Rumor: All Purpose Trade Proposals, Speculation and Rumours - 2023/24

[Guffman]

I had a whole thing typed up about goalies and their value compared to players that got lost to the internet so I'll just summarize it as goalies don't seem to have the same value as a player does when it comes to impact on the game and the season and the trade market and their contracts demonstrate as such.

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

If a player is having a bad game, you can reduce his ice time and give it to players who are on their game. There are also 18 players playing so the impact of any individual player is generally not considered significant to the game. If a goalie is having a bad game, the team pretty much loses.

I would assume he's taking about Helle. Goalies historically return very little in value in trades even with term left.

Really good ones generally are not traded. Who is the comparable to a 3 time Vezina finalist being traded?

 

[Guffman]

Sure, I think that's a reasonable explanation, but I think as it relates to the Hellebuyck discussion, this volatility means he won't get the value that some are expecting on here in a trade.

Hellebuyck has established his consistent play though. Like I said, he was a 3-time Vezina finalist in 6 years. That can't simply be dismissed.

 

[Daximus]

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.

If a player is having a bad game, you can reduce his ice time and give it to players who are on their game. There are also 18 players playing so the impact of any individual player is generally not considered significant to the game. If a goalie is having a bad game, the team pretty much loses.



Really good ones generally are not traded. Who is the comparable to a 3 time Vezina finalist being traded?

The last one is probably Roy. Very few teams move goalies of high value but that is what makes the deal that much harder. There really isn't a recent comparable so its up how badly the teams want him and what having an upgrade in net is worth to them. A deal isn't done yet so I'd imagine its not worth as much as Chevy would like at this point.

 

[Guffman]

The last one is probably Roy. Very few teams move goalies of high value but that is what makes the deal that much harder. There really isn't a recent comparable so its up how badly the teams want him and what having an upgrade in net is worth to them. A deal isn't done yet so I'd imagine its not worth as much as Chevy would like at this point.

As I am prone to do, once Chevy exacts his princely sum from seem team, I will then proclaim on the forums, "Goalies are never traded for good trade compensation derp derp!!"

Since I am (eventually) always right, I can be patient for a few months before I get my yuks in.

 

[tbcwpg]

Hellebuyck has established his consistent play though. Like I said, he was a 3-time Vezina finalist in 6 years. That can't simply be dismissed.

It can't be dismissed but also history doesn't show that the return for a goalie in a trade matches how good they are.

Chevy might pull a rabbit out of a hat, I hope he does. I think it's less likely than in a Dubois or Scheifele trade.

 

[Guffman]

It can't be dismissed but also history doesn't show that the return for a goalie in a trade matches how good they are.

Chevy might pull a rabbit out of a hat, I hope he does. I think it's less likely than in a Dubois or Scheifele trade.

As I am prone to do, once Chevy exacts his princely sum from seem team, I will then proclaim on the forums, "Goalies are never traded for good trade compensation derp derp!!"

Since I am (eventually) always right, I can be patient for a few months before I get my yuks in.

 

[stimpsoncat]

I think regarding the market for Hellebuyck, teams are looking at how Vegas won with nobodies in goal and think they can do the same - or at least are using that as a bargaining tactic when assessing Helle's value in a trade. Once the season starts they will realize that they are not as deep or talented as Vegas, nor do their goalies have horseshoes up their ***. Once these "contending" teams start failing due to poor goaltending, or injuries start happening - the market heats up.

 

[tbcwpg]

I think regarding the market for Hellebuyck, teams are looking at how Vegas won with nobodies in goal and think they can do the same - or at least are using that as a bargaining tactic when assessing Helle's value in a trade. Once the season starts they will realize that they are not as deep or talented as Vegas, nor do their goalies have horseshoes up their ***. Once these "contending" teams start failing due to poor goaltending, or injuries start happening - the market heats up.

Imagine how the discussion would be if Florida and Bobrovsky won.

 

[None]

Imagine how the discussion would be if Florida and Bobrovsky won.

Or if Tampa and Vasilevskiy had won recently

 

[tbcwpg]

Or if Tampa and Vasilevskiy had won recently

That was 2021, that's ancient history

 

[Stumbledore]

That was 2021, that's ancient history

Things are becoming 'ancient' much faster than they used to do.

Having grandchildren in their teens will do that for you.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Schmidt to Anaheim or Chicago? That would be great. Not sure Jets would but I'd accept a late pick or 2

Schmidt and Harkins to Anaheim for a 3rd?
Stanley to Vegas for Thompson. All Logan trade

 

[Daximus]

As I am prone to do, once Chevy exacts his princely sum from seem team, I will then proclaim on the forums, "Goalies are never traded for good trade compensation derp derp!!"

Since I am (eventually) always right, I can be patient for a few months before I get my yuks in.

What examples can you provide to back up your claim?

 

[Guffman]

What examples can you provide to back up your claim?

It’s a pretty rare situation so there aren’t any recent examples. That’s why I find it interesting that people say “goalies don’t get traded for much” without recognizing that excellent goalies are rarely traded.

Let’s wait and see what Chevy extracts in this situation and we’ll see who is right.

 

[surixon]

It’s a pretty rare situation so there aren’t any recent examples. That’s why I find it interesting that people say “goalies don’t get traded for much” without recognizing that excellent goalies are rarely traded.

Let’s wait and see what Chevy extracts in this situation and we’ll see who is right.

The best recent example might be Loungo. Traded three times I'm his career.

