All Purpose Mitch Marner Talk II

[hotpaws]

We have seen Dubas like to give those major signing bonuses which all 31 teams can do and it's is completely different than that no state advantage the Lighting have used.

few teams can afford to give these huge signing bonuses and few teams can line up endorsements like the Leafs can but few if any GM's would have not used these advantages to at least get there guys to sign without setting a new high water mark for contracts

 

[BAM]

Mathews - you can't just brush over the length of his deal like it's a minor factor , McD/Eichel got the cap % they did because they signed for the full 8yrs , knocking 3 yrs off the term should have lowered his cap hit to around 9-9.5m , Do you see anyone trying argue Marner should have signed for the same money Point did and brushing off the fact that Point like Mathews signed for 3 yrs less term ?

it's also funny how people flip back and forth when trying to defend these deals

Panarin/JT - one's a center while the other is a winger
Marner/Aho - no mention of position

Mathews is all g/60 which is why he deserves to get paid more than players than rack up assists

Marner it's now all about raw points

and the best is the no state tax which no one has come up with a reason why only Tampa benefits from this while the rest of the teams with no state tax still pay market price

Why are you using arguments you've had with other people on this site with me as if I used those same arguments? I don't. I don't even use g/60 when discussing these things.

Why did Panarin make more than Tavares in UFA? Is New York a tax-haven now too?

This is literally your act. Ignore everything in a post and go off on a tangent about what others have said to you despite the person you're actually discussing the topic with never having said those things.

Trust me you better be more informed if this is the route you wanna take.

 

[LeafsNation75]

What was the point of asking what Kucherov would get on the open market if you're just going to ignore it and Panarin's contract in NY LMFAO

Honestly until you mentioned Panarin's contract with the Rangers I forgot about it and it's a good point.

 

[LeafsNation75]

few teams can afford to give these huge signing bonuses and few teams can line up endorsements like the Leafs can but few if any GM's would have not used these advantages to at least get there guys to sign without setting a new high water mark for contracts

The difference is all 31 teams can give signing bonuses if they want to. However only the major market teams like the Leafs and Rangers can afford to do something like that. So it's an advantage available to everyone, where as the no state tax is only for the Lightning and Panthers to use when trying to sign UFA's.

 

[Notsince67]

I never said Marner was a team anchor. I just wish he re-signed for under $10 million.

We know.
I wish for 5

 

[hotpaws]

Why are you using arguments you've had with other people on this site with me as if I used those same arguments? I don't. I don't even use g/60 when discussing these things.

Why did Panarin make more than Tavares in UFA? Is New York a tax-haven now too?

This is literally your act. Ignore everything in a post and go off on a tangent about what others have said to you despite the person you're actually discussing the topic with never having said those things.

Trust me you better be more informed if this is the route you wanna take.

nice attempt at deflection , so i'll limit my reply to one point

why did you brush off the term of Mathews deal like it was some minor factor in contract negotiations ?

McDavid - 12.5 x 8
Eichel - 10 x 8
Mathews - 11.63 x 5

Marner - 10.893 x 6
Point - 6.75 x 3

do you want me to argue that Marner should have signed for the same money as Point and brush aside the term like you did when you tried to justify that Mathews deal is in line with his comparable's ?

 

[Papi 4 Hart]

What did Kucherov's trophy case look like at 22?

At 23?
At 24?

Hint...the same as Marner's...

What did Kucherov's production look from 20-24...Worse than Marner's...

Some of the fans of this team deserve the days of Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, Grabovski with their blind worshipping of other team's players that have already peaked and comparing that to Leaf stars and what they've done before turning 23.

Where did I mention age?

Kucherov is a top 5 player in the league. Marner is maybe top 20.

 

[hotpaws]

The difference is all 31 teams can give signing bonuses if they want to. However only the major market teams like the Leafs and Rangers can afford to do something like that. So it's an advantage available to everyone, where as the no state tax is only for the Lightning and Panthers to use when trying to sign UFA's.

it's not an advantage if you can't afford to give the bonuses

also different teams have different advantages

- no state tax - Tampa/Florida/Nashville/Dallas/Vegas and soon to be Seattle , but it's only Tampa that has had there players take discounts and not all have like Vasilevskiy and few players as demonstrated if any believe that the team should only benefit by them taking a reduced contract to to there being no state tax

also Pitt/Philly only have a 3% state tax so very little difference and players have to pay tax where the games are played which also gets ignored

- some of the teams are rich enough to be able to give bonuses

- some markets are much more attractive than others , NY compared to Edm

- cost of living , much cheaper to live in Carolina than NY or LA but this doesn't seem to matter when players decide where they want to play

- added benefits like the Leafs being able to line up endorsements

there's a lot of factors that go into what a player signs for but for some reason the only one that gets mentioned is that Tampa has no state tax

 

[Dekes For Days]

You said Chicago always defeated teams who they better than.

