All Purpose Mitch Marner Talk II

[Raging Bull]

You're forgetting that I demand consistency. I DEMAND it.

I was told thousands of times in the Matthews threads that goals are SIGNIFICANTLY more valuable than assists when it comes to contract evaluation. All those Marner comparables that make 2-3 mil aav less a year than Marner score significantly more goals.

Zeke's stats highlight how overpaid Marner is.

Get over yourself.

 

[Stephen]

You're forgetting that I demand consistency. I DEMAND it.

I was told thousands of times in the Matthews threads that goals are SIGNIFICANTLY more valuable than assists when it comes to contract evaluation. All those Marner comparables that make 2-3 mil aav less a year than Marner score significantly more goals.

Zeke's stats highlight how overpaid Marner is.

I’m as hard on Marner as anybody but when he’s 3rd in league scoring that’s basically living up to the contract AAV.

 

[zeke]

You're forgetting that I demand consistency. I DEMAND it.

I was told thousands of times in the Matthews threads that goals are SIGNIFICANTLY more valuable than assists when it comes to contract evaluation. All those Marner comparables that make 2-3 mil aav less a year than Marner score significantly more goals.

Zeke's stats highlight how overpaid Marner is.

Why don't you ever demand consistency out of yourself tho? Not only did you make fun of the goals > assists argument, but you also know well that nobody said assists didn't matter. Here I generously give you the stats YOU HAVE ALWAYS TOLD US ARE THR ONLY ONES THAT MATTER. Be consistent for once.


Anyways, here's the updated stats, with more comparables:




82gm Paces since Last Year:

McDavid (81gms): 44gls, 129pts, -5
Draisaitl (88gms): 48gls, 127pts, +4
Pastrnak (77gms): 56gls, 112pts, +25
Marner (74gms): 26gls, 98pts, +19
Matthews (84gms): 58gls, 97pts, +25
Eichel (79gms): 39gls, 92pts, -2
Connor (86gms): 44gls, 84pts, +0
Point (80gms): 32gls, 82pts, +34
Aho (81gms): 43gls, 80pts, +13
Laine (76gms): 37gls, 78pts, +7
Rantanen (54gms): 40gls, 77pts, +3
Pettersson (87gms): 30gls, 75pts, +15
Barzal (82gms): 25gls, 75pts, +9
Konecny (78gms): 31gls, 73pts, +3
Ehlers (85gms): 33gls, 72pts, +24
Nylander (84gms): 34gls, 69pts, +0
Tkachuk (84gms): 27gls, 69pts, -1
Boeser (76gms): 29gls, 68pts, +1
Larkin (88gms): 21gls, 58pts, -25
Keller (85gms): 21gls, 52pts, +0



82gm Paces since Keefe:

McDavid (58gms): 40gls, 119pts, -17
Draisaitl (65gms): 44gls, 116pts, -5
Pastrnak (56gms): 50gls, 104pts, +25
Marner (57gms): 27gls, 104pts, +27
Matthews (62gms): 61gls, 97pts, +25
Connor (64gms): 50gls, 91pts, +10
Eichel (58gms): 35gls, 91pts, -3
Aho (59gms): 44gls, 86pts, +11
Point (65gms): 34gls, 86pts, +42
Laine (56gms): 43gls, 78pts, +9
Barzal (63gms): 21gls, 76pts, -5
Ehlers (64gms): 32gls, 74pts, +31
Nylander (61gms): 36gls, 73pts, -5
Rantanen (45gms): 38gls, 71pts, +2
Konecny (57gms): 30gls, 71pts, +4
Tkachuk (60gms): 25gls, 70pts, +1
Pettersson (65gms): 30gls, 68pts, +18
Boeser (54gms): 27gls, 64pts, -3
Larkin (65gms): 22gls, 58pts, -33
Keller (63gms): 23gls, 53pts, +4

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Why don't you ever demand consistency out of yourself tho? Not only did you make fun of the goals > assists argument, but you also know well that nobody said assists didn't matter. Here I generously give you the stats YOU HAVE ALWAYS TOLD US ARE THR ONLY ONES THAT MATTER. Be consistent for once.

