All Encompassing Coaching and Glen Cigar Thread Part V

[BBKers]

You're doing very little here to actually back up how you and why you think this will magically happen if we get a different coach, but alright.

You asked a question and I answered it as a yes or no question

Now you ask me to elaborate

Fine

I think John Tortorella is a coach that can do certain things at certain times during a teams development. If a team has lost identity or faith in a system (Renny redux) I think he can be a fresh wind of change that can induce some positive attributes in such a situation. As was the case with NYR when he took over. I long was hesitant to firing Renney but the last three months I was definitely on the bandwagon. His time had come. As they always do.
A reminder of this is that 4 out of the 6 last Jack Adams winners have been fired since the first lockout. "What have you done for me lately" certainly seems to reign throughout the league - even amongst coaches and teams that have had considerably higher success rate than our sacred "last years Jack Adams nominee".
Regarding play and system. The system Tortorella preaches is imo one of anti hockey at its best. Last years success was - I admit - fun to watch at times during the regular season as everybody got into the whole gimmick and it lead to a couple of entertaining venues. But mostly what was appealing was the winning, not the hockey played in itself. I like both NA hockey and Euro hockey but believe the strongest concept is when you employ both of these differing systems strengths into one hockey philosophy. As the sport is about winning, well, I accepted the results before the play. Let us remember that we not only had a Vezina finalist last year - no - but a Vezina winner. That had a lot to do with the Adams nomination.
Come playoffs the team was gassed an the system was exposed. Torts recklessly rode his troops into the ground by wearing down the thin squad by overplaying his favourite guys. The six goalie system took is toll and the system and the fear of reprecussions in doing wrong - which is the real reason for the abyssmal PP - showed through in oh so many ways. Lunqvists and only Lundqvists stellar play can be attributed to last years PO success. We were the lousier team on the ice (not before the Boyle mugging though where I seriously thought we could have used a John Scott retaliation but Torts was yellow) in almost every game. And it was extremely non creative hockey.
Torts system is from a different time and age. As is his mind frame. The dictator mentality wears thin on players, as does the classless abrassiveness. I personally know a player that won with him once and well his words are not the kindest ones when it comes to Johnny cakes tactics or character. He did say he treats everyone the same though. Like sheet. And then he laughed. He basically also said they won in Tampa despite the coach, not because of him. And they had a goalie that went on an insane PO run. Hmm sound familiar? I also know for a fact that our Vezina winner is not impressed with Johnny Cakes as a coach.
Guy is a classless pos IMO but if they would win and play somewhat entertaining hockey I would care less. The system he employs is truly stoneage hockey and it is time for someone - basically anyone - to get a chance with this "flawed" team...
I am not going to go into details of his tactical weaknesses nor the recipe for how this could be alleviated as this has been beat to death here for years by myself and a rapidly growing contingent of the entire sane NYR fan base...

 

[Kel Varnsen]

This is a CAP league. You're not going to get a much better roster than what you currently have.

Fact is, talent wise, New York is easily in the top 10.

Absolving the coaching staff and laying all blame on the players is idiotic.

The Nash trade was BAD for our cap. And no, we're not easily top ten talent wise right now. We're very top heavy, and our top guys are ******** the bed right now.

 

[haveandare]

He coached the team to the ECF last year. This year, after massive roster turnover to start the season and then again midway through, while missing the best defender and having the supposed first line center completely lose his ability to play, he's coached the team to the second round where they may lose against a superior team. Torts has his flaws for sure, but I'm not convinced that a new coach, especially Ruff or AV, is going to do better than that.

 

[BroadwayStorm]

While I think the roster IS a little overrated it is also his terrible use of lines. I mean what is Callahan doing in the first? Even the second? But seriously, if were gonna be all meat and potatoes that effing powerplay HAS to be our bread and butter offensively. Not just be decent. It must be a STRENGTH if we are going to stay a grind it out dump and chance trapping team. Otherwise we are never going to score no matter what players we bring. At the same time why do people have to be extremists? Why can't we be more balanced? Why must we exclusively sacrifice grit for skill and vice versa when a simpler system can merge those two styles. Some of you people underrate and overrate our players. We have enough talent to win a Stanley Cup at full strength there is no doubt in my mind, specially with the goalie. But that PP has to change. That system HAS to change and it does not have to sacrifice grit, sacrifice or badassery in the process.

