All Purpose Mitch Marner Talk II

[TMLAM34]

We're all now dumber for reading this. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Seriously what is this? Horribly thought out

And why are we dumber? Did we forget Dubois was a top three selection, only 22 years of age? 6’3, can play center or wing, goes into dirty areas and in front of the net and isn’t afraid to use his body. Not to mention the cap relief we’d get over the next two seasons minimum. Then adding a younger player like Texier or Foudy would be a nice addition to our depth, definitely better options than Vesey, Simmonds and possibly Barabanov.

 

[Auston 316]

I know this would never happen but with reports of Dubois wanting out of Columbus, I’d be all over that if I were Dubas.

Marner + Engvall for Dubois + Texier/Foudy

OR

Marner + Dermott for Dubois + Gavrikov + later pick

Still lol

but also: I love how these proposals almost always have “later pick” at the end of them like “well I was totally disinterested in your shit offer previously but a 6th in 2023? You got yourself a deal.”

 

[BAM]

This thread is so weird.
People kept going back and forth about Marner’s contract and his productions, using comparable like Kane....
He is being paid like a top 10 players in the league and if you are being paid like a top 10 player in the league, you better be one the best player in the games you play- game in and game out, along with helping your team get the W.
Mackinnon is arguably the top 3 players in the league and along with his contract, he is by far the most wanted(by teams) player. He is literally getting as many points as McDavid for half his contract while also leading his team to playoff series Wins.
But when he signed his contract, it was not received as a good contract plus his coaches once thought he would be better as a RW than a C.
Point I am trying to make is, as long as the team is winning and the player is producing, who cares how much these players are getting paid or their comparables....
Honestly, not going jump into this Kane Vs Marner debate but I think it is fair to say, all of us would be more than thrill if Marner can have the same success as Kane, like winning 3 Cups while being a Leafs plus other individual awards.

Mackinnon ELC production: 153 points in 218 games, 0.70 ppg - 58 point pace over 82 games
Marner ELC production: 224 points in 241 games, 0.93 ppg - 76 point pace over 82 games

The reason Mackinnon got his contract was due to his not being a star player coming out of his ELC...In fact on this site when he signed he wasn't viewed as worth $6.3 million, the Avs were paying for what he might one day become and he rewarded them with his development.

 

[DarkKnight]

I’ll never understand why people can’t just sit back and enjoy watching such a unique, dynamic talent work his craft. So lucky to have this kid, wish people could just appreciate it. People lose the plot in here.

 

[Sypher04]

I’ll never understand why people can’t just sit back and enjoy watching such a unique, dynamic talent work his craft. So lucky to have this kid, wish people could just appreciate it. People lose the plot in here.

I'll admit I get dragged into these debates at times when I see someone post something I think is especially unfair but I couldn't agree with you more. And it's all the big guys really to varying degrees and different people making the arguments

At the end of the day, for the next 4 years we have Matthews, marner, Tavares and Nylander locked up and that will make us a threat and probably pretty fun to watch most of the time.

Management has their work cut out for them continuing to replenish talent around those big salaries, but that is their problem, and so far they seem up to the task. With the flat cap being a reality now, I have to wonder how many people could honestly say they expected the Leafs would be able to get anywhere near as much done this offseason as they managed to

Either way, let's just enjoy the ride.

 

[LeafsNation75]

 

[LeafsNation75]

Marner is ready for the season to start tomorrow because he tweeted this video and it was also re-tweeted by the Maple Leafs Twitter account.

 

[Atomos2]

Marner better be good this year. No more of the kid stuff we've seen in the past. He wears a letter, he commands a huge contract, he needs to be a (if not the) leader of the team. He better not revert back to the same kid form he did with Marleau. It's fine to be casual and fun with the team but he should be leading all these players and not acting like their adopted son.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Marner better be good this year. No more of the kid stuff we've seen in the past. He wears a letter, he commands a huge contract, he needs to be a (if not the) leader of the team. He better not revert back to the same kid form he did with Marleau. It's fine to be casual and fun with the team but he should be leading all these players and not acting like their adopted son.

