Player Discussion All Purpose Goaltending Thread

[Chainshot]

that's cool. I'd seen him play in the premier league.

Someone at Northeastern seems to like it too.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Answer to the question about how you scout goalies, etc.

At the youth levels, prior to juniors, you're looking for physical traits as well as the baseline mental traits. It's takes time because the kids grow at such different rates and times. But it's pretty simple at that level. My own criteria is coachability. It's a hard position, the kid needs to be capable of growth.

At the junior level, you start to look at the ability to mentally read and react to shooters in that age bracket. Technique starts to really matter here. Goalies with bad form can still save pucks in youth hockey. Not so much in juniors. Coachability becomes even more important here, because they have to begin to perfect technique they have learned.

There's some overlap with NCAA goalies between juniors and lower levels of pro goalies.

ECHL, SHL, Liiga, AHL goalies: you start to look for the ability to mentally match you opposition. You assume that if the goalie is at this level, techniques are simply being fine-tuned. But the goalies have to really pay attention to the mental side of the game. It's why you can see an ultra-talented goalie like UPL win OHL player of the year, and then struggle in Rochester. The physical talent is there.

What you look for in these leagues is the ability to rebound from a mistake, the ability to adjust goaltending to style of play of the opposition, the ability to be in the position to make a save prior to the shooter having the puck ready. It's all mental.

At the NHL level, it's all modifying your game for the opponent. Teams play different, and using one goaltending style won't work for 82 games against 31 teams. Matt Murray never adjusted his game, so once teams figured his style out, they took advantage. It's how you go from 2xCup winning goaltender who was a huge part of the Pens' teams, to traded as a cap dump twice.

Part of the reason fans have such a difficult time assessing pro goalies is because it's 95% mental. And we don't get to be part of it, we just see the outcome. But a solid pro goalie has to adjust his style to the team he plays. So UPL, coming to the NHL, had to adjust for game speed, and then adjust by team. A team like Boston plays a lot different than a team like Colorado. So you have to adjust parts of your game.

This part is really tough. It's why there's only a handful of elite goalies as any one time. And right now, goalies are in the midst of a significant technique change, where goalies used to be more blockers. With shooters being so athletic now, and the concept of the royal road being used by teams, movement is now paramount for goalies. And that also plays into the mental side significantly.

Hope this helps. Goalies aren't voodoo. It's just mental and fans don't get to see that part.

 

[JLewyB]

Not by as big a margin as you'd expect.

View attachment 633630

Huh. Weird. Comrie is bottom 10 in the league and the other 2 are above average.

 

[Zman5778]

Not by as big a margin as you'd expect.

View attachment 633630

OK. This to me seals that whatever site this is -- their definition of "Expected goals" needs an overhaul.

There is zero way you will ever convince me that in 1 fewer game played that Comrie has seen FOURTEEN fewer expected goals. No way. Especially given how absolutely under siege he was in Edmonton, Calgary, Vegas, Seattle (part 1) and Tampa (part 1).

 

[joshjull]

OK. This to me seals that whatever site this is -- their definition of "Expected goals" needs an overhaul.

There is zero way you will ever convince me that in 1 fewer game played that Comrie has seen FOURTEEN fewer expected goals. No way. Especially given how absolutely under siege he was in Edmonton, Calgary, Vegas, Seattle (part 1) and Tampa (part 1).

Looks like moneypuck.

 

[oldgoalie]

Answer to the question about how you scout goalies, etc.

At the youth levels, prior to juniors, you're looking for physical traits as well as the baseline mental traits. It's takes time because the kids grow at such different rates and times. But it's pretty simple at that level. My own criteria is coachability. It's a hard position, the kid needs to be capable of growth.

At the junior level, you start to look at the ability to mentally read and react to shooters in that age bracket. Technique starts to really matter here. Goalies with bad form can still save pucks in youth hockey. Not so much in juniors. Coachability becomes even more important here, because they have to begin to perfect technique they have learned.

There's some overlap with NCAA goalies between juniors and lower levels of pro goalies.