 

[JohnC]

He coached the team to the ECF last year. This year, after massive roster turnover to start the season and then again midway through, while missing the best defender and having the supposed first line center completely lose his ability to play, he's coached the team to the second round where they may lose against a superior team. Torts has his flaws for sure, but I'm not convinced that a new coach, especially Ruff or AV, is going to do better than that.

Not even Paul MacLean?

 

[InHenrikWeTrust]

You asked a question and I answered it as a yes or no question

Now you ask me to elaborate

Fine

I think John Tortorella is a coach that can do certain things at certain times during a teams development. If a team has lost identity or faith in a system (Renny redux) I think he can be a fresh wind of change that can induce some positive attributes in such a situation. As was the case with NYR when he took over. I long was hesitant to firing Renney but the last three months I was definitely on the bandwagon. His time had come. As they always do.
A reminder of this is that 4 out of the 6 last Jack Adams winners have been fired since the first lockout. "What have you done for me lately" certainly seems to reign throughout the league - even amongst coaches and teams that have had considerably higher success rate than our sacred "last years Jack Adams nominee".
Regarding play and system. The system Tortorella preaches is imo one of anti hockey at its best. Last years success was - I admit - fun to watch at times during the regular season as everybody got into the whole gimmick and it lead to a couple of entertaining venues. But mostly what was appealing was the winning, not the hockey played in itself. I like both NA hockey and Euro hockey but believe the strongest concept is when you employ both of these differing systems strengths into one hockey philosophy. As the sport is about winning, well, I accepted the results before the play. Let us remember that we not only had a Vezina finalist last year - no - but a Vezina winner. That had a lot to do with the Adams nomination.
Come playoffs the team was gassed an the system was exposed. Torts recklessly rode his troops into the ground by wearing down the thin squad by overplaying his favourite guys. The six goalie system took is toll and the system and the fear of reprecussions in doing wrong - which is the real reason for the abyssmal PP - showed through in oh so many ways. Lunqvists and only Lundqvists stellar play can be attributed to last years PO success. We were the lousier team on the ice (not before the Boyle mugging though where I seriously thought we could have used a John Scott retaliation but Torts was yellow) in almost every game. And it was extremely non creative hockey.
Torts system is from a different time and age. As is his mind frame. The dictator mentality wears thin on players, as does the classless abrassiveness. I personally know a player that won with him once and well his words are not the kindest ones when it comes to Johnny cakes tactics or character. He did say he treats everyone the same though. Like sheet. And then he laughed. He basically also said they won in Tampa despite the coach, not because of him. And they had a goalie that went on an insane PO run. Hmm sound familiar? I also know for a fact that our Vezina winner is not impressed with Johnny Cakes as a coach.
Guy is a classless pos IMO but if they would win and play somewhat entertaining hockey I would care less. The system he employs is truly stoneage hockey and it is time for someone - basically anyone - to get a chance with this "flawed" team...
I am not going to go into details of his tactical weaknesses nor the recipe for how this could be alleviated as this has been beat to death here for years by myself and a rapidly growing contingent of the entire sane NYR fan base...

Well said. Torts philosophy has run its course. The talent we have yearns for open ice offensive minded hockey.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I love it how people say we should be built like the Bruins with tons of depth. How many teams are built with tons of depth and little high end power, or how many of those are successful? The Bruins are unique in that. All I remember is people *****ing last year about the lack of high end talent, now we don't need it? People just need reasons to *****. Teams need high end talent to win. The Bruins are an exception and not the rule and even then Bergeron and Kreijci are a great 1-2 punch. Kreijci is one of the top point producers in the playoffs.

