being the one-in-a-million that ended up putting things together enough super late to be a mediocre middle-six player, he only did so years later after hitting UFA status, and neither of the others have done anything of note, and likely never will.
Magic Man said:
I prejudged the deal because it fell in the line with how Dubas opperates.
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You seem to have no idea how Dubas operates.
 
Magic Man said:
1. Muzzin
2. Benn
3. Liljegren
4. Sandin
5. Rielly
6. Giordano
7. Holl
8. Hollowell
9. Timmins
10. Kral
11. Mete

Based on the numbers (FM's + hits) combined with the eye test I would rank him as the 9th most physical defenseman on the team this year.

I don't believe for a second that after producing in a stint with the Senators and then doing what he did in his first year in Toronto that he won't get another contract. Heavyweights aren't supposed to score at that pace. If he is really a 2 points per 18 games player he will probably get an AHL contract to be a someone's designated scrapper. But, I imagine over the course of the next couple years he will find his game again and play his way into another contract at the very least. If he can climb Tuscon's lineup and produce like Joshua was able to do with St. Louis' farm team post trade he will get a chance at the NHL level. If Douglas could score 15-25 points in a 4th line role he would make the NHL even in a depth role like Joshua did as an enforcer. He doesn't have to do exactly what Marchment did. But, even then his production for his role and considering his other attributes I could see him play up the lineup with opportunity and make this look bad in a couple years.
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Fighting majors, as a methodology to rank most physical defenseman?

:laugh:

Is this serious?

FWIW.. Timmins has more hits per 60 than Rielly, Giordano, Hollowell, Holl.... who you've ranked ahead of him on your list. He's not settled into his role yet, and he's playing conservative. Hitting has very much been part of his game, but it doesn't make sense to go out of your way, when you are trying to establish yourself. Play safe, within yourself, don't take yourself out of the play... learn quiet defense first. Once that becomes second nature, feel free to flatten some people.

""

I wish I could find the video, where he flattened someone entering the zone.

Joshua? Are you talking about Leivo? WTF does Leivo have to do with anything? He's your textbook AAAA player... really good at the AHL level, barely NHL quality. 29 years old, and nothing more than a journeyman.

You keep mentioning Douglas, and "Producing like Leivo did with the farm team". This can't be serious can it? Leivo can skate... Douglas... his straight line speed was ok last year... it seems to have gone away this year, and his first few steps and edgework aren't good. You keep comparing him to Leivo, and Marchment, two guys who can skate, while he can't. If you can see Douglas working his way up the lineup, return your crystal ball for a refund.



Maybe get on the trade for Luke Schenn bandwagon.. he's leading the NHL D men, with FOUR fighting majors this year. That four fighting majors, is more than the number of games Douglas will ever play in the NHL. Personally, I'd sign him as a depth UFA next year, but I'm not trading a 2nd + prospect for him now.
 
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Fogelhund said:
Fighting majors, as a methodology to rank most physical defenseman?

:laugh:

Is this serious?

FWIW.. Timmins has more hits per 60 than Rielly, Giordano, Hollowell, Holl.... who you've ranked ahead of him on your list. He's not settled into his role yet, and he's playing conservative. Hitting has very much been part of his game, but it doesn't make sense to go out of your way, when you are trying to establish yourself. Play safe, within yourself, don't take yourself out of the play... learn quiet defense first. Once that becomes second nature, feel free to flatten some people.

""

I wish I could find the video, where he flattened someone entering the zone.

Joshua? Are you talking about Leivo? WTF does Leivo have to do with anything? He's your textbook AAAA player... really good at the AHL level, barely NHL quality. 29 years old, and nothing more than a journeyman.

You keep mentioning Douglas, and "Producing like Leivo did with the farm team". This can't be serious can it? Leivo can skate... Douglas... his straight line speed was ok last year... it seems to have gone away this year, and his first few steps and edgework aren't good. You keep comparing him to Leivo, and Marchment, two guys who can skate, while he can't. If you can see Douglas working his way up the lineup, return your crystal ball for a refund.



Maybe get on the trade for Luke Schenn bandwagon.. he's leading the NHL D men, with FOUR fighting majors this year. That four fighting majors, is more than the number of games Douglas will ever play in the NHL. Personally, I'd sign him as a depth UFA next year, but I'm not trading a 2nd + prospect for him now.
Click to expand...


He’s talking about Dakota Joshua
 
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Magic Man said:
1. Muzzin
2. Benn
3. Liljegren
4. Sandin
5. Rielly
6. Giordano
7. Holl
8. Hollowell
9. Timmins
10. Kral
11. Mete

Based on the numbers (FM's + hits) combined with the eye test I would rank him as the 9th most physical defenseman on the team this year.