ECHL, SHL, Liiga, AHL goalies: you start to look for the ability to mentally match you opposition. You assume that if the goalie is at this level, techniques are simply being fine-tuned. But the goalies have to really pay attention to the mental side of the game. It's why you can see an ultra-talented goalie like UPL win OHL player of the year, and then struggle in Rochester. The physical talent is there.

What you look for in these leagues is the ability to rebound from a mistake, the ability to adjust goaltending to style of play of the opposition, the ability to be in the position to make a save prior to the shooter having the puck ready. It's all mental.

At the NHL level, it's all modifying your game for the opponent. Teams play different, and using one goaltending style won't work for 82 games against 31 teams. Matt Murray never adjusted his game, so once teams figured his style out, they took advantage. It's how you go from 2xCup winning goaltender who was a huge part of the Pens' teams, to traded as a cap dump twice.

Part of the reason fans have such a difficult time assessing pro goalies is because it's 95% mental. And we don't get to be part of it, we just see the outcome. But a solid pro goalie has to adjust his style to the team he plays. So UPL, coming to the NHL, had to adjust for game speed, and then adjust by team. A team like Boston plays a lot different than a team like Colorado. So you have to adjust parts of your game.

This part is really tough. It's why there's only a handful of elite goalies as any one time. And right now, goalies are in the midst of a significant technique change, where goalies used to be more blockers. With shooters being so athletic now, and the concept of the royal road being used by teams, movement is now paramount for goalies. And that also plays into the mental side significantly.

Hope this helps. Goalies aren't voodoo. It's just mental and fans don't get to see that part.

Fantastic post.

 

[WhereAreTheCookies]

OK. This to me seals that whatever site this is -- their definition of "Expected goals" needs an overhaul.

There is zero way you will ever convince me that in 1 fewer game played that Comrie has seen FOURTEEN fewer expected goals. No way. Especially given how absolutely under siege he was in Edmonton, Calgary, Vegas, Seattle (part 1) and Tampa (part 1).

As under siege as he was in those games there are other games that offset those metrics like the Vegas game where his expected goals against was 3.5 and he allowed 6 or the Yotes game where he allowed 3 but the expected was less than 2. No it's not an exact science, but it's based on where the shots are taken from and the probability of being scored on from those locations.

Also the expected goals for Edmonton in that game was 5.25 and Comrie only allowed 2.

 

[Chainshot]

As under siege as he was in those games there are other games that offset those metrics like the Vegas game where his expected goals against was 3.5 and he allowed 6 or the Yotes game where he allowed 3 but the expected was less than 2. No it's not an exact science, but it's based on where the shots are taken from and the probability of being scored on from those locations.

Also the expected goals for Edmonton in that game was 5.25 and Comrie only allowed 2.

The Vegas game where he stopped 6 out of 8 breakaways or 2-on-1's had a lower xGF than the Edmonton game? Fascinating.

 

[dortt]

The Vegas game where he stopped 6 out of 8 breakaways or 2-on-1's had a lower xGF than the Edmonton game? Fascinating.

I wonder if that site is only using where the shots are taken from and not taking into consideration the circumstances of the shots

 

[K8fool]

As under siege as he was in those games there are other games that offset those metrics like the Vegas game where his expected goals against was 3.5 and he allowed 6 or the Yotes game where he allowed 3 but the expected was less than 2. No it's not an exact science, but it's based on where the shots are taken from and the probability of being scored on from those locations.

Also the expected goals for Edmonton in that game was 5.25 and Comrie only allowed 2.

This board should have a lot of love for comrie as well as even more for upl. Was fluery always that demonstrative and confident in a sport with more bad bouces , puck luck as well as talented shooters feasting on any new weakness (Hutton)

Our whole organization is lucky too have Anderson and okposo to be kind or direct to the many fragile personalities of the youth , or those that haven't proven themselves yet in league.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Answer to the question about how you scout goalies, etc.

At the youth levels, prior to juniors, you're looking for physical traits as well as the baseline mental traits. It's takes time because the kids grow at such different rates and times. But it's pretty simple at that level. My own criteria is coachability. It's a hard position, the kid needs to be capable of growth.