All those people were wrong. I was never one of them. The thing with the Bruins is they have so many guys who could be a one time or another their best forward. So this playoffs it's probably been Kreijci, another block of games it can be Bergeron, another time it could be Lucic, or Horton, or Seguin, etc. That's how you win without a few "elite" players, and that model is good for sustained success year to year and game to game because it doesn't put all the eggs in one basket. We had some of that last year. We moved guys like Anisimov, Richards, Dubinsky, Hagelin, Stepan, Callahan, Feds, even guys like Prust and Boyle to a lesser extent (3rd or 4th) up and down the lineup based on who was hot and who wasn't.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I hope all you Tortorella haters are really ready to part ways with the guy, and the style of hockey he's developed for this team over the past few years.

Sure, it's not flashy offensive or West-coast style hockey, sure our PP has sucked this year.

But let's be honest.

I just think a lot of you are delusional about how good we'd be with a different coach and a more offensive system...Our players really aren't good enough offensively...and it's simple things, like we simply don't have enough people who can snipe and bury the puck, we don't have enough people who are stepping up, with killer instinct, and making plays. These things that you guys think will just magically change with a new coach, given our players, GOOD LUCK..

This team, isn't going to be able to change to an offensive system, and beat teams like Pittsburgh...Period. You guys are crazy. Torts made a team last year that honestly had no business getting that far, almost making the cup (how we let the Devils beat us last year, damn that slow ass fourth line).

Be a bit more rational here...I personally love the style of hockey Torts has brought for us the past few years...You should miss players like Duby, Prust, Arty, Fedo, and the Staal injury, and you should be mad at Nash for not manning up (are we going to hear that he's injured, I damn well hope so, although I think he's shown in spurts that he's not, and is just playing without confidence).

What happened to everyone and the style of hockey that we loved, Duby, Prust, Fedo, Arty, Callahan, out there knocking faces, and making it damn near impossible for teams like the Caps and Pittsburgh to score goals. We were a ****ing menace.

If you want to move towards a more offensive style of system, be my guest, I think it's a pipe dream, and I'm still more just mad at the fact that we ever traded those players away for Nash. If anything, we should've just traded Gaborik away for the players we got for him this season. Picking up another defenseman like Moore, adding what was honestly missing the most from last years team is someone like Brassard, and some MORE grit with Dorsett, and just getting rid of Gaborik. That's what should have happened, forget about Nash...People should honestly be furious at the Nash trade, given how well everyone played last year. And if you want to move towards a more offensive system, then for ****s sake, don't trade a player like Gaborik away....

Don't panic, get Staal back healthy, hope Nash doesn't play like a ****ing ***** and stays healthy, maybe get Clowe back for the right price, and just get the guy a different damn power play coach next season!!!

Exactly what I've said before, if we try to become Pittsburgh or Chicago we're just going to be beaten by Pittsburgh or Chicago who do their thing way better than we would be able to.

 

[3rdlineglory]

Exactly what I've said before, if we try to become Pittsburgh or Chicago we're just going to be beaten by Pittsburgh or Chicago who do their thing way better than we would be able to.

Lol we get owned by them under Torts anyway.

 

[MrEctions]

If youre going to let Torts go then you need a viable candidate to replace him. Who is out there?

AV - No Thanks
Paul Maurice - I would explore the option
Laviolette - If he becomes available
Ruff - Hell No
Dave Tippet - Nope

And then theres a slew of guys in the minor leagues/Europe to look at potentially.

I would be interested in Laviolette first, if he becomes available, and Maurice potentially as well.

 

[NYRCSKA*]

If youre going to let Torts go then you need a viable candidate to replace him. Who is out there?

AV - No Thanks
Paul Maurice - I would explore the option
Laviolette - If he becomes available
Ruff - Hell No
Dave Tippet - Nope

And then theres a slew of guys in the minor leagues/Europe to look at potentially.

I would be interested in Laviolette first, if he becomes available, and Maurice potentially as well.