No I didn't. I didn't say anything about any other year. I said that prior to Kane signing, Chicago had only defeated teams that were worse than the teams Toronto had faced prior to Marner signing. Team accomplishments are not a factor here in the first place, but even if they were, Chicago's supposed "accomplishments" in 2008-2009 were not really any more impressive than what Toronto had done.

 

[LeafsNation75]

No I didn't. I didn't say anything about any other year. I said that prior to Kane signing, Chicago had only defeated teams that were worse than the teams Toronto had faced prior to Marner signing. Team accomplishments are not a factor here in the first place, but even if they were, Chicago's supposed "accomplishments" in 2008-2009 were not really any more impressive than what Toronto had done.

You said Chicago when they won always defeated teams who were not as good compared to them. I proved that in 2010 and 2015 they did defeat teams who had better records in the regular season and home ice advantage in those series.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You said Chicago when they won always defeated teams who were not as good compared to them.

Once again, no I did not. We were discussing what Marner and Kane had done in the playoffs prior to signing. For Kane, that means only the 2009 playoffs, and for Marner, that means the 2017, 2018, and 2019 playoffs. What Marner had done in the playoffs was actually more impressive.

Then, you started claiming that because Chicago won rounds in 2009, that automatically meant Kane was better than Marner. I pointed out that not only can you not evaluate individuals by team accomplishments, but also the teams Chicago beat that year (Calgary and Vancouver) were worse teams than the ones Toronto had faced (Washington, Boston, Boston). When Chicago faced a similar team to what Toronto had faced (Detroit), Kane did not play well, and Chicago lost in 5.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

nice attempt at deflection , so i'll limit my reply to one point

why did you brush off the term of Mathews deal like it was some minor factor in contract negotiations ?

McDavid - 12.5 x 8
Eichel - 10 x 8
Mathews - 11.63 x 5

Marner - 10.893 x 6
Point - 6.75 x 3

do you want me to argue that Marner should have signed for the same money as Point and brush aside the term like you did when you tried to justify that Mathews deal is in line with his comparable's ?

I bring this point up often, and it always gets ignored or sidestepped. Get ready for some spin.

I know dekes argument is that Matthews deserved 13-14x8 (not a joke) so 11.6x5 makes sense. That was actually an argument that was made recently.

 

[Antropovsky]

I think its interesting when I think it was Anderson was asked about defending Marner... or maybe it was someone else. Anyways they just said you have to be wary of him because he always has something crafty up his sleeve but strength will never be part of his game". It wasnt "got to watch out for his great shot, his incredible speed"

Anyways it seemed to be an underwhelming evaluation of a "superstar" player. We will see this year.... if he has been found out. I do dislike however how he always gets the elite linemates. Matthews on the other hand proved his value while having Marleau, Kaps. Ennis as linemates. Does anyone think that Marner would look like a star with Ennis and Kapanen type linemates?

 

[SlpLessInMuskoka18]

Was Kane playing 130 + minutes of PK too? A year or what

Some of you guys are funny.. and just out right deny facts..

What do you think happens to a guys offensive stats when energy and time is being consumed in purely defensive moments through a 60 minute portion of time.

Matty will now be hard pressed to get 25 goals if he's consuming Mitchy's pk time. This year..

 

[hotpaws]

I bring this point up often, and it always gets ignored or sidestepped. Get ready for some spin.

I know dekes argument is that Matthews deserved 13-14x8 (not a joke) so 11.6x5 makes sense. That was actually an argument that was made recently.

yup the conversation always ends when they don't know how to spin there way out of it

good ole Deke told me Kane's deal coming off his ELC was Marner's comparable and that Marner's contract was justified because he was worth 2m more than what would have been Kane's cap hit as % of cap

 

[Gary Nylund]

I bring this point up often, and it always gets ignored or sidestepped. Get ready for some spin.

I know dekes argument is that Matthews deserved 13-14x8 (not a joke) so 11.6x5 makes sense. That was actually an argument that was made recently.

LOL WUT? Using imaginary non-existent contracts to frame an argument, well that's ... creative.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Once again, no I did not. We were discussing what Marner and Kane had done in the playoffs prior to signing. For Kane, that means only the 2009 playoffs, and for Marner, that means the 2017, 2018, and 2019 playoffs. What Marner had done in the playoffs was actually more impressive.

Then, you started claiming that because Chicago won rounds in 2009, that automatically meant Kane was better than Marner. I pointed out that not only can you not evaluate individuals by team accomplishments, but also the teams Chicago beat that year (Calgary and Vancouver) were worse teams than the ones Toronto had faced (Washington, Boston, Boston). When Chicago faced a similar team to what Toronto had faced (Detroit), Kane did not play well, and Chicago lost in 5.