At the junior level, you start to look at the ability to mentally read and react to shooters in that age bracket. Technique starts to really matter here. Goalies with bad form can still save pucks in youth hockey. Not so much in juniors. Coachability becomes even more important here, because they have to begin to perfect technique they have learned.

There's some overlap with NCAA goalies between juniors and lower levels of pro goalies.

ECHL, SHL, Liiga, AHL goalies: you start to look for the ability to mentally match you opposition. You assume that if the goalie is at this level, techniques are simply being fine-tuned. But the goalies have to really pay attention to the mental side of the game. It's why you can see an ultra-talented goalie like UPL win OHL player of the year, and then struggle in Rochester. The physical talent is there.

What you look for in these leagues is the ability to rebound from a mistake, the ability to adjust goaltending to style of play of the opposition, the ability to be in the position to make a save prior to the shooter having the puck ready. It's all mental.

At the NHL level, it's all modifying your game for the opponent. Teams play different, and using one goaltending style won't work for 82 games against 31 teams. Matt Murray never adjusted his game, so once teams figured his style out, they took advantage. It's how you go from 2xCup winning goaltender who was a huge part of the Pens' teams, to traded as a cap dump twice.

Part of the reason fans have such a difficult time assessing pro goalies is because it's 95% mental. And we don't get to be part of it, we just see the outcome. But a solid pro goalie has to adjust his style to the team he plays. So UPL, coming to the NHL, had to adjust for game speed, and then adjust by team. A team like Boston plays a lot different than a team like Colorado. So you have to adjust parts of your game.

This part is really tough. It's why there's only a handful of elite goalies as any one time. And right now, goalies are in the midst of a significant technique change, where goalies used to be more blockers. With shooters being so athletic now, and the concept of the royal road being used by teams, movement is now paramount for goalies. And that also plays into the mental side significantly.

Hope this helps. Goalies aren't voodoo. It's just mental and fans don't get to see that part.

Thanks! Definitely gonna bookmark this one

 

[zenthusiast]

The Vegas game where he stopped 6 out of 8 breakaways or 2-on-1's had a lower xGF than the Edmonton game? Fascinating.

Keep several shakers of salt on hand when delving into the world of hockey analytics

 

[Ehran]

Keep several shakers of salt on hand when delving into the world of hockey analytics

Analytics is only as good as the data available.

 

[Fezzy126]

The xGF stats assign the same weight of a missed shot to a blocked shot to a corner snipe. It also doesn't capture shooter talent, so if Ovie and Girgensons take the exact same shot, it carries the exact same value.

Anyway, a shot that occurs when a pass immediately precedes it carries a much heavier xGF value than just a shot event. So in many cases a breakaway will have a lower xGF value than a rebound or cross slot pass to shot, even substantially so. Two identical 2-on-1's can have substantially different xGF values depending on where the shot was taken and whether there was a pass before hand.

That's why sample size is so important, and neither of our goalies have played anywhere near enough minutes for those numbers to meaningful. The best one could say is "so far player x is performing above/below expectations", with the caveat that there are no real conclusions to be made yet.

Remember Hammond's magical run with the Sens? Sample size...

 

[Der Jaeger]

Thanks! Definitely gonna bookmark this one

Thanks!

Some more explanation for the mental game at the pro level. A pro goalie has to know:

- how his own team plays
- how the opponent plays
- who is on the ice

Imagine being Ullmark. He knows his own team plays a solid 5-on-a-dye defensive structure and rarely allows inside shots. So, in general, he can play out of his crease more.

Boston plays the Islanders. NY plays a very simple game of getting shots and having a net front presence. So Ullmark is going to really need to focus on rebound control. He’s pretty confident that the team structure will allow him to play at the desired depth.

Boston plays Buffalo. Buffalo is a speed team that likes to pass, but they’ve got a grind line or two. And Dahlin and Power can really move the puck. So Ullmark may elect to play at a more conservative depth, particularly when the Thompson and Cozens s lines are on the ice. He may also elect to make less butterfly saves and sliding so he can stay on his feet. But, when the Jost and Krebs lines are out, he also may elect to return to normal depth, and play normally.