Why do people in the East underestimate Tippett so much? That guy is the greatest at winning with absolutely nothing. Imagine what he'd do with a talented team! Tippett is the best coach in the league.

 

[JohnC]

People on the main board seem to be high on Dallas Eakins

Think he can be drawn in by the big city?

 

[Ola]

I can't wait to hear what you guys would be saying next year, if Torts gets fired and Nash plays like **** again.

Has Nash played like "****" to start with?

He was on pace for 80 pts and 40 goals in the regular season. And, while he of course deserves some blame for our PP (it was horrible before we got him and he has not been able to fix it), he was 6th in ES scoring and only two goals behind AO/Stamkos/Tavares.

In the PO's he has scored just as little as everyone else not named Brassard. If he is 100%, I think definitely that he has had a below avg PO's. He has been good in a handful of games maybe, and very avg in a handful of games.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

People on the main board seem to be high on Dallas Eakins

Think he can be drawn in by the big city?

I love him.

Would want him or Tippet.

 

[Ola]

If youre going to let Torts go then you need a viable candidate to replace him. Who is out there?

AV - No Thanks
Paul Maurice - I would explore the option
Laviolette - If he becomes available
Ruff - Hell No
Dave Tippet - Nope

And then theres a slew of guys in the minor leagues/Europe to look at potentially.

I would be interested in Laviolette first, if he becomes available, and Maurice potentially as well.

From my point of view, in the best of worlds, a ton of pressure is put on John Tortorella for our sheitty play this season. A ton of pressure. Tortorella and Sullivan figures out that we need to become more verstaile and just must win more momentum in games, just carry the play more, and change their approch some. And gets to give it one last go next season.

I like Torts in many areas. It think he for several reasons is a great fit in NY. But I just don't think the way we play right now, with our extreme approch when it comes to just getting the puck out of our own end and through the neutralzone instead of managing it better, gives a good chance to win in 2013. Especially not against better teams. I think Torts is a great coach who just coaches the team in the wrong direction. If he coached us in the right direction, he is probably one of the best options out there.

If we still only gets the same result next season, ie where we at best plays an extreme grinding game where we on good nights win 2-1 while shaving years of the lifeexpectancy of our players, while being the most boring team in the league, the timing just seem better for Slats to look for a replacement next summer. Richards can be bought out then too, while we have alot of UFA's, so a new coach will have more room to get the team he wants.

 

[Ola]

It's funny, I remember during the dark years people complaining about the team being too east west (especially the Czech line). Now people are complaining about north south. Seems like people just rag on the style that's in use when the team is not playing well.

I certainly didn't...

And another thing, many of those complaints where on the team being to east-west in the attacking zone, ie not shooting the puck.

Seriously though, look at how Boston's D's are moving the puck and compare how our D's are moving the puck. We play a diffrent game than Chicago or Detroit, so comparing us to them is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Boston is in the same mold as we are, they move the puck fast up ice. They have big wingers who you don't want heading up ice while a turnover is made on the redline. Their passing game is -- still -- on a diffrent planet then ours.

The game of hockey is fast and you do not have time to think on the ice. A coach does not draw up a play and then it is executed on the ice.

But the breakout from your own end is something every team practise every single practise. You don't practise anything else as much as that. After drilling in plays year after year after year, you get a transition game on the ice. Here is where we and Boston differs tremendously. We have one fundamental objective -- get the puck deep in the attacking without loosing it in the neutral zone, then go after the D's fetching the puck and force turnovers. Boston can make those plays. But they make a decision on the ice. About just as often as getting it low, they look for Bergeron/Marchand/& co in the neutralzone and puts pressure on you with the puck. That is a play that is not in our book. We challenge D's on the rush when we pick up a puck on the defensive blueline and can skate it up ice. Its extremely rare that our D's moves the puck to a forward in the netural zone who collects the puck and challenge the D's. This is a result of our playbook. Not due to talent or anything else.