Last trade to Florida at age 33 returned Markstrom and Mathias. He returned Bertuzzi, Auld, and Allan at age of 26.

So Helle likely gets somewhere between those packages.

 

[JetsFan815]

Schmidt to Anaheim or Chicago? That would be great. Not sure Jets would but I'd accept a late pick or 2

Schmidt and Harkins to Anaheim for a 3rd?
Stanley to Vegas for Thompson. All Logan trade

I think the Jets would probably trade Schmidt for "Future Considerations". I don't think they are expecting a return in an 88 trade. On the same token I doubt many teams take him on without the Jets adding a decent sweetener.

 

[DRW204]

really there's 5 consistently elite goalies over the past few years; Shesterkin, Saros, Helle, Sorokin and Vas. the other half of the top-10 list really change year-to-year (look at stats ie: GA vs xGA, or even year-to-year Vezina voting and see the rotating set of names)

i have not been enamored w/ helle's playoff performance as of late. the EDM series he was lights out. his PO-sv% is around middle of the pack vs the other PO goalies. some of it is on the team for sure, but i do think he has not been as sharp as some others in the post-season.

i can see why GM might not be quick to put 9-10M in a volatile position for a Goalie through their mid 30s - when just as much as Vas, Price and Bob are reaching cup finals, you have cheap goaltenders like Binnington, Hill, Murray, Kuemper and Oettinger reaching them too.

 

[ps241]

really there's 5 consistently elite goalies over the past few years; Shesterkin, Saros, Helle, Sorokin and Vas. the other half of the top-10 list really change year-to-year (look at stats ie: GA vs xGA, or even year-to-year Vezina voting and see the rotating set of names)

i have not been enamored w/ helle's playoff performance as of late. the EDM series he was lights out. his PO-sv% is around middle of the pack vs the other PO goalies. some of it is on the team for sure, but i do think he has not been as sharp as some others in the post-season.

i can see why GM might not be quick to put 9-10M in a volatile position for a Goalie through their mid 30s - when just as much as Vas, Price and Bob are reaching cup finals, you have cheap goaltenders like Binnington, Hill, Murray, Kuemper and Oettinger reaching them too.

I made a post on this in the Helle thread so we are on the same page here.

Helle has the biggest regular season work load of the 5 with 175 games. Vas would have much higher work load if you included playoff use since he has played 52 additional high stress playoff games in the last 3 seasons. Sorokin and Shesterkin have had 30 and 40 less games played respectively than Connor in the last 3 seasons cumulatively. Also the other four are 27-28 years old and Helle is 30. These 5 guys are alone on an island though for 3 year average.

 

[Daximus]

It’s a pretty rare situation so there aren’t any recent examples. That’s why I find it interesting that people say “goalies don’t get traded for much” without recognizing that excellent goalies are rarely traded.

Let’s wait and see what Chevy extracts in this situation and we’ll see who is right.

The best recent goalie is probably Schneider who went for a 9th overall pick but also had 2 years left and was 3 years younger than Helle.

This is the major problem with the Helle deal I think. Hes on the back 9 of his career now. So its a tougher trade than just hes a top 3 goalie. Yeah but for how much longer?

 

[10Ducky10]

What would it take to pry Pesce out of Carolina?
Would he re-sign an 8 x 6m deal?

 

[DRW204]

The best recent goalie is probably Schneider who went for a 9th overall pick but also had 2 years left and was 3 years younger than Helle.

This is the major problem with the Helle deal I think. Hes on the back 9 of his career now. So its a tougher trade than just hes a top 3 goalie. Yeah but for how much longer?

Ryan Miller also did go at the tdl in 2014, 3 years the other way though In age. Had a Vezina and 920 the previous few seasons

Bishop was another tdl goalie a few years later

 

[Daximus]

Ryan Miller also did go at the tdl in 2014, 3 years the other way though In age. Had a Vezina and 920 the previous few seasons

Bishop was another tdl goalie a few years later

Miller seems to have been a bit more of quantity trade. Stewart and Ott are kind of a wash in that deal. So he gets back Halak, 1st, B Prospect in Carrrier and a 3rd.

Bishop got conditional pick. Budaj, A B prospect in Cernak, and a 7th.

It's really hard to pin down what Helle is going to return in a trade.

 

[Flair Hay]

Miller seems to have been a bit more of quantity trade. Stewart and Ott are kind of a wash in that deal. So he gets back Halak, 1st, B Prospect in Carrrier and a 3rd.

Bishop got conditional pick. Budaj, A B prospect in Cernak, and a 7th.

It's really hard to pin down what Helle is going to return in a trade.

Reading the tea leaves as the amateur armchair scout I am...

1st + B prospect + meh NHL goalie with salary

 

[Daximus]

Reading the tea leaves as the amateur armchair scout I am...

1st + B prospect + meh NHL goalie with salary

I think the Jets are going to angle for some roster players with this deal or at least guys on the cusp.

That's why I like Buffalo the most. UPL can be had as a throw in. We can probably snag that 2024 first rounder and then angle for some of the many on the cusp players they have and also likely get Lyubushkin as a cap throw in as well which gives us some much needed RHD depth for a season.

 

[Daximus]

Well from reading into it, seems like all of NJ, Detroit and Buffalo brass feel they will just run with what they have. And Ottawa has no interest in a goalie that won't resign in Canada.

I think the market for Helle has run dry among those teams for now. We basically are banking on all or some of them faultering early into the season and hitting the panic button.