Agreed. Time to take his game to another level. Shoot more, become less predictable, go to the dirty areas more

 

[The Podium]

Marner needs to have fun out there. He is a different (worse) player when there is expectations on his shoulders. Buddy needs to be fun and energized to be effective.

 

[PromisedLand]

This thread is so weird.
People kept going back and forth about Marner’s contract and his productions, using comparable like Kane....
He is being paid like a top 10 players in the league and if you are being paid like a top 10 player in the league, you better be one the best player in the games you play- game in and game out, along with helping your team get the W.
Mackinnon is arguably the top 3 players in the league and along with his contract, he is by far the most wanted(by teams) player. He is literally getting as many points as McDavid for half his contract while also leading his team to playoff series Wins.
But when he signed his contract, it was not received as a good contract plus his coaches once thought he would be better as a RW than a C.
Point I am trying to make is, as long as the team is winning and the player is producing, who cares how much these players are getting paid or their comparables....
Honestly, not going jump into this Kane Vs Marner debate but I think it is fair to say, all of us would be more than thrill if Marner can have the same success as Kane, like winning 3 Cups while being a Leafs plus other individual awards.

Mack is the best bang for your buck kinda player in the NHL. IMO Mack is the best contract in the NHL. Also, Mack has been quoted saying he will sing for a lot less if it means his team wins. Hard to find guys like that.

Spittin Chicklets did a great interview with Crosby last summer (available on YouTube) I think and Sid had some great answers to put things in perspective

 

[BAM]

I hope this is the year Marner firmly entrenches himself in the conversation for best winger in the game with Panarin, Ovechkin, Kane, Marchand, Pasta. Scored 94 as a 22 year old, on pace for 93 this season. Full year with Keefe and on a line with Matthews I expect him to take that jump into the 100+ point region. There's no reason he can't be a borderline top 10 in hockey if he takes the next step and goes full Kane/Panarin on the league.

 

[Atomos2]

Marner needs to have fun out there. He is a different (worse) player when there is expectations on his shoulders. Buddy needs to be fun and energized to be effective.

I get where you're coming from and its true thats a significant part of his game. But he's opened this door, he wears a letter and commands the contract and is expected to be a leader. He needs to be able to control that switch rather than letting it control him. He's not a kid anymore, if he can't be fun and energized on his own naturally then he needs to figure out how to turn that switch to do it consistently.

 

[Trapper]

I get where you're coming from and its true thats a significant part of his game. But he's opened this door, he wears a letter and commands the contract and is expected to be a leader. He needs to be able to control that switch rather than letting it control him. He's not a kid anymore, if he can't be fun and energized on his own naturally then he needs to figure out how to turn that switch to do it consistently.

Both Marner and Nylander need to find the intensity.
Stop saying you weren’t engaged (Marner) and stop saying you want to be dominant (Nylander).
The real deals don’t need to say it.
Just like cool guys don’t look at explosions. Find it, do it.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I think we sometimes forget how special Marner is as a player. I think Leafs nation are obviously still scorned by the contract negotiations, and seem to focus on that sour taste and not what he brings to the table. Myself included. But I am changing that this year. This is a player with exceptional talent. There were years and years where this franchise lacked a single player with even remotely similar level skill. I am not prepared to run this kid to the ground for holding out on a price that was clearly fair when comparing him to the other contracts on this team. I am not talking about league wide, this has nothing to do with that. But when analyzing his role on this team, He fits quite fairly within the internal structure of the leafs cap. All that said, his skill set will forever be second to AM34. Understandably. I really do believe we have yet to see Auston Matthews best, which is crazy to think. He has the stuff to be Hart trophy worthy. in my mind, Auston is generational. I would not classify Mitch as generational, but make no mistake, Mitch is not all that far behind. I would love to see mitch take the next step in his game and play more consistently. This is a kid who put up 94 pts in 2018-19 and was on pace to match that last year. The media and the fanbase love to focus on Mitch's shortcomings, as he was the consensus villain last year. I really hope this changes this year. We have 2 elite young players that are going to make mistakes. personally and professionally. I hope Mitch can win back his haters this year with a monster year. I Think I am pulling for him the most TBH

