Are Matthews and Tavares Franchise #1 C's

[JadedLeaf]

Do you think William Nylander is a franchise player? Because if not, Mitch Marner isn't one either.

What does Nylander have to do with Marner? Marner is a better player then Nylander. Not that I was calling Marner a franchise player just yet but thought your comment was a little strange considering most people are higher on Marner and have been for a little while.

 

[DoobieDubas]

Why can't someone who just watched Marner's 2nd half and playoffs think he has more room to grow and become a franchise player as compared to a Nylander?

Many have always thought Marner had higher upside and could be the best, in terms of point production, of all the players we've drafted and developed.

If he leads a team in scoring that has 2 franchise C's wouldn't that make him a franchise player?

Exact same logic could also apply to Nylander.

Yes there are franchise wingers but are very rare. A player who makes EVERYONE they play with better.

Patty kane and Ovi are 2 modern examples
I like bure as a past example

 

[Morgs]

I don’t think that McDavid is that great. Yes, He is highly skilled but I don’t have him as the next coming of Christ, sorry.

I think after this upcoming season, Matthews is going to close that gap big time.

Draisaitl does not even deserve to be in this conversation. Sure, he is good. He sure is not elite like the others.

It's ok that you think that. It is personal opinion though, because every offensive statistic has him as "by far" the best player in the NHL. Matthews is f***ing fantastic, don't get me wrong. Like he's crazy good for a 20 year old and has the potential to be the 2nd best player in the NHL. He's just not close to McDavid's tier, nobody is.

Drai is nowhere close to them, and it's close to laughable if you think he's significantly better than Nylander. He's still a great player though, and I'm only including him because he's their 2nd best C.

 

[Jack Bauer]

You're right, maybe I've pushed Nylander a little too far lately.

I just don't understand how the one who's been better so far in his career (and a lot less lucky), is the forgotten/expendable player, where as the other guy who's only been better on the PP is the "Soon to be Franchise Superstar"

Only been better on the PP?

Marner had a garbage first 30 games and still led the team in scoring and was dominant vs Boston.

He was way more then just better on the PP. He was showing a lot of confidence and was dominant towards the end of the season.

Just because people moved him a notch above Nylander due to his second half doesn't half to be a knock against Nylander. It's simply a plus for Marner.

Nylander had a slightly better 16/17. Marner moved past him in 17/18. But development isn't a 1 way trajectory. Playing with a Tavares level talent might hurt Marner early in 18/19 where Nylander will have the familarness of Matthews and Hyman to feed off of. Maybe by Christmas people flip/flop again but Marner/Tavares take over the league after they work through each others game and there's no question who is better by next April.

I haven't seen anyone forget Nylander or deem him expendable other then in the context of if you have to move someone it's probably the slightly older, right now slightly less valuable guy who isn't from Toronto but can still bring a huge return in a trade. That context shouldn't be lost on you.

 

[Morgs]

What does Nylander have to do with Marner? Marner is a better player then Nylander. Not that I was calling Marner a franchise player just yet but thought your comment was a little strange considering most people are higher on Marner and have been for a little while.

Nylander is better at everything except the PP though.

 

[Morgs]

Only been better on the PP?

Marner had a garbage first 30 games and still led the team in scoring and was dominant vs Boston.

He was way more then just better on the PP. He was showing a lot of confidence and was dominant towards the end of the season.

Just because people moved him a notch above Nylander due to his second half doesn't half to be a knock against Nylander. It's simply a plus for Marner.

Nylander had a slightly better 16/17. Marner moved past him in 17/18. But development isn't a 1 way trajectory. Playing with a Tavares level talent might hurt Marner early in 18/19 where Nylander will have the familarness of Matthews and Hyman to feed off of. Maybe by Christmas people flip/flop again but Marner/Tavares take over the league after they work through each others game and there's no question who is better by next April.

I haven't seen anyone forget Nylander or deem him expendable other then in the context of if you have to move someone it's probably the slightly older, right now slightly less valuable guy who isn't from Toronto but can still bring a huge return in a trade. That context shouldn't be lost on you.

He was dominant versus Boston because they targeted Auston/Willy and just hoped Mitch wouldn't kill them. It worked.

He's very good 5v5, but he's not in the same stratosphere as Willy is there. Willy creates way more shots/chances than Mitch does. Mitch is arguably a top-10 PP player in hockey.

What's going to be really nice is we're finally going to see what Willy/Matthews can do without facing the top-comp on a game-to-game basis, and we'll get to see what Marner can do with that kind of comp.

Meh, go to the trade boards and look at how many Leaf fans have tried trading Nylander on just the first page alone. Then look again for Mitch.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Yes there are franchise wingers but are very rare. A player who makes EVERYONE they play with better.

Patty kane and Ovi are 2 modern examples
I like bure as a past example

Some guys peaked at that level also but couldn't sustain it for as long as guys like Ovi and Kane have or had quite their success.

Iginla and Rick Nash come to mind as 2 guys who would fall under that category for me.

Bure in his 60 goal seasons was on a whole other level of electric for me. He and Lindros are 2 guys I wish I could go back in time to watch play live in their primes.