 

[cd211]

grass isn't always greener with a new coach.. if i was picking a new coach it would be someone young and up coming.. get out of the mold of proven..

idk how people can hate on torts as much as everyone does.. he made ECF last yr and coached them to the 2nd round this yr, with a group that was overhauled twice in a year.. to me thats an accomplishment in itself to get everyone on the same page.. pay respects where theyre due.. not saying he's the best but he got us to where we are and has done amazing things here, as much as he's been questionable..

 

[SnowblindNYR]

All those people were wrong. I was never one of them. The thing with the Bruins is they have so many guys who could be a one time or another their best forward. So this playoffs it's probably been Kreijci, another block of games it can be Bergeron, another time it could be Lucic, or Horton, or Seguin, etc. That's how you win without a few "elite" players, and that model is good for sustained success year to year and game to game because it doesn't put all the eggs in one basket. We had some of that last year. We moved guys like Anisimov, Richards, Dubinsky, Hagelin, Stepan, Callahan, Feds, even guys like Prust and Boyle to a lesser extent (3rd or 4th) up and down the lineup based on who was hot and who wasn't.

Bergeron is an annual Selke finalist and Kreijci is a known great playoff performer. Neither is a Crosby/Malkin/Tavares but they're top notch players. I can't think of another team that is a contender with just depth and even that's not fair to Bergeron and Kreijci.

 

[Cake or Death]

grass isn't always greener with a new coach.. if i was picking a new coach it would be someone young and up coming.. get out of the mold of proven..

idk how people can hate on torts as much as everyone does.. he made ECF last yr and coached them to the 2nd round this yr, with a group that was overhauled twice in a year.. to me thats an accomplishment in itself to get everyone on the same page.. pay respects where theyre due.. not saying he's the best but he got us to where we are and has done amazing things here, as much as he's been questionable..

I have felt he's done a semi-poor job since he got here, and personally feel Lundqvist has more to do with us making the playoffs this season and in 2011 than anything else. But I will not detract from some of the good things Torts has done either. It's unfair to pick apart the things you think are not done well without giving due credit to the things that are done well. And there are things he does very well.

To be dead honest, and I have been saying this same thing since 2011, if a second assistant was brought in - someone with some tactical offensive prowess - to operate our breakout, transition and PP, I would be totally behind keeping the current coaches. But that does not seem to be on the horizon and, in spite of the things the coaches do well, the transition game and PP are costing this team a lot of games. There is simply no way to deny that.

Right now, however, I am just bummed we're down 3-0 and I don't want to chastise the players or coaches. I know the players and coaches all work hard and want to win. Regardless of how I feel about certain players or coaches, right now I'm just going to watch what may be our final game or games of the season and stand behind the team.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

grass isn't always greener with a new coach.. if i was picking a new coach it would be someone young and up coming.. get out of the mold of proven..

idk how people can hate on torts as much as everyone does.. he made ECF last yr and coached them to the 2nd round this yr, with a group that was overhauled twice in a year.. to me thats an accomplishment in itself to get everyone on the same page.. pay respects where theyre due.. not saying he's the best but he got us to where we are and has done amazing things here, as much as he's been questionable..

Watch the team play. Last year was one of the least impressive performances for an ECF team that I can remember. This year we're likely getting swept by a good not great Boston team. Just watch him play. People seem to think that our roster is garbage, it's not. Torts is garbage. I will throw a party when he gets fired and hope that the Devils hire him.

 

[Zil]

I love him.

Would want him or Tippet.

How do you figure Tippet is available?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

And this is the kind of **** Torts haters say that absolutely drives me up the wall. Do you guys actually think about the absolute horse **** you spew? Seriously. Come on.

I want them to win it all too; I'm not saying a fan should be ecstatic with any season that finishes with anything less than a cup. But can we have realistic expectations? Or, you know, at least be consistent with what we say and what is actually happening?

Ok. "Roster is now top 10 talent wise."

Last year, they make the ECF. The conference finals means there were 4 teams left.