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I hope everyone that takes joy in criticism of Marner chokes on every word this season. Jush saying . Just under half a goal per game would go a long way for my hope. I’m guessing 23 + goals for Marner this year and 50+ assists. In other words his best statistical season seems possible to me. Last year was not a very good season from him. It didn’t look like he was himself on or off the ice. The fun spirit he is should return.
Beat the crap out of the habs Magic

 

[IPS]

I hope everyone that takes joy in criticism of Marner chokes on every word this season. Jush saying . Just under half a goal per game would go a long way for my hope. I’m guessing 23 + goals for Marner this year and 50+ assists. In other words his best statistical season seems possible to me. Last year was not a very good season from him. It didn’t look like he was himself on or off the ice. The fun spirit he is should return.
Beat the crap out of the habs Magic

He did deal with that nasty ankle injury which takes awhile to heal. He should be as fast as ever this season.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Mackinnon ELC production: 153 points in 218 games, 0.70 ppg - 58 point pace over 82 games
Marner ELC production: 224 points in 241 games, 0.93 ppg - 76 point pace over 82 games

The reason Mackinnon got his contract was due to his not being a star player coming out of his ELC...In fact on this site when he signed he wasn't viewed as worth $6.3 million, the Avs were paying for what he might one day become and he rewarded them with his development.

If your elite young players are superstars right out of the gate, then you have among the best players in the league making 750k and you’re supposed to win cups (Pens, Hawks, etc). The catch is you have to pay them a kings ransom when their elc’s are up.

If your star players take some time to grow (like Mackinnon) then you don’t get those eite player elc years... but you get a sweet post elc contract and have elite players on the cheap.

The leafs core was elite out of the gate, but it resulted in ZERO playoff success... and then we have to pay them a kings ransom (and overpaid on top of that).

In typical leaf fashion, we got the worst of both worlds. Cursed franchise.

 

[FlareKnight]

I think we sometimes forget how special Marner is as a player. I think Leafs nation are obviously still scorned by the contract negotiations, and seem to focus on that sour taste and not what he brings to the table. Myself included. But I am changing that this year. This is a player with exceptional talent. There were years and years where this franchise lacked a single player with even remotely similar level skill. I am not prepared to run this kid to the ground for holding out on a price that was clearly fair when comparing him to the other contracts on this team. I am not talking about league wide, this has nothing to do with that. But when analyzing his role on this team, He fits quite fairly within the internal structure of the leafs cap. All that said, his skill set will forever be second to AM34. Understandably. I really do believe we have yet to see Auston Matthews best, which is crazy to think. He has the stuff to be Hart trophy worthy. in my mind, Auston is generational. I would not classify Mitch as generational, but make no mistake, Mitch is not all that far behind. I would love to see mitch take the next step in his game and play more consistently. This is a kid who put up 94 pts in 2018-19 and was on pace to match that last year. The media and the fanbase love to focus on Mitch's shortcomings, as he was the consensus villain last year. I really hope this changes this year. We have 2 elite young players that are going to make mistakes. personally and professionally. I hope Mitch can win back his haters this year with a monster year. I Think I am pulling for him the most TBH

I hope he can win people back. But that's going to be on him to actually do it. He signed the contract, he engaged in that kind of negotiation, so it's on him. He knew what he was doing in exchanging good will for cash. It was absolutely in his right to do that. But that's the exchange he made. Now it's go out there and bare minimum be one of the best players on the planet. There's no hiding or getting around it. Not walk out after a season is done and talk about not being engaged.