Ullmark may also elect to cover the puck more against the Sabres top two lines in an attempt to get lines changes. He may elect to kick more pucks out against the bottom two lines.

Lots to think about as a goalie.

 

[zenthusiast]

Analytics is only as good as the data available.

Well, the people processing the data have a pretty big role too

 

[Chainshot]

Just to make things murkier - Malcolm Subban now with a .916 save percentage and sub 3.00 GAA in Rochester with 7 straight wins.

 

[Irie]

Huh. Weird. Comrie is bottom 10 in the league and the other 2 are above average.

Not really when you take into account that Comrie got most of the starts when Sammy was out.

That was a dark time for Goalie stats.

 

[dortt]

Just to make things murkier - Malcolm Subban now with a .916 save percentage and sub 3.00 GAA in Rochester with 7 straight wins.

wasn't he decent when he was up last year before he got hurt?

Also, anyone have word if UPL is over his illness and if he's playing tonight?

 

[Chainshot]

wasn't he decent when he was up last year before he got hurt?

Also, anyone have word if UPL is over his illness and if he's playing tonight?

Haven't heard about Luukkonen's health, though I would be surprised if Comrie doesn't get the crease against his old team.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

Two weeks ago Comrie couldn’t come back quick enough because 6K sucked. Amazing how now that’s flipped, but it’s not that much of a surprise.

 

[Jim Bob]

Answer to the question about how you scout goalies, etc.

At the youth levels, prior to juniors, you're looking for physical traits as well as the baseline mental traits. It's takes time because the kids grow at such different rates and times. But it's pretty simple at that level. My own criteria is coachability. It's a hard position, the kid needs to be capable of growth.

At the junior level, you start to look at the ability to mentally read and react to shooters in that age bracket. Technique starts to really matter here. Goalies with bad form can still save pucks in youth hockey. Not so much in juniors. Coachability becomes even more important here, because they have to begin to perfect technique they have learned.

There's some overlap with NCAA goalies between juniors and lower levels of pro goalies.

ECHL, SHL, Liiga, AHL goalies: you start to look for the ability to mentally match you opposition. You assume that if the goalie is at this level, techniques are simply being fine-tuned. But the goalies have to really pay attention to the mental side of the game. It's why you can see an ultra-talented goalie like UPL win OHL player of the year, and then struggle in Rochester. The physical talent is there.

What you look for in these leagues is the ability to rebound from a mistake, the ability to adjust goaltending to style of play of the opposition, the ability to be in the position to make a save prior to the shooter having the puck ready. It's all mental.

At the NHL level, it's all modifying your game for the opponent. Teams play different, and using one goaltending style won't work for 82 games against 31 teams. Matt Murray never adjusted his game, so once teams figured his style out, they took advantage. It's how you go from 2xCup winning goaltender who was a huge part of the Pens' teams, to traded as a cap dump twice.

Part of the reason fans have such a difficult time assessing pro goalies is because it's 95% mental. And we don't get to be part of it, we just see the outcome. But a solid pro goalie has to adjust his style to the team he plays. So UPL, coming to the NHL, had to adjust for game speed, and then adjust by team. A team like Boston plays a lot different than a team like Colorado. So you have to adjust parts of your game.

This part is really tough. It's why there's only a handful of elite goalies as any one time. And right now, goalies are in the midst of a significant technique change, where goalies used to be more blockers. With shooters being so athletic now, and the concept of the royal road being used by teams, movement is now paramount for goalies. And that also plays into the mental side significantly.

Hope this helps. Goalies aren't voodoo. It's just mental and fans don't get to see that part.

This is a decade old and I am sure there are plenty of things to modify since the position has changed a lot since then. But, it talks to the complexity of the position and all the various elements that it takes to be a good goalie.

 

[oldgoalie]

This is a decade old and I am sure there are plenty of things to modify since the position has changed a lot since then. But, it talks to the complexity of the position and all the various elements that it takes to be a good goalie.

never saw this before. very cool!

 

[Jim Bob]

never saw this before. very cool!

Justin has put out a bunch of good stuff over the years.

 

[Jim Bob]