 

[93WrapAround]

Is this a serious thread? Why take main board nonsense into the Leaf board?

This. Reeks of insecurity to me. Why engage in a debate with people who wouldn't consider either one a franchise centre? It's not that serious.

 

[34]

It's ok that you think that. It is personal opinion though, because every offensive statistic has him as "by far" the best player in the NHL. Matthews is ****ing fantastic, don't get me wrong. Like he's crazy good for a 20 year old and has the potential to be the 2nd best player in the NHL. He's just not close to McDavid's tier, nobody is.

Drai is nowhere close to them, and it's close to laughable if you think he's significantly better than Nylander. He's still a great player though, and I'm only including him because he's their 2nd best C.

Edmonton is a 1 player team. McDavid...Kind of feel bad for him being stuck in that dump of a city and garbage Oilers team.

Yeah, Nylander is better than Draisaitl. Easily. Oilers fans just like to pump his tires.

 

[ACC1224]

What does Nylander have to do with Marner? Marner is a better player then Nylander. Not that I was calling Marner a franchise player just yet but thought your comment was a little strange considering most people are higher on Marner and have been for a little while.

Nylander is a very good player but Marner is better at pretty much every facet of the game and the gap seems to be widening,(Nylander has a better shot).

 

[Jack Bauer]

He was dominant versus Boston because they targeted Auston/Willy and just hoped Mitch wouldn't kill them. It worked.

He's very good 5v5, but he's not in the same stratosphere as Willy is there. Willy creates way more shots/chances than Mitch does. Mitch is arguably a top-10 PP player in hockey.

What's going to be really nice is we're finally going to see what Willy/Matthews can do without facing the top-comp on a game-to-game basis, and we'll get to see what Marner can do with that kind of comp.

Meh, go to the trade boards and look at how many Leaf fans have tried trading Nylander on just the first page alone. Then look again for Mitch.

Yes because when skill and talent are close to equal and 1 guy is Swedish picked 8th overall and the other from Toronto who went a year later in the top 4 you shouldn't be shocked Leaf fans making proposals are proposing to trade the older Swede who was drafted later.

In most peoples eyes though their trade value is similar but Marner has higher upside point production wise so why would you purposely trade the guy who has higher upside if you were making a proposal?

It's not just Leaf fans doing it. Media also mentioned moving Nylander on July 1. His contract situation also comes into play. Nylander being RFA now makes a trade more plausible then it does for the guy you just promised Tavares would be his winger.

All information we have make proposing Nylander in deals common sense as compared to Marner making $900K for another season while helping to lure Tavares.

 

[Morgs]

Edmonton is a 1 player team. McDavid...Kind of feel bad for him being stuck in that dump of a city and garbage Oilers team.

Yeah, Nylander is better than Draisaitl. Easily. Oilers fans just like to pump his tires.

It depends when it comes to Drai in my attempt to be unbias (hate Edmonton) opinion.

When he plays with McDavid, he looks like one of the best players in the entire NHL. When he plays without McDavid, he's a bit better than Kadri. I'd love to see what his stats look like in a full year at C.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Nylander is a very good player but Marner is better at pretty much every facet of the game and the gap seems to be widening,(Nylander has a better shot).

I think Marner is better skill wise and hockey sense wise but Nylander is a bit better in all 3 zones.

Both have high end talent.

A year ago after the World Championship people felt Nylander was a full step ahead.

Now Marner has surpassed him thanks to his dominant 2nd half and playoffs.

I could easily see that flip/flop happening 2 more times over the next 12 months.

But if I had to make a wager on who will lead this team in scoring my money, assuming perfect healthy for everyone, is on Mitch Marner.

 

[Notsince67]

Nylander is better at everything except the PP though.

Inaccurate

 

[34]

It depends when it comes to Drai in my attempt to be unbias (hate Edmonton) opinion.

When he plays with McDavid, he looks like one of the best players in the entire NHL. When he plays without McDavid, he's a bit better than Kadri. I'd love to see what his stats look like in a full year at C.

Anyone playing with McDavid is going to look good, and I hate Edmonton with a passion. Can not stand the delusional fans.

While I agree Draisaitl is a good player, he is no where near as good as oil fans make it sound. I think they forget we can watch the games here in T.O as well.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Inaccurate

Agreed. That's just simply not the case. Marner's vision is miles ahead of Nylander's. As is his hockey sense.

It's much too simplistic to say either only has 1 skill better then the other.

 

[Morgs]

Yes because when skill and talent are close to equal and 1 guy is Swedish picked 8th overall and the other from Toronto who went a year later in the top 4 you shouldn't be shocked Leaf fans making proposals are proposing to trade the older Swede who was drafted later.

In most peoples eyes though their trade value is similar but Marner has higher upside point production wise so why would you purposely trade the guy who has higher upside if you were making a proposal?

It's not just Leaf fans doing it. Media also mentioned moving Nylander on July 1. His contract situation also comes into play. Nylander being RFA now makes a trade more plausible then it does for the guy you just promised Tavares would be his winger.