I have always been consistent that it's the combination of goals/points. But what happens on this forum is that in the Marner, threads, we focus mostly on POINTS. And in Matthews threads, the focus is of course goals. It's picking and choosing. But both matter when looking at comparables. As such, Matthews doesn't deserve McDavid money (when term is included) because, while Matthews gets marginally more goals, it doesn't outweigh the ridiculous amount of more points McDavid gets (like 30ish more points)

With Marner, his comparalbes are still Aho/Rantanen. While Marner gets more points (not ridiculously more... n), they both get significantly more goals, which pretty much balances it out. Marner shouldn't make a penny more than those 2 players. But 2-3 million more? It's nuts.

 

[zeke]

I have always been consistent that it's the combination of goals/points. But what happens on this forum is that in the Marner, threads, we focus mostly on POINTS. And in Matthews threads, the focus is of course goals. It's picking and choosing. But both matter when looking at comparables. As such, Matthews doesn't deserve McDavid money (when term is included) because, while Matthews gets marginally more goals, it doesn't outweigh the ridiculous amount of more points McDavid gets (like 30ish more points)

With Marner, his comparalbes are still Aho/Rantanen. While Marner gets more points (not ridiculously more... n), they both get significantly more goals, which pretty much balances it out. Marner shouldn't make a penny more than those 2 players. But 2-3 million more? It's nuts.

I gave you the numbers you always said were the only ones that mattered.

So be consistent.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I gave you the numbers you always said were the only ones that mattered.

So be consistent.

I am. Those numbers show that Matthews doesn't deserve McDavid money (when term is included), and Marner should make Aho/Rantanen money.

 

[zeke]

I am. Those numbers show that Matthews doesn't deserve McDavid money (when term is included), and Marner should make Aho/Rantanen money.

I am glad you are exposing your inconsistency to all of us so blatantly.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Marner and Matthews are being paid to be amongst the league's best players. And they currently are. And are the league's best duo. At both ends of the rink. Matthews' play, in particular, away from the puck this season is on another level and Marner has been quite solid as well.

There's nothing to discuss here.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I am glad you are exposing your inconsistency to all of us so blatantly.

So Matthews gets significantly less points than McDavid... but is worth McDavid money because he gets so many more goals than McDavid.

Why doesn't that precise logic apply to Aho and Rantanen when comparing to Marner?

 

[LeafsNation75]

You're forgetting that I demand consistency. I DEMAND it.

I was told thousands of times in the Matthews threads that goals are SIGNIFICANTLY more valuable than assists when it comes to contract evaluation. All those Marner comparables that make 2-3 mil aav less a year than Marner score significantly more goals.

Zeke's stats highlight how overpaid Marner is.

In some fantasy world if McDavid and Draisaitl never became NHL players than Marner with his 23 points would be 1st in league scoring instead of 3rd.

 

[RogerR]

Ah yes, more "Cap hit" talk of 1-2 players without looking at the entire roster.

Thornton, Spezza, Simmonds, Vesey, Bogosian make 4.8 combined.

Good on Oilers getting a better deal for McDavid. They are a complete mess elsewhere.

 

[zeke]

So Matthews gets significantly less points than McDavid... but is worth McDavid money because he gets so many more goals than McDavid.

Why doesn't that precise logic apply to Aho and Rantanen when comparing to Marner?

Maybe you can share your consistent calculation with us there.

 

[Stephen]

So Matthews gets significantly less points than McDavid... but is worth McDavid money because he gets so many more goals than McDavid.

Why doesn't that precise logic apply to Aho and Rantanen when comparing to Marner?

If we make our evaluations as snapshots in time, this is the worst and most inappropriate time to be calling out Marner and Matthews. And I'm a guy who has no hesitation criticizing Marner.

The Leafs are in first place in the NHL at the moment and the two of them sit 3rd and 6th in league scoring respectively. Marner is on pace for 118 points and Matthews is on pace for 109 points over 82 games. This is really as good as it gets and I'm signing the cheque for $22 million for that performance.