Now it's time to get out there and take his game up a level. If he and the core itself wants to stay together that's what has to happen. He's got the talent and he got what he wanted from his negotiations. Now time to have a monster season. Have fun or whatever he needs in order to be most successful. But, has to actually play a major role in leading this team where it needs to go. And if he does that then things will be fine. The contract will still be awful, but that will be a minor gripe in comparison to the bigger picture. Should be interesting to see if Marner is the hero or the villain by the end of this season.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I hope he can win people back. But that's going to be on him to actually do it. He signed the contract, he engaged in that kind of negotiation, so it's on him. He knew what he was doing in exchanging good will for cash. It was absolutely in his right to do that. But that's the exchange he made. Now it's go out there and bare minimum be one of the best players on the planet. There's no hiding or getting around it. Not walk out after a season is done and talk about not being engaged.

Now it's time to get out there and take his game up a level. If he and the core itself wants to stay together that's what has to happen. He's got the talent and he got what he wanted from his negotiations. Now time to have a monster season. Have fun or whatever he needs in order to be most successful. But, has to actually play a major role in leading this team where it needs to go. And if he does that then things will be fine. The contract will still be awful, but that will be a minor gripe in comparison to the bigger picture. Should be interesting to see if Marner is the hero or the villain by the end of this season.

I can respect that logic. big boy money comes with boy boy expectations. The reality of it is, these players are asked to be much more than just superstars. They are thrust into an environment unlike any in the NHL. The scrutiny and microscope on these guys is unlike any in the NHL. Could you imagine if we had signed bobrovsky to that deal he got in FLA, and for him to produce they way he did last year? He would never recover. This fanbase has, and will continue to bury players until they produce beyond their pay cheque. For Mitch, Auston and JT, they signed deals that we as a fanbase and media view as anchors. Holding us back so to speak. When in reality they are, and have been our best players. That narrative has never brought the best out of the player in Toronto. I cant help but remember what Mats Sundin said at his jersey ceremony. He practically urged the fans in attendance and those watching on TV to pump the breaks on these guys. As if to say, if you show them this kind of "support" they will not perform. I am not saying baby mitch, or any player for that matter. But fueling the fire doesn't help. Sidney Crosby said on spittin chicklets that taking less money only works if everyone around you does. So is Mitch really the villain in all of this? Mitch, Auston, JT all want to win, and they know when they need to step up. I expect them to do so personally

 

[ChickenMcNugget]

I can respect that logic. big boy money comes with boy boy expectations. The reality of it is, these players are asked to be much more than just superstars. They are thrust into an environment unlike any in the NHL. The scrutiny and microscope on these guys is unlike any in the NHL. Could you imagine if we had signed bobrovsky to that deal he got in FLA, and for him to produce they way he did last year? He would never recover. This fanbase has, and will continue to bury players until they produce beyond their pay cheque. For Mitch, Auston and JT, they signed deals that we as a fanbase and media view as anchors. Holding us back so to speak. When in reality they are, and have been our best players. That narrative has never brought the best out of the player in Toronto. I cant help but remember what Mats Sundin said at his jersey ceremony. He practically urged the fans in attendance and those watching on TV to pump the breaks on these guys. As if to say, if you show them this kind of "support" they will not perform. I am not saying baby mitch, or any player for that matter. But fueling the fire doesn't help. Sidney Crosby said on spittin chicklets that taking less money only works if everyone around you does. So is Mitch really the villain in all of this? Mitch, Auston, JT all want to win, and they know when they need to step up. I expect them to do so personally

I respect all that you have said here, thanks for being so clear and civil. I do, however, think it is unfair to compare JT with Mitch and Auston. He was signed as a UFA and was clearly signed (IMO anyway) at and likely below market value. He was not in a position (like Mitch or Nylander) that can hold out and put the current team in a tough spot. So i do not hold JT to the same standards as the other 2.

For me, Mitch has shown that he only wanted to play for the leafs if he got the absolute most amount possible and will hold out otherwise. Ofcourse it is in his best interest to do that and makes sense financially. However, i do not hold him in as high regard as i did before the contract negotiations and i do understand if he does get under more criticism than deserved.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I respect all that you have said here, thanks for being so clear and civil. I do, however, think it is unfair to compare JT with Mitch and Auston. He was signed as a UFA and was clearly signed (IMO anyway) at and likely below market value. He was not in a position (like Mitch or Nylander) that can hold out and put the current team in a tough spot. So i do not hold JT to the same standards as the other 2.