You are conveniently ignroing that Chicago still played a better team in San Jose during the 2010 Western Conference Final.

Plus besides facing a better team when they played Tampa Bay in the 2015 Stanley Cup Final, I forgot that when they defeated Anaheim in the 2015 Western Conference Final, the Ducks had a better record.

So I don't care about 2009 and Chicago being better than Calgary and Vancouver just because they lost to a better Detroit team.

 

[LeafsNation75]

it's not an advantage if you can't afford to give the bonuses

also different teams have different advantages

- no state tax - Tampa/Florida/Nashville/Dallas/Vegas and soon to be Seattle , but it's only Tampa that has had there players take discounts and not all have like Vasilevskiy and few players as demonstrated if any believe that the team should only benefit by them taking a reduced contract to to there being no state tax

also Pitt/Philly only have a 3% state tax so very little difference and players have to pay tax where the games are played which also gets ignored

- some of the teams are rich enough to be able to give bonuses

- some markets are much more attractive than others , NY compared to Edm

- cost of living , much cheaper to live in Carolina than NY or LA but this doesn't seem to matter when players decide where they want to play

- added benefits like the Leafs being able to line up endorsements

there's a lot of factors that go into what a player signs for but for some reason the only one that gets mentioned is that Tampa has no state tax

For me personally it comes down to this. I know that not all 31 teams can give signing bonuses, however it's an option available for them if they want to.

The Lightning, Panthers, Predators, Stars, Golden Knights, and Kraken once they begin their inaugural season, are the only teams who can take advantage of no state tax which other NHL teams can not. So in that example it's not an even playing field.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

For me personally it comes down to this. I know that not all 31 teams can give signing bonuses, however it's an option available for them if they want to.

The Lightning, Panthers, Predators, Stars, Golden Knights, and Kraken once they begin their inaugural season, are the only teams who can take advantage of no state tax which other NHL teams can not. So in that example it's not an even playing field.

Did teams like Toronto have a financial advantage over poor teams pre cap?

 

[BAM]

Where did I mention age?

Kucherov is a top 5 player in the league. Marner is maybe top 20.

And at Marner's age, Kucherov wasn't top 50.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Did teams like Toronto have a financial advantage over poor teams pre cap?

Toronto did have an advantage, however they rarely were able to sign the big name UFA's between 1998 - 2004, with the exception of Curtis Joseph and maybe Alexander Mogilny. It was usually other big markets like the Red Wings, Flyers, Rangers, Avalanche, and Stars who spent more money on UFA's than the Maple Leafs.

 

[Notsince67]

I think its interesting when I think it was Anderson was asked about defending Marner... or maybe it was someone else. Anyways they just said you have to be wary of him because he always has something crafty up his sleeve but strength will never be part of his game". It wasnt "got to watch out for his great shot, his incredible speed"

Anyways it seemed to be an underwhelming evaluation of a "superstar" player. We will see this year.... if he has been found out. I do dislike however how he always gets the elite linemates. Matthews on the other hand proved his value while having Marleau, Kaps. Ennis as linemates. Does anyone think that Marner would look like a star with Ennis and Kapanen type linemates?

You are fking kidding right?

 

[Dekes For Days]

You are conveniently ignroing that Chicago still played a better team in San Jose during the 2010 Western Conference Final. Plus besides facing a better team when they played Tampa Bay in the 2015 Stanley Cup Final, I forgot that when they defeated Anaheim in the 2015 Western Conference Final, the Ducks had a better record.

I'm not ignoring anything. Your examples just aren't relevant to our discussion. They occurred after Kane had signed. Our discussion was about what he had done prior to signing.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I'm not ignoring anything. Your examples just aren't relevant to our discussion. They occurred after Kane had signed. Our discussion was about what he had done prior to signing.

Here is the way I see it. Don't say how Chicago defeated easier opponents when they defeated teams ahead of them in the 2010 Western Conference Final, 2015 Western Conference Final, and 2015 Stanley Cup Final and not expect to get called out on something like that.

You were correct that Toronto had tougher opponents in 2017 against Washington, along with 2018 and 2019 against Boston.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Toronto did have an advantage, however they rarely were able to sign the big name UFA's between 1998 - 2004, with the exception of Curtis Joseph and maybe Alexander Mogilny. It was usually other big markets like the Red Wings, Flyers, Rangers, Avalanche, and Stars who spent more money on UFA's than the Maple Leafs.

Your argument seems to be that signing bonuses aren't an advantage because "any team can theoretically offer them". Well, pre cap, any team can "theoretically" spend $100 mil on their team. So does that mean Toronto had no financial advantage pre cap?