I don't believe for a second that after producing in a stint with the Senators and then doing what he did in his first year in Toronto that he won't get another contract. Heavyweights aren't supposed to score at that pace. If he is really a 2 points per 18 games player he will probably get an AHL contract to be a someone's designated scrapper. But, I imagine over the course of the next couple years he will find his game again and play his way into another contract at the very least. If he can climb Tuscon's lineup and produce like Joshua was able to do with St. Louis' farm team post trade he will get a chance at the NHL level. If Douglas could score 15-25 points in a 4th line role he would make the NHL even in a depth role like Joshua did as an enforcer. He doesn't have to do exactly what Marchment did. But, even then his production for his role and considering his other attributes I could see him play up the lineup with opportunity and make this look bad in a couple years.
Click to expand...

I mean even in this best case scenario he seems as if he tops out as a lesser player than Kampf.... Not exactly something that sounds like we'll lament too much.
 
BertCorbeau said:
He’s talking about Dakota Joshua
Click to expand...
Thanks. Yes, he referenced St Louis, so I thought he meant this year, not thinking to go back last year. So he’s crowing about Dakota Joshua? The guy who wouldn’t sign here? I mean that was what was reported, couldn’t come to terms with Leafs, so traded to Blues, where he signed the standard ELC deal.
 
The biggest travesty will be that this guy has to sit once Rielly is back. It's not fair but you can't really make a case to sit any of Gio, Sandin, Brodie, Liljegren or even Holl. Long term Timmins should replace Holl but Holl has been excellent with hard assignments in the absence of Rielly, Muzzin and Brodie so it's not fair to sit him either. Good problem to have though! Someone will inevitably get injured again.
 
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When Rielly gets back, I would like to see a Rielly-Timmins pairing on the 3rd pairing for a game or two to ease Rielly back.

Watching Timmins play, his style looks like it would compliment Rielly’s style.
 
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Magic Man said:
1. Muzzin
2. Benn
3. Liljegren
4. Sandin
5. Rielly
6. Giordano
7. Holl
8. Hollowell
9. Timmins
10. Kral
11. Mete

Based on the numbers (FM's + hits) combined with the eye test I would rank him as the 9th most physical defenseman on the team this year.

I don't believe for a second that after producing in a stint with the Senators and then doing what he did in his first year in Toronto that he won't get another contract. Heavyweights aren't supposed to score at that pace. If he is really a 2 points per 18 games player he will probably get an AHL contract to be a someone's designated scrapper. But, I imagine over the course of the next couple years he will find his game again and play his way into another contract at the very least. If he can climb Tuscon's lineup and produce like Joshua was able to do with St. Louis' farm team post trade he will get a chance at the NHL level. If Douglas could score 15-25 points in a 4th line role he would make the NHL even in a depth role like Joshua did as an enforcer. He doesn't have to do exactly what Marchment did. But, even then his production for his role and considering his other attributes I could see him play up the lineup with opportunity and make this look bad in a couple years.
Click to expand...
So you think we should have kept Douglas hoping that he ends up being a similar case to Joshua and put up 4th line numbers and have a few fights years later over a guy who is a big RHD who moves the puck well, is currently a ppg player, steady defensive presence, looking like he could be top 4 dman (when healthy) and is contributing to our success right now for cheap?
 
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Magic Man said:
1. Muzzin
2. Benn
3. Liljegren
4. Sandin
5. Rielly
6. Giordano
7. Holl
8. Hollowell
9. Timmins
10. Kral
11. Mete

Based on the numbers (FM's + hits) combined with the eye test I would rank him as the 9th most physical defenseman on the team this year.

I don't believe for a second that after producing in a stint with the Senators and then doing what he did in his first year in Toronto that he won't get another contract. Heavyweights aren't supposed to score at that pace. If he is really a 2 points per 18 games player he will probably get an AHL contract to be a someone's designated scrapper. But, I imagine over the course of the next couple years he will find his game again and play his way into another contract at the very least. If he can climb Tuscon's lineup and produce like Joshua was able to do with St. Louis' farm team post trade he will get a chance at the NHL level. If Douglas could score 15-25 points in a 4th line role he would make the NHL even in a depth role like Joshua did as an enforcer. He doesn't have to do exactly what Marchment did. But, even then his production for his role and considering his other attributes I could see him play up the lineup with opportunity and make this look bad in a couple years.
Click to expand...
Wow....stumps are calling, asking for people not to be lumped in with them.
 
Magic Man said:
1. Muzzin
2. Benn
3. Liljegren
4. Sandin
5. Rielly
6. Giordano
7. Holl
8. Hollowell
9. Timmins
10. Kral
11. Mete

Based on the numbers (FM's + hits) combined with the eye test I would rank him as the 9th most physical defenseman on the team this year.