In terms of the McDavid comparison, I'm not sure that just because McDavid might be hitting all-time PPG totals that Matthews and Marner need to keep up to the 0.1 decimal place. The Oilers still suck and I think they'd want a better balance of team to individual success, aka, what Toronto currently has going for them.

In terms of Aho, Rantanen and Point, this is a bad time to be holding up their contracts because Marner has been separating himself from them to justify the bigger contract.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If we make our evaluations as snapshots in time, this is the worst and most inappropriate time to be calling out Marner and Matthews. And I'm a guy who has no hesitation criticizing Marner.

The Leafs are in first place in the NHL at the moment and the two of them sit 3rd and 6th in league scoring respectively. Marner is on pace for 118 points and Matthews is on pace for 109 points over 82 games. This is really as good as it gets and I'm signing the cheque for $22 million for that performance.

In terms of the McDavid comparison, I'm not sure that just because McDavid might be hitting all-time PPG totals that Matthews and Marner need to keep up to the 0.1 decimal place. The Oilers still suck and I think they'd want a better balance of team to individual success, aka, what Toronto currently has going for them.

In terms of Aho, Rantanen and Point, this is a bad time to be holding up their contracts because Marner has been separating himself from them to justify the bigger contract.

Not "calling out" Marner and Matthews.

Zeke showed stats and said this:

"Remind me who were all of Mitch's "comparables" when he signed his contract, according to the mainstream stats? (for all of you who doubted the more nuanced advanced stats)."

I'm just saying that the same still applies.

Matthews wasn't in the McDavid tier, and still isn't. Even right now, McDavid is pacing for 144 points/82, while Matthews is pacing for 109 points. So I still stand that Matthews shouldn't be paid McDavid money (when term is included).

Now, this point gets challenged by saying "But Matthews scores significantly more goals than McDavid... so it's equal".

Ok. So why doesn't that apply to Aho/Rantanen in comparison to Marner? Since signing their contracts, the point/goal differential is similar between those two to Marner as McDavid to Matthews.

Though I do concede that Aho/Rantanen had poor starts this year.

 

[Mickey Marner]

McDavid is worth more than 12.5 AAV though, just like Draisaitl is worth more than 8.5 AAV and Pastrnak is worth more than 6.67 AAV. 16 & 34 might not be worth more than 11.64 and 10.9, but they're both earning their salaries this season. I mean, we're first place almost entirely off of the sweat of their brow. If they're not worth the money we're paying them no Leaf expect perhaps Holl and Hyman are. But if that were true we wouldn't be first place with only 4.25 million worth of players earning their salary.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

McDavid is worth more than 12.5 AAV though, just like Draisaitl is worth more than 8.5 AAV and Pastrnak is worth more than 6.67 AAV. 16 & 34 might not be worth more than 11.64 and 10.9, but they're both earning their salaries this season. I mean, we're first place almost entirely off of the sweat of their brow. If they're not worth the money we're paying them no Leaf expect perhaps Holl and Hyman are. But if that were true we wouldn't be first place with only 4.25 million worth of players earning their salary.

If that’s the going rate for players of that tier, then I wouldn’t say they are underpaid. I’d say the leafs players are overpaid.

You're pretty much saying “It’s not Dubas’s fault that other gm’s signed their super star players to cheaper deals”.

 

[LeafsNation75]

McDavid is worth more than 12.5 AAV though, just like Draisaitl is worth more than 8.5 AAV and Pastrnak is worth more than 6.67 AAV. 16 & 34 might not be worth more than 11.64 and 10.9, but they're both earning their salaries this season. I mean, we're first place almost entirely off of the sweat of their brow. If they're not worth the money we're paying them no Leaf expect perhaps Holl and Hyman are. But if that were true we wouldn't be first place with only 4.25 million worth of players earning their salary.

Marner is worth his contract based on his play today compared to the start of last season.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Thread is full and veering OT