All information we have make proposing Nylander in deals common sense as compared to Marner making $900K for another season while helping to lure Tavares.

I'm not shocked. It's sad that we're intentionally ignoring the guy who creates way more offense 5v5 and is better defensively.

I personally believe Nylander has way more untapped potential. Guy was thought of as a PP specialist in 2016-17, and can't produce 5v5. In 2017-18 guy produced top-40 in the entire NHL for 5v5 points, and couldn't score on the PP to save his life. You put his PP from 2016-17 and his even-strength from 2017-18 together and you have a 75 point player. Let's remember too, those 49 even strength points in 2017-18 were with only 62 games of Matthews. Marner on the other hand had both his best PPP and Even strength season in 2017-18 and came away with 69 points.

 

[JohnnyInThe6]

My rankings (top 10)
Crosby
McDavid
Bergeron
Malkin
Stamkos
Tavares
Backstrom
Matthews
Getzlaf
Seguin

 

[DoobieDubas]

My rankings (top 10)
Crosby
McDavid
Bergeron
Malkin
Stamkos
Tavares
Backstrom
Matthews
Getzlaf
Seguin

Getszlaf? lol

 

[DoobieDubas]

Where is flordias centre @JohnnyInThe6

 

[Notsince67]

Agreed. That's just simply not the case. Marner's vision is miles ahead of Nylander's. As is his hockey sense.

It's much too simplistic to say either only has 1 skill better then the other.

Would love to see another advanced stat that would display what I see.
# of pucks dug out of offensive corner

 

[JadedLeaf]

Nylander is a very good player but Marner is better at pretty much every facet of the game and the gap seems to be widening,(Nylander has a better shot).

Oh I didn't mean to imply Nylander isn't a great player because I think he is as well. I 'm just higher on Marner then Nylander. Marner had a terrible first 3o games of the season and produced at a franchise player level the rest of the season. Whether it's on the pp or not is irrelevant, throughout an entire 60 minute game I just think Marner is better.

We make the argument about pp time with Matthews because he gets barely any. Next season when/if Matthews gets more pp time and produces more, are we going to dismiss that as well because it's not at even strength? I get that pp time is less stable and depends largely on how much pp time your team gets on average but it's still a part of the game that affects the outcome one way or another.

Just watching the game though, Marner's vision is much better then Nylander. General effort looks a lot better as well. I hate arguing about which of our own players are better though because it always comes across as crapping the other player and that's just not how I feel about Nylander at all. He's a great player and will get better. Maybe next season he does something to make me feel like he's better then Marner, right now I don't and it's just my opinion.

 

[Morgs]

Inaccurate

But it's true though.

5v5 you can see that Nylander is in the 94th percentile when it comes to shot contributions (Shot Assists + Shots per 60). Where as Marner's in the 81st percentile. He's also better when it comes to possession, plays harder comp, and for the most part has had much harder zone starts.

Marner is still a fantastic player, and I'm not trying to bring him down in any way. He's just the Canadian boy that tries hard and loved the Leafs since being little. It's like people want him to be better so they believe he's better, when in reality they're very similar players with imo a slight edge to Nylander.

The difference really was how f***in' good Marner was on the PP.

 

[Jack Bauer]

I'm not shocked. It's sad that we're intentionally ignoring the guy who creates way more offense 5v5 and is better defensively.

I personally believe Nylander has way more untapped potential. Guy was thought of as a PP specialist in 2016-17, and can't produce 5v5. In 2017-18 guy produced top-40 in the entire NHL for 5v5 points, and couldn't score on the PP to save his life. You put his PP from 2016-17 and his even-strength from 2017-18 together and you have a 75 point player. Let's remember too, those 49 even strength points in 2017-18 were with only 62 games of Matthews. Marner on the other hand had both his best PPP and Even strength season in 2017-18 and came away with 69 points.

Nobody is intentionally ignoring anything.

You're using your own bias as a reason to drive that narrative.

Just because someone believes Marner to be the better player over the next 10 years doesn't mean they view Nylander as a lesser player or asset except for directly vs Marner.

I can view 2 amazing players as being amazing but still prefer 1 over the other without intentionally ignoring anything about the player I view as slightly inferior for various different reasons.

If I had to choose 1 player right now i'd take Marner.

You'd clearly take Nylander.

A majority, due to many different reasons, would take Marner and therefore when trading value for value would trade Nylander before Marner.

It's only as difficult to understand as you want to make it.

 

[DoobieDubas]

Some guys peaked at that level also but couldn't sustain it for as long as guys like Ovi and Kane have or had quite their success.

Iginla and Rick Nash come to mind as 2 guys who would fall under that category for me.

Bure in his 60 goal seasons was on a whole other level of electric for me. He and Lindros are 2 guys I wish I could go back in time to watch play live in their primes.

Same, especially bure the guy was magic he was ending his career when I started watching puck.

IMO marner is a franchise winger or will become one for sure he just makes everyone better when they play with him. JVR netted 37 and bozak got signed for 5m a year like...really...

Tavares Marner is going to put up nice #s