I don't believe for a second that after producing in a stint with the Senators and then doing what he did in his first year in Toronto that he won't get another contract. Heavyweights aren't supposed to score at that pace. If he is really a 2 points per 18 games player he will probably get an AHL contract to be a someone's designated scrapper. But, I imagine over the course of the next couple years he will find his game again and play his way into another contract at the very least. If he can climb Tuscon's lineup and produce like Joshua was able to do with St. Louis' farm team post trade he will get a chance at the NHL level. If Douglas could score 15-25 points in a 4th line role he would make the NHL even in a depth role like Joshua did as an enforcer. He doesn't have to do exactly what Marchment did. But, even then his production for his role and considering his other attributes I could see him play up the lineup with opportunity and make this look bad in a couple years.
Click to expand...
Combined with the eye test? That's a classic.
 
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Magic Man said:
1. Muzzin
2. Benn
3. Liljegren
4. Sandin
5. Rielly
6. Giordano
7. Holl
8. Hollowell
9. Timmins
10. Kral
11. Mete

Based on the numbers (FM's + hits) combined with the eye test I would rank him as the 9th most physical defenseman on the team this year.

I don't believe for a second that after producing in a stint with the Senators and then doing what he did in his first year in Toronto that he won't get another contract. Heavyweights aren't supposed to score at that pace. If he is really a 2 points per 18 games player he will probably get an AHL contract to be a someone's designated scrapper. But, I imagine over the course of the next couple years he will find his game again and play his way into another contract at the very least. If he can climb Tuscon's lineup and produce like Joshua was able to do with St. Louis' farm team post trade he will get a chance at the NHL level. If Douglas could score 15-25 points in a 4th line role he would make the NHL even in a depth role like Joshua did as an enforcer. He doesn't have to do exactly what Marchment did. But, even then his production for his role and considering his other attributes I could see him play up the lineup with opportunity and make this look bad in a couple years.
Click to expand...
If if if and another if that means even you're not convinced in what you're saying.
 
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Magic Man said:
1. Muzzin
2. Benn
3. Liljegren
4. Sandin
5. Rielly
6. Giordano
7. Holl
8. Hollowell
9. Timmins
10. Kral
11. Mete

Based on the numbers (FM's + hits) combined with the eye test I would rank him as the 9th most physical defenseman on the team this year.

I don't believe for a second that after producing in a stint with the Senators and then doing what he did in his first year in Toronto that he won't get another contract. Heavyweights aren't supposed to score at that pace. If he is really a 2 points per 18 games player he will probably get an AHL contract to be a someone's designated scrapper. But, I imagine over the course of the next couple years he will find his game again and play his way into another contract at the very least. If he can climb Tuscon's lineup and produce like Joshua was able to do with St. Louis' farm team post trade he will get a chance at the NHL level. If Douglas could score 15-25 points in a 4th line role he would make the NHL even in a depth role like Joshua did as an enforcer. He doesn't have to do exactly what Marchment did. But, even then his production for his role and considering his other attributes I could see him play up the lineup with opportunity and make this look bad in a couple years.
Click to expand...

You have him physically behind Hollowell? Like 5'8 170 pound Hollowell, we're talking about the same guy right?

Also 25 points would put Douglas ahead of the majority of "elite" fourth liners like Clutterbuck or Cizikas that play borderline 3rd line minutes and get paid on long term 2.5 million dollar deals. This would be the equivalent of winning the lottery for Douglas as well as giving us no more than 1 year of it on his ELC before someone else pays him that in UFA.
 
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Martin Skoula said:
You have him physically behind Hollowell? Like 5'8 170 pound Hollowell, we're talking about the same guy right?

Also 25 points would put Douglas ahead of the majority of "elite" fourth liners like Clutterbuck or Cizikas that play borderline 3rd line minutes and get paid on long term 2.5 million dollar deals. This would be the equivalent of winning the lottery for Douglas as well as giving us no more than 1 year of it on his ELC before someone else pays him that in UFA.
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I know I've been heckled more than once for not watching the Marlies in this thread. But, I maintain that I've likely seen more of them then most people in this thread. Hollowell has an edge to his game, always has. I think he'd beat the shit out of Timmins.
 
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Magic Man said:
I know I've been heckled more than once for not watching the Marlies in this thread. But, I maintain that I've likely seen more of them than most people in this thread. Hollowell has an edge to his game, always has. I think he'd beat the shit out of Timmins.
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No disrespect to Hollowell, he’s looked good as well in is limited time with the leafs but:

Timmins has 6 hits in 5 games and is 6’2 202lbs

Hollowell has 3 hits in 6 games and is 5’9 175lbs

Timmins stood up Jamie Benn and other players at the blue line and has also contributed 5 points in 5 games.

I get the sense if Timmins turns into an all star you’re still going to hate him no matter what.
 
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