For me, Mitch has shown that he only wanted to play for the leafs if he got the absolute most amount possible and will hold out otherwise. Ofcourse it is in his best interest to do that and makes sense financially. However, i do not hold him in as high regard as i did before the contract negotiations and i do understand if he does get under more criticism than deserved.

Ya fair enough, I totally agree with your assessment of the JT deal. If he wasn't getting that from us, it would have been somewhere else. The ramifications of that deal was that it set an internal cap structure within the leafs that caused all 3 young guns to value based on JT's deal. I obviously wish our young guns and more importantly their agents looked at JT's resume and set put that in perspective when drawing their starting negotiation point. Unfortunately, NHL agents are not dumb, and they exploit flaws like this routinely. Mitch and Auston were unfortunately paid in relation to JT, and not in relation to RFA's in similar positions. Did this suck? yes. But I am choosing not to fault the player. This was valuation that was set for them. They just took it. Do I fault KD? no, he went and acquired the biggest UFA in the last 20-30 years, and has largely found ways to mitigate cap trouble with low cap hit complimentary pieces. Has the team performed they way he planned or we had hoped? absolutely not. But at the end of the day, KD has addressed most if not all needs year in and year out. our defense was poor in 2018/19, we brought in barrie. Much to the delight of most of this fanbase. Tyson did not come as advertised, he moved on. Signed a bunch of low ticket pieces to be able to afford our long awaited top pairing RD in brodie (hopefully). Simply put, I am choosing to believe these contracts are not holding us back. This team is lights out on paper. not to mention the depth. If the contracts were holding us back, there would be gaps in the lineup, and certainly no depth. I have faith in this group of players, and I certainly have faith in the management to adjust as necessary. Which i do believe they've shown so far

 

[Dekes For Days]

If your elite young players are superstars right out of the gate, then you have among the best players in the league making 750k and you’re supposed to win cups (Pens, Hawks, etc). The catch is you have to pay them a kings ransom when their elc’s are up.

None of the Pittsburgh or Chicago players had won a cup when they signed, and cups are never a guarantee for anybody, though yes, Lou and Babcock both failed to take proper advantage of their ELC years.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

He did deal with that nasty ankle injury which takes awhile to heal. He should be as fast as ever this season.

I hope so. Heard a little clip of Keefe saying he is flying out there. Matthews also was mentioned as flying. Matthews is 13 pounds lighter coming in to camp. Them two could be a handful even more so than ever before. Ankle injuries are horrible IPS. I turned mine over so many times (soccer) it just got weaker every time and harder to fully heal. Lots of rest probably was awesome for him healing that nagging injury.
I am really high on my points per game average guess at 1.30 compared to his career high. Career year possible. I might be a touch high on second thoughts

 

[Twine Tickler]

None of the Pittsburgh or Chicago players had won a cup when they signed, and cups are never a guarantee for anybody, though yes, Lou and Babcock both failed to take proper advantage of their ELC years.

Going for it while your core pieces are on their ELC is something I feel like was a logic I once believed in, and to a certain degree still do. But Lou kinda/sorta did by getting Patty Marleau. I cant remember the UFA class that year, but I do recall that being a big name that year. Player aside, he spent 6 sheets "going for it". I guess where my belief to 'go for it" is now wavering because of that signing, and was further cemented when the canucks "went for it" signing myers. To what is now a horrible contract, 1 year after it was signed. One that could, impact their ability to improve going forward. Or at the very least force them to pay a price to get rid of, similar to marleau. I think the reality is, the leafs will always be up to the cap, even when they suck. So my belief has shifted to when a team graduates from the rebuild to an upswing with a new core on ELC, I think the focus should be on adding depth to the prospect pool. So that when those players come out of their ELC, you have another wave of prospects playing on their ELC. sustained success. That said, it very rarely happens that way because GM's make moves to save their own jobs.