This year? They're in the second round. There are 8 teams left.

Sure sounds like they're living up to the "top 10" roster level.


But keep moving those goal posts when the reality doesn't fit what you're sellin'.

First it was "OMG TORTS U SUK, TEAM WONT EVEN MAKE PLAYOFFS WITH TWO ELITE SCORERS." Then the team makes playoffs, so the tune gets changed to: "OMG TORTS ONLY COACHES FIRST ROUND EXITS, HE SO BAD. LAST YEAR WAS AN ABERRATION. JUST AWFUL." Team makes it out of the first round and has now been in the ECF and the second round in consecutive years (first time that has happened in over 15 years). The *****ing now reverts to: "OH **** U TORTS. CAPS ARE JUST AWFUL ANYWAY, ONLY REASON THIS TEAM MADE IT OUT. U STILL SUX. FIRED!"

---

There are some significant problems with Torts as coach (#1 being the PP). But he's a hell of a lot better than most of the other options out there right now (at least the ones I'm aware of), and brings a lot of good despite the things he does poorly. I'm not in the camp that thinks this roster is so bad that the team needs to be blown up - but the roster really isn't where it needs to be (especially with Staal and Clowe out). Some tweaking, however, and I think that it could get there.

Alain Vigneault would be awful. No thanks.

Actually, I'm not a Torts hater. Far from it. The only thing I've definitely asked for is to bring in a dedicated PP coach.

But the Torts lovers who throw ALL the blame at the feet of the players are wrong, wrong, wrong. I said it before and I'll say it again:

The GM is to blame.
The coaching staff is to blame.
The players are to blame.

It's all freaking three sides of the triangle that have screwed up. All three pieces of the puzzle need to get better and be accountable for their poor decisions.

 

[NikC]

the rangers came together as a team last year. Winning was great, the way we won... not so much. There is no reason why we have to make everything so difficult, but that is the product of Torts system. The man absolves himself from the responsibility of creating offensive in his system.

People are saying that the anti-Torts crowd is calling for us to play like the Pens and Chicago. No.
We should play better offensive hockey to compliment our defense, which by way is far from stellar.
This collapsing system that gives up the NZ at will is a liability.

There is zero creativity in this system. Just slavish adhearance or repercussions for some...
You cannot sustain winning soley on grit and determination over an 82g season/post season.
You need to win games in different ways. This man's system allows for none of that.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

The Nash trade was BAD for our cap. And no, we're not easily top ten talent wise right now. We're very top heavy, and our top guys are ******** the bed right now.

Look around the league at everyone's entire roster. Look at the youngsters that are on the cusp of playing for the Rangers compared to the top prospects everywhere else.

The Rangers are at the top 10 mark.

Most people outside NY think $3 mil a year for "Del Zaster" is a steal. Most teams would kill for Krieder. McDonaugh would be on the top pairing of 28 teams in the league right now. Nash would make any team's #1 line. Lundqvist is the top goalie by a mile. And yes, maybe 6-8 teams have a better backup netminder than Biron. Stephan, Brassard, Callahan, Hagelin, Staal, Moore, Miller, and Zuccs would be loved by fans of all other 29 teams.

Sweet mother of mary, you have a great lineup.

The problem is, this team doesn't fit the defensive 'jam mould' of last year's system. That's why the system needs to evolve and adapt itself to the new roster. The key is drilling that fact into Torts' head.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Actually, I'm not a Torts hater. Far from it. The only thing I've definitely asked for is to bring in a dedicated PP coach.

But the Torts lovers who throw ALL the blame at the feet of the players are wrong, wrong, wrong. I said it before and I'll say it again:

The GM is to blame.
The coaching staff is to blame.
The players are to blame.

It's all freaking three sides of the triangle that have screwed up. All three pieces of the puzzle need to get better and be accountable for their poor decisions.

Theres FAR more posters here willing to lay the lion's share of the blame on the coach.

The players are sacred cows, so long as they make under $5M per year.